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Modules damaged without overheating after patch

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Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
Transgress
#61 - 2012-05-23 11:54:13 UTC
I know this error was spotted on SISI some time ago (sorry Tuxford), but apparently passed uncorrected. Well if you actually look at the module itself you will se that actual damage is in the order of 1e-15 out of 40. SO most likely rounding bug or machine epsilon bug.
Malice Redeemer
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#62 - 2012-05-23 11:55:27 UTC
Baldrik DeLeNoir wrote:
I have to say, Mr Tuxford owned up to his error, identified offending code and fixed in 24 hrs (if fixed). From my experience of Game programmers, this is quite exceptional behavior. The fact that the code has sat around for this long and no-one could be bothered to sort it out once and for all is more typical.Blink


this
Kiandoshia
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2012-05-23 11:57:20 UTC
I repaired some stuff for 230k ISK!!!! I want it reimbursed >:|
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#64 - 2012-05-23 12:00:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Teinyhr
War Kitten wrote:

I fly my ships into deep structure quite often. I have never, ever, taken module damage because of it. I have never heard of this feature and I troll the forums quite a bit.


Maybe you should....
*glasses*
Troll harder.

It has been around for forever, but the module damage you receive is so miniscule you are quite a lot likely to get blown up way before ever noticing it. If you really fly in structure all the time, you just don't remember getting module damage, because it for 100% sure has always been there.

And I agree with the gentlemen above me, the fact that Tuxford admits he (or someone working under him) made a blunder and that a fix is on the way is more than enough of an apology for me. Not that it was a huge inconvenience anyway, at least to me personally, the repairbills were hardly astronomical ( maybe 100k in all thus far?) even in with some faction/t2 mods.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#65 - 2012-05-23 13:12:38 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
War Kitten wrote:

I fly my ships into deep structure quite often. I have never, ever, taken module damage because of it. I have never heard of this feature and I troll the forums quite a bit.


Maybe you should....
*glasses*
Troll harder.

It has been around for forever, but the module damage you receive is so miniscule you are quite a lot likely to get blown up way before ever noticing it. If you really fly in structure all the time, you just don't remember getting module damage, because it for 100% sure has always been there.

And I agree with the gentlemen above me, the fact that Tuxford admits he (or someone working under him) made a blunder and that a fix is on the way is more than enough of an apology for me. Not that it was a huge inconvenience anyway, at least to me personally, the repairbills were hardly astronomical ( maybe 100k in all thus far?) even in with some faction/t2 mods.


I'll take your word for it I guess. I've never seen modules take damage from being in structure - but I generally don't look at the damage report either for miniscule amounts, I just fix it all and fly on. I only ever looked at the green/red circles around my modules and don't recall ever seeing any visible damage there.

I still think if you're tweaking or repairing code that hasn't worked correctly for ages, trying to fix whatever bug is causing the miniscule damage to be proper damage, you ought to inform the players (and test the changes).

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Commander A9
This Was The Way
Homicidal Tendencies.
#66 - 2012-05-23 13:21:38 UTC
I appreciate CCP's speedy response to this bug.

Question: will CCP reimburse pilots for any repair bills filed as a result of this bug?

Recommendations:

-enable ships wobbling in hangar view (pre-Captains Quarters)

-add more missions (NPC fleet vs. NPC fleets that actually shoot)

-STOP NERFING EVERYTHING!

Join Live Events!
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#67 - 2012-05-23 14:38:53 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
I have had modules damaged when I escaped a few fights with like 1-2% hull left.

Yeah, I've seen it too, in 'skin-of-my-teeth' escpaes, and it makes perfect sense. Once your armor is breached. Or even seriously compromised.

But when you're shileds are still robustly solid? Nuh-uh.


Anyway, I'm confident it's been fixed. But still am disturbed that tinkered code was allowed to roll live without testing. Back when *i* did software development (not all THAT long ago), that was a 'fired day before yesterday' offense.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Disdaine
#68 - 2012-05-23 14:54:00 UTC
Commander A9 wrote:
I appreciate CCP's speedy response to this bug.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=109797&find=unread

Reported a week ago in test server feedback....
Gorki Andropov
I Dn't Knw Wht You Wnt Bt I Cn't Gve It Anymre
#69 - 2012-05-23 15:14:28 UTC
CCP Tuxford wrote:
This is likely my fault, I've been tinkering around with the code that applies the damage (I know scary ****) and as a result this might have changed. There has always been a feature where damage is supposed to leak to the modules but it might very well be that we start leaking a bit too early now.

