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Tribal Liberation Force heroine accused of War Crimes!

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Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#201 - 2012-06-11 22:05:13 UTC
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:
I have to agree with Farel here. Tacit consent requires knowledge of these actions and a means to oppose them. By all accounts the Nefantar that knew and shielded the Starkmanir were a very small group of tribal leaders at the time, which is most likely why it even worked to begin with. From that time forward the number of Nefantar that knew no doubt grew proportionately smaller compared to those that didn't. Further each successive generation became more and more Ammatar simply because they were born into that situation. Likewise the amount of people that know of illegal slave raids and can stop them is a pitifully small amount of people.



Well, a means to oppose was, is, and always has been available. That they lack the 'balls' to do so is irrelevant. So I will dismiss that notion. More interesting is this idea you have of claiming they (the general public) had no knowledge of the Starkmanir, and how it excludes them from everything else somehow. Lets pretend that the Starkmanir do not exists, and I am making my claim based only on the actions they as a nation have taken. They have:

-Conspired against their fellow Minmatar to gain favorable conditions
-Taken their fellow Minmatar as slaves (not the Starkmanir, but they had others)
-Fought the other tribes when they rebelled, and retreated into Amarrian controlled areas after their defense failed.
-Stood up a government under the shadow of the Amarrians that was openly hostile to the Republic.



Which of these actions was the average Nefantar unaware of? Which of these did leadership 'sneak' by the populations?


And I am sure, when the newly arrived slaves entered into camp, they in no way EVER lead their new 'owners' to believe they were born into slavery. That line of reasoning is preposterous. Further invalidating that claim is that some number DID know, and DID react when the Elders decided to hold their hand, and DID leave the Mandate. Further validating mine is that MORE people NOW know, and still do nothing. The Ammatar government stands still, yes?


And I've answered on my opinions about the people in the sanctuaries, it does not bear repeating.
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#202 - 2012-06-11 22:09:25 UTC
Ssakaa wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:


Have you lost weight, there, Lyn Farel? Looking a bit malnourished. A bit pasty.

Also, what exactly is a kitz? And why are you kitzless? Did you mean kitsch?

Kitz, kitch, all the same to the mighty Murientor -and what is this recurring dirty laundry theme going on around here of late?



Sister, the best and only response to claims of that kind are one of two. You ignore the part of the message that is pointless, and speak to the issue they claim. Or you ignore the speaker as pointless. There are enough opposing our viewpoint that I chose the later.
Uraniae Fehrnah
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#203 - 2012-06-12 02:50:59 UTC
Ezra Tair wrote:

Well, a means to oppose was, is, and always has been available. That they lack the 'balls' to do so is irrelevant. So I will dismiss that notion. More interesting is this idea you have of claiming they (the general public) had no knowledge of the Starkmanir, and how it excludes them from everything else somehow. Lets pretend that the Starkmanir do not exists, and I am making my claim based only on the actions they as a nation have taken. They have:

-Conspired against their fellow Minmatar to gain favorable conditions
-Taken their fellow Minmatar as slaves (not the Starkmanir, but they had others)
-Fought the other tribes when they rebelled, and retreated into Amarrian controlled areas after their defense failed.
-Stood up a government under the shadow of the Amarrians that was openly hostile to the Republic.



Which of these actions was the average Nefantar unaware of? Which of these did leadership 'sneak' by the populations?


And I am sure, when the newly arrived slaves entered into camp, they in no way EVER lead their new 'owners' to believe they were born into slavery. That line of reasoning is preposterous. Further invalidating that claim is that some number DID know, and DID react when the Elders decided to hold their hand, and DID leave the Mandate. Further validating mine is that MORE people NOW know, and still do nothing. The Ammatar government stands still, yes?


Lets begin with the "balls" shall we? There are so many kinds of courage in the world, not just the courage that allows someone to stand up and block a hand from slapping them a second time. It took a great amount of courage to shelter the Starkmanir at all, knowing the Nefantar could just as easily be wiped out for the attempt had it been discovered early on. It took another kind of courage for the Nefantar tribal elders to resign their whole people to becoming villainy personified in the eyes of their own kin.

