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New dev blog: Unified Inventory Changes

First post First post First post
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
#281 - 2012-05-24 00:27:22 UTC
ok i had some quality time with the hubby and is calmed down and used it for a few more hours today.

When i sort items into different containers, drag and drop you know.. if you hover too long over the destination container it opens up instead and of course then you have to deselect the original place where you are moving stuff from. Can you please either lengthen the time for drag and dropping or make it so i have to click specifically on the target container.

It is soo annoying when trying to divide up quite large amounts of stuff that most of us industrialists deal with.
Ephemeral Waves
Alfonso's Volunteers
#282 - 2012-05-24 00:48:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ephemeral Waves
I'm not reading through all 12 pages to see if my points have been made already. But, seriously, somebody that actually plays this game needs to design the UI.

1) When I double-click my ship, my ship's cargo should open. I don't want the whole interface with tabs on the side and filters under it. I want to see the cargo on my ship. I want it to be in the same place it was last time I opened it and I want it to be the same size as the last time I opened it. And I need it to stay open when I change session.

I keep my cargo open at all times to monitor ammo levels, have boosters ready to go or to check how much LO I have ready for the next cyno.

2) When I open a lab or silo on my POS, I need it to open in its own window. I don't need it to replace my cargo hold because I likely want to drag something from one to the other

3) I want my corp hanger interface to have the exact same footprint that it did before this abortion was dumped in our lap. I don;t want a stupid tree thing on the side. I want the tabs across the top. That allowed me to quickly and intuitively switch between hangers. Making something 40% larger than the existing UI and then sitting back and saying "isn't it cool" is not good design practice.

4) I want the client to remember which windows I had open last time I docked so that I dont' have to open them again. I had them open for a reason last time I was docked and I still need them open. This was functionality that CCP has removed for no reason other than they obviously don't play the game.
The Executioners
#283 - 2012-05-24 00:54:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Maraner
I still have trouble believing this has been implemented despite all the post in the test thread, you guys are really digging in on this one arnt you.

The stupidity inherent in this and the rage from a large part of the community shows how badly you have miscalculated, that you had to put up a dev blog on this listing the fixes to a new feature that you pushed to the TQ is almost beyond belief.

I like almost everyone that I have spoke to in regards to the UI hate it. Roll it back now, or make it optional as it should have been from the beginning. There is very clearly another agenda at work here to explain why you have done this to us? I note the inane 'user centred design' mantra is missing.....good.

Very disappointed by this, its making the good stuff in Inferno be missed, suck it up and roll it back, this isnt going away. Do it now before you get INCARNA 2.0
Once Bitten
Para Bellum INC
Pandemic Horde
#284 - 2012-05-24 01:02:32 UTC

The question is how has this improved anything over the old functioning system.

New system takes more space
New system takes more time to operate at a pos or in a station where you have multiple ships cans and hangers to deal with.
New system generates messages (you can't access that item ) while traveling in space
New system links individual ships as a list rather than a hanger from which you can pick a ship from making it time consuming to switch ships and check the new cargo for ammo, and other charges in a pvp emergency.

If you have your cargo open in station on your active ship you have to close it to reaccess the corp hangers then reopen the cargo to do something as simple as reload a few more bits of ammo or ozone for a cyno.

The list of items , ships ect at a pos with a ship hanger and corporate hanger and some other mods not including the pos guns is just crazy when it is shared by a corp that builds and lives out of it so i do pitty those corps in wormholes or renter corps in 0.0.

Can someone pls explain how it has improved anything, i still don't see it. Maybe i need to log into a toon that has no corp, no cans and no assets to understand the utility of this new feature.

If it isn't eve offline it's glitch central and more patches needed.