What ships were you guys flying and did you take a lot of hull damage?

nvm some of you said only slight shield damage. I'll take a look tomorrow morning.



If you could take a look now - as your fiddling seems to have caused this - this would be appreciated.
Gorki Andropov
I Dn't Knw Wht You Wnt Bt I Cn't Gve It Anymre
#70 - 2012-05-23 15:15:28 UTC
Commander A9 wrote:
I appreciate CCP's speedy response to this bug.

Question: will CCP reimburse pilots for any repair bills filed as a result of this bug?



"Scuse me Mr CCCP, can you giev me cash plox for my repairs?"

"What cash do you want?"

"Spacebux"

CCP walks off laughing
Savage Angel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2012-05-23 15:16:21 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
I have had modules damaged when I escaped a few fights with like 1-2% hull left.

Yeah, I've seen it too, in 'skin-of-my-teeth' escpaes, and it makes perfect sense. Once your armor is breached. Or even seriously compromised.

But when you're shileds are still robustly solid? Nuh-uh.


Anyway, I'm confident it's been fixed. But still am disturbed that tinkered code was allowed to roll live without testing. Back when *i* did software development (not all THAT long ago), that was a 'fired day before yesterday' offense.


I doubt it was with no testing - it was likely that the testers did not think outside of the test case. The code is supposed to damage the underlying stuff when the layer above is low. I bet they tested that and it works fine. They just didn't think to check what happens when the layer above is full.

Anyone working in a complex codeset with screaming customers wanting new features Now Dammit (I do) will understand how it happens. It sucks, and is not a good business practice, but it will happen. At least the damage from this one was minimal, just a tiny bit of ISK compared to the ship you are flying.
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#72 - 2012-05-23 16:13:29 UTC
i do suffered from leaked damage onto modules while being on hull, but only on extreme cases where i used to warp away at 4% hull or even less :( would be nice if it were to get fixed so modules take more damage when at hull.


plus i too support the idea of modules Wear, turrets, and active modules in general should deteriorate over time.
Sabren Bel
Doomheim
#73 - 2012-05-23 16:18:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabren Bel
Just ran a bunch of missions in a Tengu and Rattlesnake and can confirm that this has been fixed.

Thanks for the quick response.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#74 - 2012-05-23 17:03:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
AkaiDruiD II wrote:
Same here, mods and rigs dmged. This is one buggy update, I'm rly confused about what the update was for now O_o
Useless inventory boxes, added lag for missle smoke trails, which is ridiculous, cause there would be no smoke trails in the void of space. WTF is goin on there over at ccp?

If your trying to win an award for "Worst update ever released by a software company", I think u may have won it with this P O S


no.. 90% of the players havent quit... I think that award would go to NGE or CU
Compared to THAT this is a non issue

OR the Boot.ini issue

Well I dunno, there was a Japanese (I think) MMO company that deleted all the game data during a downtime and didnt have any backups, so they effective lost the entire game. I dont think it gets worse than THAT

AkaiDruiD II wrote:
I'd ask about the resculpting option, cause I don't seem to have it. But, I'm assuming this, too, is another bug.
I doubt I've found half of the bugs that this update is likely to have, because I've been mostly docked the whole time. I've gone out to do an L4, that took twice as long to finish due to the lag created by missle "trails"(in the vacuum of space O_o), and the inability to loot wrecks now with this new crappy inventory box setup.
And yes I've disabled and tried the 'no missle trail' option, lag is gone but apparently so is the missle, it apparently is fired and does dmg, but seems to travel in another dimension because its not visible at all :P lol


Sorry but they shouldnt have to not update the game cause your computer sucks.
Like that one update that made it so a certain % of the game couldnt play anymore.