Then we have this notion that I'm trying to excuse the Nefantar general populace solely on the knowledge of the Starkmanir. I'm not, and never was trying to even suggest that. What I am saying is that it is simply impossible for every person to know enough of every crime to be able to act to stop it. Chances are that unless someone is directly involved in something like a slave raid, they will have no specific, actionable, knowledge of it that could be used to stop it.

Now your list, how lovely it is. Each and every point among the list boils down, in my understanding, to the actions taken in pursuit of a single desire, the desire to keep your loved ones safe. Certainly some very important Nefantar knew about the Starkmanir, and chose to play their part in a centuries long plan to help keep the Starkmanir alive. But it is also just as certain that a great many other Nefantar didn't know, and quite simply saw the writing on the wall. The Day of Darkness and for a good long time since, the Matari could not effectively oppose the Empire. Opposition, like that of the Starkmanir, was meet with total annihilation. I'm sure a great many Nefantar told themselves that their children would be safe if they simply accepted things and tried to adapt to life under the Amarr. It's amazing what a person will do for the safety and security of a loved one.

The other thing about your list, well specifically prefacing it with the phrase "as a nation", that is the part I have a great problem with. I can understand the hatred, and I can understand the reasons for it. All I am trying to point out is that hating a whole people is something I cannot understand. I cannot believe every single Nefantar helped to take slaves. I cannot believe every single one of them is guilty of some sort of wrong against the Matari people, especially not now after so much time has passed.

In all honesty can you truly hate an Ammatar that grew up knowing nothing but an Amarrian life, and hasn't done anything to actively harm a single Matari? An Ammatar that has concerned him or herself with providing for their family rather than the choices of their ancestors? An Ammatar that has grown up and been provided for, taught, and given opportunities to excel and advance in life within one system of government. Can you truly hate that person for having a life they don't want to leave behind?

I know I can't. I also know it could be said that those people have been bribed or conditioned or brainwashed, but I don't think that is the case. I think the fact of the matter is a great many people ( any people, not just the Nefantar or Ammater we've been talking about) care more about the immediate concerns of their lives, than the tragedies and crimes of people in the past.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#204 - 2012-06-12 03:19:34 UTC
As fascinating as it is to see all this playing out in a public forum for once, what really impresses me is that this whole conversation grew out of a Muck Raker article.
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#205 - 2012-06-12 04:46:03 UTC
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:

It took a great amount of courage to shelter the Starkmanir at all, knowing the Nefantar could just as easily be wiped out for the attempt had it been discovered early on. It took another kind of courage for the Nefantar tribal elders to resign their whole people to becoming villainy personified in the eyes of their own kin.

What I am saying is that it is simply impossible for every person to know enough of every crime to be able to act to stop it. Chances are that unless someone is directly involved in something like a slave raid, they will have no specific, actionable, knowledge of it that could be used to stop it.

Ezra Tair wrote:
(I've cut some parts of your posts for clarity, not because I wish to misconstrue your claim) That would be brave, except for a few items. The largest, and most inexcusable of which is that they took lordship over their brethren long before the bombing of Starman Prime. Since it spared them the lash, not because they have some sort of foresight to do so. Its not decades we are talking, its CENTURIES. Nothing brave about it, and the populace went along with it. As far as hiding the Starkmanir. I am not privy to the politics of the then Nefantar-Amarran relationship 300+ years ago. So I do not know exactly what danger they placed themselves in to hide the remaining Starkmanir. So I do not know, but unless some reveling new information comes forth, neither do you.

What I am saying is that non-knowledge of some small does not excuse you from knowledge and inaction on a larger issue. And that this larger issue was a persistent issue for almost half a millennia. Again, tacit consent. So one guy didn't know that a raid was made 2 week ago. But he knows raids do happen. Every single person in a nation does not have to be guilty for the nation to be condemned.


