Player Features and Ideas Discussion

2,531 =/= 25,310

anybody who gets ganked after that deserves it for not running a dcu II, which would get it up to ~65k ehp, which would take ~2-3 ganknados, which would cost as much as the hulk, which is fair.

it takes a billion isk of ganknado to pop a billion isk freighter amirite?

why does it only take 10m isk dessie to pop a 300m exhumer?

also, Orca has ~55k structure HP for no apparent reason, why not make it of rice paper also?

So in other words, it's a bit much…

It's not meant to be fair. By the way, if you tank your Hulk, it already requires 2 ganknados, so by that measure, it's already fair.

Because price is not a factor in balance, and because the exhumer is a resource collection vehicle, not a combat ship (and even then, the Hulk is already surprisingly strong for its size).

Also, what are you basing that “10M ISK” number on?

Because the 10m isk ships are combat ships designed to do damage, whereas the 300m ship is an industrial ship designed to mine ore. What is the justification for giving a barge it the EHP of a fully tanked Battlecruiser other than "I don't like being attacked in a PvP game"? Should all ships have EHP that scales with their market value while ignoring all other benefits of the hull? Maybe we should have a module that scales the EHP of haulers to be proportional to their cargo's Jita value?

If you don't like the risk/reward ratio there are things you can do that don't involve demanding changes to game mechanics or ship balance.

You can move somewhere else like low sec, where you know you're in danger if someone enters local or enters your belt. Plus you get better ores and don't have to pay for POS charters or have standings. All you have to do is put up with people trying to kill you, which is what you do now anyway.

Find an empty wormhole and scan down grav sites, there are plenty of emtpy W-space systems of various classes.

You could mine in cheaper ships. Knowing that you're vulnerable it would make sense to mine in a ship you can replace 10 times over, instead of one which you can't replace. Mine in a Coveter instead of a Hulk and minimise your losses when you die. If I go ratting in nullsec I'll prefer an easily replaceable BS over a deadspace fitted faction BS or Maurauder, because I know that at some point someone is going to catch me and blow it up.

Take responsibility for your own safety and prosperity and adapt to your circumstances instead of demanding changes to the game. Otherwise you may as well just be playing a single player game.

i docked my hulk up 100 days ago, wish i sold it now as market price is -50m since then.

since then im into PI and 3m sp into trading, winning the whole time

my orca has 53k structure hp for no apparent reason.. why isnt it paper thin also?

that u all are against only tells me that a handfull of people like ganking, that i already knew.

i am not demanding a change, its a suggestion, and i could care less if its implement.

my name says all that need be said.

Well, by that theory a lone Hulk is half a small fleet in volume, so it shouldn't be paper-thin either. I don't see how "Orcas are big and can carry other ships therefore they are very structurally sound" makes sense to you at the same time as you argue "Hulks are bulky and slow and carry lots of ore but they should be paper thin"



The 300m ship is an industrial ship designed to mine ore in hostile space. Lore-wise, it was made by ORE to mine in nullsec, ingame everywhere a Hulk goes is hostile space, pretty much.

If you really think that Hulk EHP is in any way balanced, allow me to offer up a comparison between 2 Tech 2 non-combat industry ships:

First, we take a Hulk that has been setup purely for tank. It looks like this:

[Hulk, Tanking Hulk]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium Shield Extender II
Small Shield Extender II

Modulated Deep Core Strip Miner II, Mercoxit Mining Crystal I
Modulated Deep Core Strip Miner II, Mercoxit Mining Crystal I
Modulated Deep Core Strip Miner II, Mercoxit Mining Crystal I

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

and according to EFT it has 29.6k EHP, with every module aside from the Strip Miners dedicated to increasing tank. To compare that, we have:

[Occator, Bulk Hauler]
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II

Small Tractor Beam II

Medium Cargohold Optimization I
Medium Cargohold Optimization I

which has 32k EHP, despite the fact that it's been fitted purely for cargo - that is, maximising its primary purpose and loading up on rigs and mods that actually reduce its structure and armor HP, and it's still 10% tougher than the max-tanked Hulk is. Oh, and this ship has a pricetag of about 1/3 the Hulk fit above. If you go for a more defensive fit and actually start throwing armor, resists and damcons on there it'll easy beat out that 65k you were complaining about.