Star Fleet Command was like that and it died

Ind Inc
#285 - 2012-05-24 01:11:13 UTC
Once Bitten wrote:

The question is how has this improved anything over the old functioning system.

to date, it hasn't, that's for sure and i won't try to tell you any different but, i will say that it does have vision behind it, i can easily see it being something i'm glad to have eventually when it's working properly, but give them time too, CCP knows without us telling them that if they let the game turn to **** we'll all stop paying, that goes without needing to be said typically.

honestly, this has no business being on live as is, NONE, this reeks of untested features inserted by those that will never have to deal with them, if you'd have had it on test for a reasonable amount of time and given everyone a nice LONG window in which to break it and actually LISTENED to what the people on test said it shouldn't have wound up being this bad at deploy, now who knows when but at some point it won't be a nuisance, annoyance or buggy as hell, but for now and with lack of proper testing, that's what we've got, it's not at all in their interest to leave it as is however.
Dennie Fleetfoot
DUST University
#286 - 2012-05-24 01:12:10 UTC
While I applaud and thank the digital gods that you're finally realising that Unifubared Inventory was a backward step in terms of functionality and counterintuitive (some of it I do like), I can't help but feel that if you'd listened, paid attention to what we'd been telling you on the test server forums for nearly a month, you wouldn't have had to write this Dev blog.

Still better late than never.

CEO Dust University

CPM 1&2 Member

Zentor Industries
#287 - 2012-05-24 01:17:53 UTC
You really need to do something about the way it builds the corp hanger tree. By the looks of it it goes through each hanger and builds the branches before displaying the top node. This is all fine and good until you have hangers with a lot of containers in them as it goes through those as well even if you have not intention of actually looking in that hanger. Result is a large delay when building the tree that is not needed.

Far better to build the branches when you expand the node.
Sarina Berghil
New Zion Judge Advocate
#288 - 2012-05-24 01:18:57 UTC
The biggest problem for me is that I need to hold down shift every time I'm about to open an inventory window. Can't we have a global option that let us revert the functionality? In the majority of cases I want a new window to open, not overwrite an existing one. When I forget to hold down shift, my 'work' is lost and I need to find that specific window view again. It's not so bad when docked in station, but if I'm multi-tasking in space and need to react with a moments notice, trying to wrestle the tree view takes too long.
I used the old system as kind of a workspace, setting up all windows so that they were easily accesible. The new system works against that way to use the UI.

I have a feeling that I'm doing it wrong. I can't really figure out how you intended the system to work for specific use cases. Currently I spend a lot more time manipulating UI elements than I used to.

I also don't like file browsers that use that design, but for OS UIs I often don't have a choice.
Bayushi Akemi
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#289 - 2012-05-24 01:26:46 UTC
Best case scenario:
- Default action opens new window, all windows have optional access to the tree (keep the index/filter hiding chevron), only currently open windows appear on the tree.
- When a can or pos hangar is no longer in reach, close the window (ie looted can, warped away from pos hangars)
- Corp hangar tabs have a new window spawn with [b]only that hangar's tabs[b] to reduce clutter.*
- Double clicking on ship hangar icons opens the cargohold again, not switch ships
- Make windows easier to maintain usability when shrunken (I want my cargohold and drone window stacked again)

- Add tree to assets window, as it's current state would be much better applied there

*Option would be a seperate coding, however, it would make using the tree a lot easier/more concise

Fundamental Problems with New UI. Also, see Tippia's post

Sarina Berghil
New Zion Judge Advocate
#290 - 2012-05-24 01:27:55 UTC
Messoroz wrote:
Here's an awesome video demonstrating the amazing 30 second load time it currently has at a POS:

30 seconds is extremely painful every single time you warp off grid and back. Also it likes to reload the entire UI anytime someone changes ships. Christ.

Yep this is extremely painful. It used to be that the loading delay only happened once every session. Now it needs to reload much more often.

All that reloading can't be good for the servers either.
Davion Falcon
Those Once Loyal
#291 - 2012-05-24 01:47:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Davion Falcon
So after :doing things: during my activities I've got some feedback:

1) There's a 0.5 to 1 second lag when doing...pretty much anything with the new inventory system. It's small, but gets aggravating.

2) Salvaging with a Noctis:

Previous functionality: Double click a bunch of cargo containers with loot, spam loot all button as it cycles through each container.

Current functionality: Double click a bunch of containers, little freeze each time container is opened causes a container or two to fail to open, pressing loot all causes another little freeze...and the inventory screen goes back to my ships cargohold rather than the next container, click next container, repeat.