Now your list, how lovely it is. Each and every point among the list boils down, in my understanding, to the actions taken in pursuit of a single desire, the desire to keep your loved ones safe. Certainly some very important Nefantar knew about the Starkmanir, and chose to play their part in a centuries long plan to help keep the Starkmanir alive. But it is also just as certain that a great many other Nefantar didn't know, and quite simply saw the writing on the wall. The Day of Darkness and for a good long time since, the Matari could not effectively oppose the Empire. Opposition, like that of the Starkmanir, was meet with total annihilation. I'm sure a great many Nefantar told themselves that their children would be safe if they simply accepted things and tried to adapt to life under the Amarr. It's amazing what a person will do for the safety and security of a loved one.

The other thing about your list, well specifically prefacing it with the phrase "as a nation", that is the part I have a great problem with. I can understand the hatred, and I can understand the reasons for it. All I am trying to point out is that hating a whole people is something I cannot understand. I cannot believe every single Nefantar helped to take slaves. I cannot believe every single one of them is guilty of some sort of wrong against the Matari people, especially not now after so much time has passed.

Ezra Tair wrote:
To bad it was done at the expense of the other tribes, eh? And you are trying to imply no one has reason to hate them so? I can understand the reasoning. And most reasonable people will. But they choose their path, and they have consequences to bear for those choices. The issue at hand is not a mere slight of courtesy at a social function. They sold their brothers out to death and misery for life and security.

After so much time as passed? I have difficulty controlling this boiling rage at the idea that some significant time has passed, and that somehow acts as some penitence for what they did to us all. As though all is forgiven, with just time. And not even time away, or time in seclusion. But just time, watching and wondering the next raid on a remote outpost might cart away your lover or your best friend, or a relative. And if they might end up working for some Ammatar as a human horse.

If half the then Nefantar had died at the rebellion to create a stronger Republic, they would be counted as heroes despite their past. But they did not, so they are despised, as they should be.


In all honesty can you truly hate an Ammatar that grew up knowing nothing but an Amarrian life, and hasn't done anything to actively harm a single Matari? An Ammatar that has concerned him or herself with providing for their family rather than the choices of their ancestors? An Ammatar that has grown up and been provided for, taught, and given opportunities to excel and advance in life within one system of government. Can you truly hate that person for having a life they don't want to leave behind?

I know I can't. I also know it could be said that those people have been bribed or conditioned or brainwashed, but I don't think that is the case. I think the fact of the matter is a great many people ( any people, not just the Nefantar or Ammater we've been talking about) care more about the immediate concerns of their lives, than the tragedies and crimes of people in the past.


My response to the last two paragraphs is as follows: Their (Ammatars) prosperity is built on the backs of their dead brothers, if they do not recognize that, or refuse to understand that when confronted with it, or change their ways. They deserve death at those brothers hands. We will work to see them topple and fall into the pit of death they dug out around themselves.


If only minding your own damn business made you immune to it's consequences, then the Ammarians would have never invaded eh?
Ssakaa
Animatar Foundation
#206 - 2012-06-12 08:48:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ssakaa
Ezra Tair wrote:

Sister, the best and only response to claims of that kind are one of two. You ignore the part of the message that is pointless, and speak to the issue they claim. Or you ignore the speaker as pointless. There are enough opposing our viewpoint that I chose the latter.


Ezra, you're right. Incontrovertibly right as ever and the entire 'verse loves you for it. But as this particular agora of public opinion is often a place of bitter rancor, the nature of the b itch refuses to ignore moral nihilism (as distinct from dismal nefantar immorality) as a ware, which is a kind of weird admission when one stops to think about it.

Like I said, it's the nature of the b itch. Call it a not-so-guilty pleasure if you like.

Onwards.

With hyphens.