So, are you going to start complaining that Transports are OP, or admit that Hulks are UP or have you got some sort of justification for why one non-combat Industrial should offer decent protection while focusing on its primary role and great protection when fit for it, while another non-combat industrial has no tank when focusing on its primary role and only has any defence at the cost of compromising its primary role?

Whilst I understand, and have been agreeing with so far, the argument that Hulks are fine as is I'm now starting to disagree.

Like the OP I've not bothered using any of my hulks for ~3 months now. There's absolutely no point in using a Hulk, tanked or not, in high sec any more. The only use for a hulk is in nullsec mining ops inside "secure" alliance space or in WH mining ops.

I expect there are quite a few people who are like us too in respect to not bothering to use a Hulk in high sec. It has nothing to do with being AFK or not paying attention to what you're doing. It has to do with the practicalities of mining operations. All those people that say "Mine aligned" don't ever do mining in anything other than solo ops because you simply can't. Unless you're going to warp to station to dump your load you simply can't mine aligned as you move out of range of the orca too quickly and are then completely vulnerable as you turn around and fly the opposite direction back towards the op.

They're simply too easy to kill, tanked or not. The risk/reward for using them to mine in high sec is our of whack now. I'm not suggesting any sort of change at the moment. I merely wanted to point out that there is a problem with Hulks as far as high sec miners are concerned. Obviously, there isn't a problem as far as those that like to kill hulks are concerned. Just like if hulks were given 100k hull there wouldn't be a problem as far as the miners were concerned but there would as far as those that like to kill hulks in high sec are concerned. Surely the situation should be brought more into the middle ground a bit so both camps can whine and be happy rather than it being so one sided as it is at the moment.

Counter proposal: CCP should ban characters that call themselves names like "trollin" and post intentionally provocative proposals laced with deliberate inaccuracies.

I too feel that T2 industrial ships need larger T2 tanks.

You'd think that industrial mining ships would have more structure than a battleship. As they need the structure to hold all the ore and support all the mass.

As it is now, you'd think it was all held together by wet paper and elmers glue.

What I tell everyone hullk tank whine thread:

You want high EHP? give up some yield and cargohold and mine in a Rokh. Exhumers are NOT intended to be tanky ships. They're supposed to be fragile, because they are built to do one job extremely well. If you can't defend your own mining op (hint: it's a lot easier to actually DEFEND in w-space or 0.0) then you shouldn't be flying paper miners.

To bad that RL money worth several months isn't taken into that account, because all you need a 21 day buddy trial and avoid the risk to your main. I still belive that all asteroid belts, reprocessing skills, and mining skills should be removed from game but if CCP won't do it just biomass your character as it works just as well.

But funny that, I do recall this other vessel where price isn't taken into account...its just a pain to train, build, and fly. What was it called...oh yeah...a Titan. It was designed as a fleet buster and was ment to destroy every ship on grid until the whines of a million crybabies rose up out of the silence (even the Jedi felt that one). Funny that...XL guns did just that as well as an AoE DD until it was nerfed. Oh, and its funny....a hulk pilot needs to fit tank so it doesn't blow up but a dude in a subcap doesn't need to fly something with sufficent tank that a sub cap ship doesn't blow up. Which means...its not the fault of the guy blowing you up, both the fault of both the hulk pilot and the sub cap pilot by not adapting in a way that doesn't result in them exploding (one fits tank, other flys a cap ship instead of a sub cap)...so un nerf Titan guns. Titan's are not OP, you just suck and refuse to find a way to counter it without whining to CCP.

But watch Tippia try to counter that logic...one needs to fit tank, other should fly anything but sub cap when facing a titan fleet. It is logical, fit tank on hulk or fly a bigger ship = you don't blow up to a destroyer or titan XL guns so easily.