Suggestions: Restore previous functionality of cycling through each cargo container/wreck rather than defaulting to the ship cargohold. A 'loot all nearby containers/wrecks' button.

3) Items dropped into a secure container at a station are locked even though it's configured to be unlocked on default. Bug?

4) Minimizing the 'My Filters' sub box, docking, heading back out, opening another container has the 'My Filters" sub box open again with the little arrows (whatever they're called) pointed upwards as if to open them...even though they're already open.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. Never forgotten, never forgiven.

Xen Investments
#292 - 2012-05-24 02:01:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Maul555
I am going to repost this from my Feedback on the Sisi feature, before it was released to TQ:

#526 Posted: 2012.05.10 16:08 | Report | Edited by: Maul555
CCP. I don't have the luxury of looking over this and deciding if this is a game that I want to get into and spend my time on. I have already invested some 9 years with you guys, I have wasted time, and I am invested. I have been doing things a certain way for 9 years, and you are about to force me to abandon all my current workflows. If this was a brand new game that I had never played, I would probably not get into it because of the unified inventory alone. (its a nice game, too bad its a B!7CH to use) Do not implement changes that interrupt business as usual. You are not a new game, this is not a time to reinvent the wheel and throw it out there on everyone's cars. People have developed habits and procedures that work and serve them well. You cant just kill that off now without serious repercussions.

Think CCP! You have had 9 years of great success with the current windowed interface. The most basic and universal thing in the game, the User Interface. You are talking about throwing out your proven foundation!THINK CCP, THINK!
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#293 - 2012-05-24 02:05:48 UTC
I've spent literally days reading ALL of 700+ posts on the Inferno feedback thread and most of the posts on the original UI devblog thread, so I'm not going to bother reading another 300 in here as frankly I'm getting very sick of it. So excuse me if this has already been posted or suggested.

So it seems you guys refuse to even consider going back to the old system, not even temporarily. This is like switching cars with wheels and brakes not properly bolted on and hoping you'll work on it along the way. Fine.. and you call us stubborn. In that case PLEASE get your priorities STRAIGHT, but don't stop half-way after the crucial stuff has been hotfixed either!

Before I start listing a thousand and one things, your #1 thing to fix should be all these damns bugs and lag. This has nothing to do with how it works or is structured but the much documented, recorded and posted about lag and issues need to stop as they're simply making the goddamn thing UNUSABLE. Waiting for half a minute or even minutes at a time to perform simple tasks that used to take seconds is not acceptable behavior. NEITHER IS COMPLETELY LOSING ALL YOUR ASSETS IN A STATION.
Yes, I'm mad bro, not because there's a problem with a new expansion on day 1.. or 2 but because YOU KNEW ABOUT ALL OF THEM BEFOREHAND, and you still pushed it through. What happened to realistic goals and quality content?

CCP GUARD... You need to take out your whip again and put it to action like you did on the website devs!!!

CCP SOUNDWAVE, your blog is a start, appreciate the initiative.

Now... on to the long laundry list of "problems" in no particular order:

  • Double clicking ships should open the cargoholds, not make the ship active.
  • Not sure if this is what you meant in your blog... but.. active ships need to be displayed in ship hangar view.
  • I can see packaged ships in my ships hangar view, but if others aren't able to see it (as per previous posts) this needs to be fixed.
  • Double clicking POS arrays should approach/open the said array as it did before. Currently it doesn't
  • Opening POS arrays should remember the last division opened and open that instead of the 1st division, much like it did before.
  • There is no way to open cargohold of ships in corp hangars. Double clicking does nothing, right click/open cargo opens the cargo of your active ship, not the ship in the corp hangar on which you attempted the command.
  • Obvious is obvioius, you need to figure out how to remember parameters for different windows in different locations. The parameters include: Size, location, pinned state, tree view, grouping (merged with other windows), sorting, view (Icon, details, list), columns
  • Detachable tree would be awesome.
  • Dedicated Inventory Shortcut on Neocom = Good start. You need to have separate buttons that you can add to neocom for different windows which open in a separate window if accessed via shortcuts (keyboard or icon) with remembered states. The include: Ships, Items, Corp Hangar, Deliveries, Cargo, Dronebay, but the more the merrier. Let us choose... if you can add buttons/shortcuts for Fuel bays, POS Arrays, Ore holds, etc. great. Possibly have the tree open only the relevant list (i.e. corp hangar divisions when opening corp hangar with all others collapsed)
  • If I read your (CCP Soundwave's) post correctly the loot window reverting to cargo instead of the next loot window after "loot all" is a bug being fixed. If it's not, it should be fixed.
  • Speed, speed, optimization, speed, efficiency... SPEED... needs to be improved.
  • Drag selecting items only shows selection after releasing the mouse. It should show highlights during the selecting process, not after.
  • The new UI is screwing badly with corp access rights.... fix it please. Half my corp can't function because of it.
  • All my ships and items have disappeared completely from assets in my main station.... NOT GOOD.
  • When you use a shortcut to open a specific bay, it will open in “separated” mode, with the tree view compact so you can quickly get the view you want = This is another good start. There should be an option to open items in a new window when double clicking.. much like you have with Show Info. If the option is selected, double clicking wrecks, ships cargobays, pos arrays, etc. etc. should open a NEW window just like with shorcuts.
  • Corp Hangars... currently a total mess. Sometimes they load half the divisions, sometimes they take a minute to load them one at a time, sometimes they randomly close and open and close again... WTF IS GOING ON?
  • Moving stuff between cans in corp hangars... I know I already mentioned speed but this one deserves a second rant. It took me 3 goddamn minutes to move 400 BPCs from one can in Hangar A to another Can in Hangar B. Same action used to take 3 seconds before Inferno.
  • Dragging stuff... It's just... weird... play with it, you'll see what I mean. It's not smooth, it drops off, it gets interupted, or stuck, or lags.
  • ISK Values... if this data is available, why is it not viewable in a column like meta levels?
  • I also suspect much of the lag is being caused by loading this sometimes unnecessary data (ISK Values, item count)... have an option to toggle them save space and time!
  • Dragging to a "tab" of a window should drop stuff in there as it did before. As already mentioned before it's broken right now.
  • Naming convention... what works in one view doesn't work in another. Please rename tabs after ship/hangar/division name (i.e. Blueprint Hangar instead of "Corporation hangars > Blueprints Hangar")
  • If possible have filters or search option that searches across the entire available inventory in your station so when using UI you dont have to check 7 divisions, and 50 cans to find a specific item whether it is in your personal or corp hangars.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#294 - 2012-05-24 02:05:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Niko Lorenzio
Here's a few more (some from me, some from others on the forums)

  • Allow filtering of the tree, such as just viewing corp hangars, certain containers, labs, wrecks, etc. Allow Custom sorting of the tree view. Fixed sorting as well.
  • Display the fill bar over the tree view. This will help a lot of people to pick the right container, confirm a transfer of goods and notify them when something is there. Make this optional so that people that don't need it to get flooded with even more info causing more lag.
  • It's very difficult to differentiate between different containers in the tree view. Listing the type of container and/or appropriate images (for ships as well) that can be toggled would go a long way to improve usability.
  • As mentioned before some sort of confirmation that you moved items to the right destination would be great. Fill indicator can do this, or a flash. Before with destination container open you could directly see the that items have been moved there.
  • Someone mentioned in the original devblog post about the ease of interacting with the UI depending on it's size. Right now it's more difficult to drop items into a tree view as the destination's height is low and close together to other locations. Few cm above or below and you can drop the items in the wrong location. Having an option to detach and change tree view to something bigger or even an assortment of square boxes would counteract this annoyance. Something similar to how containers appear in your items hangar.
  • Right click menus on Orcas/Caps to access different bays. I would imagine that the new UI is better than right clicking for this purpose but since this is turning into a collection of everyone's wishes, people want it, so bring it back please. I'd test the difference myself but CCP stole my Orca Evil
  • Folders for filters. Persistent filters. More filters (skills trained, ship race/type). Transferable filters.

Ran out of space.

Reserving this as I know there are a whole bunch of other things that I'm forgetting as I cant find the list on which I was writing down all the issues/problems on, but I'll add them here as I come across/remember them.