"Modern Life is Rubbish"
Kade Jeekin
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
#207 - 2012-06-12 10:30:08 UTC
CONS:

* The Nefantar ancestors did indeed betray the other Minmatar peoples

* They then embraced the Amarr culture and became the Ammatar, consigning the name "Nefantar" to the history books

* They have, in the main, persecuted the Minmatar people for centuries

* Some who defected to the Republic were slave owners and navy personnel


PROS:

* The wayfarer clans of Nefantar, returning from their wanderings rejected utterly the collaboration with the Amarr, and returned to deep space

* A minority of others clung to the Nefantar tribal traditions and have been persecuted and disempowered for generations (It was mainly these people that took the opportunity of the Elder invasion to flee to Republic space)

* Some of the leadership, not all, but some, attempted to atone for their ancestors' actions. Risking annihilation by working with the Minmatar Elders to preserve the Starkmanir bloodline


MY CONCLUSION:

I do not welcome those who rebels home with open arms and closed eyes

I do recognise that most who fled to the Republic did so because they do reject the Amarr culture and wish to re-establish the Nefantar tribe.

I suggest that those returnees have an uphill struggle to be accepted and must be humble, but not humbled.

I have flown with many rebel Amarr, to deny this right to rebel Ammatar, those who would be called Nefantar, would be stupidity.
Ssakaa
Animatar Foundation
#208 - 2012-06-12 11:30:38 UTC
Kade Jeekin wrote:


* The wayfarer clans of Nefantar, returning from their wanderings rejected utterly the collaboration with the Amarr, and returned to deep space.



This actually demands closer scrutiny.

"Modern Life is Rubbish"
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#209 - 2012-06-12 14:37:34 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
As fascinating as it is to see all this playing out in a public forum for once, what really impresses me is that this whole conversation grew out of a Muck Raker article.

You're not the only one. Thinking about it, it's probably the only funny thing in this thread after the claims that prompted the OP in the first place.Roll

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#210 - 2012-06-12 17:33:55 UTC
Kade Jeekin wrote:

MY CONCLUSION:

I do not welcome those who rebels home with open arms and closed eyes

I do recognise that most who fled to the Republic did so because they do reject the Amarr culture and wish to re-establish the Nefantar tribe.

I suggest that those returnees have an uphill struggle to be accepted and must be humble, but not humbled.

I have flown with many rebel Amarr, to deny this right to rebel Ammatar, those who would be called Nefantar, would be stupidity.



1-Nor do I, or most Minmatar.
2-Perhaps you are right, and perhaps the wayfarers might return sometime soon to bring further legitimacy to their cause. Would be interesting to hear of ones personal reasoning. Does anyone have a witness?
3-I agree, at a minimum
4-The enemy of my enemy is my friend, I can see the logic. Call it a healthy dose of hesitation for change and acceptance concerning them.
Dilaro thagriin
Doomheim
#211 - 2012-06-12 20:31:55 UTC
Ezra Tair wrote:

1-Nor do I, or most Minmatar.


Last time i checked, the Murentior did not speak for 'most' of the Matari people.
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#212 - 2012-06-12 21:35:22 UTC
Dilaro thagriin wrote:
Ezra Tair wrote:

1-Nor do I, or most Minmatar.


Last time i checked, the Murentior did not speak for 'most' of the Matari people.




You confuse me as a spokesperson for my tribe? I am almost honored.



No, I don't speak for 'most' Minmatar. I can however make reasonable observations. One of which is how poorly received the Nefantar have been. Unlike the Starkmanir or Thukker, which have their own challenges.

Unless you disagree with my observations?
Marin Baator
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#213 - 2012-06-12 22:05:47 UTC
Dilaro thagriin wrote:
Ezra Tair wrote:

1-Nor do I, or most Minmatar.


Last time i checked, the Murentior did not speak for 'most' of the Matari people.



You checked with whom?

The capsuleers of the Murientor Tribe are working on behalf of our civilian population, I have no doubt that our opinions are more representitive of minmatar public opinion than disciples of Aramon Khalid.
Safai
Yaqin
#214 - 2012-06-12 23:31:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Safai
Marin Baator wrote:
I have no doubt that our opinions are more representitive of minmatar public opinion than disciples of Aramon Khalid.


While I can't rightly say whether Dilaro Thagriin currently studies the teachings of the prophet Aramon Khalid—be it through the interpretation of FoG or EoM—I again would like to make it clear that any current association of him with our organization would be in error.
Ssakaa
Animatar Foundation
#215 - 2012-06-13 00:27:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ssakaa
A brief addendum to Marin's commentary.