Thank you for your patience and excuse our rather harsh and vulgar language at times. While our replies could be more civil and constructive... our frustration and reaction should not come as a surprise to you.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Bob Niac
Gallente Federation
#295 - 2012-05-24 02:10:50 UTC
Personal thoughts:

"Merge Ship and Inventory windows" checkbox now does nothing. :sadface:

Local inventory was fine.

This type of UI would be nothing short of brilliant replacing the assets tab. THAT would b a welcome change. Corp assets as well. I am being sincere here.

[u]I <3 Logistics:[/u] Pilot of all  T2 logi and my shiny Archon [deceased.] Also a Chimera which may or may not be horrid. I don't make games, I play them. I get that ppl are passionate about change. I post here to plant seeds. You see your idea as is? Holy **** you win! So let's post, and see what the DEVs and our peers use.

Barbelo Valentinian
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#296 - 2012-05-24 02:20:24 UTC
Maul555 wrote:
I am going to repost this from my Feedback on the Sisi feature, before it was released to TQ:

#526 Posted: 2012.05.10 16:08 | Report | Edited by: Maul555
CCP. I don't have the luxury of looking over this and deciding if this is a game that I want to get into and spend my time on. I have already invested some 9 years with you guys, I have wasted time, and I am invested. I have been doing things a certain way for 9 years, and you are about to force me to abandon all my current workflows. If this was a brand new game that I had never played, I would probably not get into it because of the unified inventory alone. (its a nice game, too bad its a B!7CH to use) Do not implement changes that interrupt business as usual. You are not a new game, this is not a time to reinvent the wheel and throw it out there on everyone's cars. People have developed habits and procedures that work and serve them well. You cant just kill that off now without serious repercussions.

Think CCP! You have had 9 years of great success with the current windowed interface. The most basic and universal thing in the game, the User Interface. You are talking about throwing out your proven foundation!THINK CCP, THINK!

My thoughts exactly.

And it's not as if precisely the same sort of problem hadn't happened before, with the Incarna fiasco (disappearance of Hangar view, including things like double-clicking on your ship to open cargo).

What's starting to worry me a bit now is that if you look at what's happened with this Inventory, it's presented with smiles, but actually it seems like a continuation of the types of changes CCP wanted to make in the Incarna path of development.

Remember when they said we'd have back something like Hangar view? I now suspect that they weren't just talking about graphics: the "something like" is the new UI, a new UI that actually fits better with the CQ concept than the Hangar view concept.

I think they're just bullishly pushing ahead with the plans they had prior to Incarnageddon, as if the whole nightmare had never happened, as if they learned nothing from the substantial drop in subs last summer after Incarna.

The long and the short of it is, they've updated the UI code - fair enough. But they ought to have had the new UI code mimicking the old one, with the new additions (tree, filter) as options you could bring up for windows you needed them for.

This is exactly parallel to: they ought to have introduced CQ from the start as an optional thing (as it is now).

As a musician I know a bit what it's like when you're the creator of something others use. To an extent you're excited by new things you can do, and you sometimes lose sight of how others are taking what you put out, or override their concerns. That's not so bad for pure art, but this game is also a service as well as a work of art, and such a cavalier attitude to peoples' gameplay skills that they've developed over the years does not bode well.

#297 - 2012-05-24 02:22:20 UTC
I don't know what changes are going in immediately so this may no longer be an issue. Right now (as of this post), if I open a ship's cargo in space, and dock, and then re-open ship's cargo in station, when I undock I have two ship cargo windows, in the same place, as if it is creating a new window instance instead of attaching to the existing window ID.

I'm sure others have reported this, but even after configuring station containers to deposit items "unlocked", adding them via the tree while the contents are not in view will often "lock" the items added.

Please let the tree view remember when we have collapsed a node, and not automatically keep expanding it. Yes, I mean you, Ship Hangar node!

Please also default the in-station window to the in-station cargo bay, instead of the ship's cargo bay.

Here's a spanner for your cogs: allow us to open a window that displays "Active Ship" cargo. This would be a different node than the individual ship cargo nodes, even if you pick the same ship, and the contents change when we change ships. The in-space cargo button should default to this node instead of a ship-specific node.