The Murientor and friends also speak, legitimately, for the peoples of the Ani constellation in an attuned, perfect harmony through their Ani Tribal Assembly as they begin to carve out their destiny in a 'verse that even today detests them.

The Six Matari Kin of the Animataruu and their loyal brothers and sisters of Gallentean descent are restless and they don't need your permission, Dilaro thaagrin, nor indeed, that of any other nefantar sympathisers, to flourish and to be free.

"Modern Life is Rubbish"
Dilaro thagriin
Doomheim
#216 - 2012-06-13 13:40:33 UTC
Nice of you to both argue my point for me.

The Matari people of the Ani constellation, who as Ssakaa has stated have their own voice, and if they should so wish can make it heard, do not constitute the 'majority' of the Matari people.

The Murentior may speak for themselves, and may share the same belief as those who reside within the Ani constellation, but to claim to speak FOR them is akin to claiming dominion over them, and you are not their masters let them speak for themselves, if, as you so vehemently claim, you wish only for their freedom.

One point about the Six Kin corporation. At the time of it's founding, it was believed that only six of the clans of Pator survived. The Starkmanir were not one of these. While this has since been proven wrong, that simple fact should shed some light on the name and it's reasons. While you may have assumed otherwise, it makes more sense that it was named in memory of the Starkmanir, and after the remaining clans.

'The Six Kin of the fallen clan' ... Though, much like your own reasoning, this is merely conjecture.
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#217 - 2012-06-13 14:31:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Ezra Tair
Dilaro thagriin wrote:

One point about the Six Kin corporation. At the time of it's founding, it was believed that only six of the clans of Pator survived. The Starkmanir were not one of these. While this has since been proven wrong, that simple fact should shed some light on the name and it's reasons. While you may have assumed otherwise, it makes more sense that it was named in memory of the Starkmanir, and after the remaining clans.

'The Six Kin of the fallen clan' ... Though, much like your own reasoning, this is merely conjecture.



Ummm there are Seven Tribe if you count the Nefantar. The Nefantar, not the Starkmanir are excluded from that total. The Starmanir's lands (along with the Thukker Tribe) on Matar were held in trust (in case they came back), and returned. It is the Nefantar's holdings that were presumed abandoned and reclaimed by the Republic (yet another hole in the "we always knew they would be back" claim).
Ssakaa
Animatar Foundation
#218 - 2012-06-13 15:35:49 UTC
Dilaro thagriin wrote:

The Murentior may speak for themselves, and may share the same belief as those who reside within the Ani constellation, but to claim to speak FOR them is akin to claiming dominion over them, and you are not their masters let them speak for themselves, if, as you so vehemently claim, you wish only for their freedom.



The Murientor have long been affiliates of the Ani Tribal Assembly, Dilaro thagriin. A partnership of equals, in other words.

"Modern Life is Rubbish"
Dilaro thagriin
Doomheim
#219 - 2012-06-13 19:27:31 UTC
Ezra, this is getting tedious.

please stop mistaking the republic for the elders and vice versa. They are two very different entities.

Ssakaa, as i said then, let them speak for themselves. claiming to be their voice and their equal is a little hypocritical... no?
Luna Mori
AmmuNacionale
#220 - 2012-06-13 20:31:21 UTC
Dilaro thagriin wrote:
Ssakaa, as i said then, let them speak for themselves. claiming to be their voice and their equal is a little hypocritical... no?


The Ani Tribal Assembly's position concerning the Nefantar remains unchanged. Any claim to any part of the constellation by Nefantar/Ammatar corporations or individuals cannot be recognised as legitimate.

All of the Ani Tribal Assembly’s members actively support the rebel Matari militia in their war against slavery and the Amarrian Empire. The Murientor Tribe’s recognition of the need for justice concerning the Nefantar/Ammatar was considered of particular importance to the people of Ani. Consequently, they were invited to become members approximately two years ago.

They have assisted with the rescue of slaves from Amarrian operations; and are engaged in cultural and economic activities here. I have no doubt they have every right and authority to speak for and with the legitimate tribal residents of Ani.

General Secretary, Ani Tribal Assembly