Please allow us an option to search for items at any given node in the tree, regardless of how deep or shallow the tree is at that point.

There is wasted space within each window that could be put to use: move the volume display bar from the top to the bottom, and cut the height of the "status bar" in half, to recover some screen real estate.

Please have wrecks and containers in space open by default in their own child window; one unique window per wreck or container.

An "autoloot" configurable setting (or right-click option) would be nice. When flying to wrecks, you often may need to *ahem* open and loot quickly because time is of the essence. Previously, this was not an issue: the windows opened fast enough that, if you were paying attention like you should have been, you could click the "loot all" and keep right on going. This new Inventory has added significant delay, so by the time the option to "loot all" appears, you are already out of range of the container and must circle back. This extra delay could be fatal. If there were a way to tell the client to loot when you are close enough, that would compensate for this new latency.
Ind Inc
#298 - 2012-05-24 02:25:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mathieollo
honestly, for me, best case scenario would be mostly like it is now bugs and all aside except no cargo/inventory/corp hangars would be merged into this unified UI unless i checked a box or something explicitly setting it to be merged.

Jonuts wrote:
Mathieollo wrote:

they don't need to tell us why they want this so badly, the reasons are fairly obvious imo:
1. they want new players joining, the game has to look enticing to those who aren't current subs.
2. eve is notorious for being a spreadsheet war simulator, nuff said.

Sure, they don't *NEED* to. They really don't. It's a hell of a courtesy, and considering how many people are asking them to roll back to what worked, it's a courtesy they should very seriously consider. If we're stuck with this garbage, the least they can do is tell us why it's so god damn important that our inventory is a pain in the ass.

Also, how is this going to entice new players? That's a hell of a plan there! Lets make the game as ******* un-user friendly as we can to attract new players! Do you even listen to yourself?

well... sure how it currently functions, you completely and totally have a point there, but let's be honest with ourselves for a moment, the UI and inventory management in eve that we all have TOLERATED for so long is quite a pain in the ass and i honestly can't think of a single other game that has such a beast of a UI as a whole, until you get to grips with it and are comfortable with the old system it's a huge barrier to new players being able to understand it, granted, it's doing the opposite at current but as intended it would be a selling point to new players worried that they might not be able to win the fight against eve's notoriously confusing archaic UI.
#299 - 2012-05-24 02:39:28 UTC
One is persisting windows that only work in certain places (you have a window that only works in the station and you want it to be open and in the same location the next time you dock for example).

Some quick thoughts on this, since the wheels were already turning. Let's assume that each node in the tree has a unique ID. Right now, it appears the tree is dynamically generated at each login, so these IDs may change from login to login. That may be okay, that may not be okay. Some things might be easier to implement if this were generated and cached client-side, and persisted through logins.

When you display the Inventory tree to the user, everything the user does references node IDs.

Suppose you stored information about any child (separated) windows within the node data structure for each node the window references. So, if you shift-clicked the Ship Hangar node to open a child window, and move it around and resize it, the position and geometry of this window is stored with the Ship Hangar node data itself. The next time that the Inventory is asked to display a Ship Hangar window, whether manually or automatically, it checks for saved settings first and uses them if present.

(Should probably have some "sane" limit to the number of stored window settings in each node)

In this situation, I might drag an "Active Ship Cargo" link to my Neocom bar. Instead of creating an active node on the Neocom bar that must do the work of looking up what to open and what contents, it just creates a reference to the existing node within the Inventory tree that has already saved information about where the next few Active Ship Cargo child windows are to be opened, based on the past.

I believe it would be perfectly acceptable, and expected, for these saved window positions (as well as the shortcuts on the Neocom bar themselves) to disappear when the locally cached data is cleared.

Maybe just blabbering, maybe there's something useful there. Who knows, eh? :)
Xen Investments
#300 - 2012-05-24 02:55:19 UTC
I have to make more fuel blocks tomorrow.... I wish CCP was a fly on my wall so you could hear the curse fest that is about to come. I just have to grit my teeth and get through it if we want to keep our wormhole. Thanks a lot.