Get a better PC

And dude, I have a PC I bought on the cheap (less than $400) like 4 years ago.... and I dont have the issue youre talking about
ATI Radeon 4650 lol my **** is olllld

edit: fixed thanks to dev's explanation

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#75 - 2012-05-23 17:10:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
silens vesica wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
AkaiDruiD II wrote:
Same here, mods and rigs dmged. This is one buggy update, I'm rly confused about what the update was for now O_o
Useless inventory boxes, added lag for missle smoke trails, which is ridiculous, cause there would be no smoke trails in the void of space. WTF is goin on there over at ccp?

If your trying to win an award for "Worst update ever released by a software company", I think u may have won it with this P O S


Smoke is essentially particles of matter and gases.. what about that wouldn't be visible in space? Besides, I watched the Falcon9 launch last night and there was definitely smoke trails of a sort coming off the booster when the were achieving orbit before deploying the solar panels and heading off to the International Space station.

There are many hundreds, likely thousands, of clips of engine burns in actual space, and you can see that they don't, in fact, leave visually-detectable trails in space. Any particulate dense enough to leave a visible trail at missile speeds in space basically means your missile's engines are full of non-performing particulate matter*, and have been designed by drunken monkeys.


*Read: Waste of mass, adding expense and lowering performance.


Our modules damage themselves by firing them and you think they werent made by alcoholic monkeys?

AkaiDruiD II wrote:
The evidence is clear; with the recent degrade of updates and the ancient, Earthly thinking. The developers and coders at ccp are either;
1. Extremly old and have yet to discover a lightbulb.
or
2. Extremly young and not out of diapers yet.
;P


Jeez, this guys tears are like an energy drink

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Malice Redeemer
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#76 - 2012-05-23 17:14:10 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
I have had modules damaged when I escaped a few fights with like 1-2% hull left.

Yeah, I've seen it too, in 'skin-of-my-teeth' escpaes, and it makes perfect sense. Once your armor is breached. Or even seriously compromised.

But when you're shileds are still robustly solid? Nuh-uh.


Anyway, I'm confident it's been fixed. But still am disturbed that tinkered code was allowed to roll live without testing. Back when *i* did software development (not all THAT long ago), that was a 'fired day before yesterday' offense.


That make so much sense, seeing as eve runs my life support machines here.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#77 - 2012-05-23 17:17:57 UTC
Alison McCarty wrote:

Let anyone who have a clue do the Job and then after some testing you make an entry in the patch notes and everything is fine. Project Managment, Testing and Qualitiy Managment anyone ?

Can some real DEV give a statement about it please ? Is it a bug or a feature and where is the entry in the patch notes about it ?



I have a feeling that person doesnt work there anymore, or there wouldnt be code they "dont know what it does"

Gotta understand... They fire guys and rehire other ones. If the fired guy doesnt properly document what the code does (he got fired for some reason....) the guy coming in wont know wtf it does... they should just let it sit and hope the new stuff they add into the game doesnt conflict with the stuff they dont know what it does?

Does that make sense to you?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Malice Redeemer
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#78 - 2012-05-23 17:19:06 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
AkaiDruiD II wrote:
Same here, mods and rigs dmged. This is one buggy update, I'm rly confused about what the update was for now O_o
Useless inventory boxes, added lag for missle smoke trails, which is ridiculous, cause there would be no smoke trails in the void of space. WTF is goin on there over at ccp?

If your trying to win an award for "Worst update ever released by a software company", I think u may have won it with this P O S


Smoke is essentially particles of matter and gases.. what about that wouldn't be visible in space? Besides, I watched the Falcon9 launch last night and there was definitely smoke trails of a sort coming off the booster when the were achieving orbit before deploying the solar panels and heading off to the International Space station.

There are many hundreds, likely thousands, of clips of engine burns in actual space, and you can see that they don't, in fact, leave visually-detectable trails in space. Any particulate dense enough to leave a visible trail at missile speeds in space basically means your missile's engines are full of non-performing particulate matter*, and have been designed by drunken monkeys.


*Read: Waste of mass, adding expense and lowering performance.


I'm pretty sure, the "rule of cool" is at play here, same as laser turret recoil

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2012-05-23 17:21:07 UTC
Alison McCarty wrote:
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
CCP Tuxford wrote:
This is likely my fault, I've been tinkering around with the code that applies the damage (I know scary ****) and as a result this might have changed. There has always been a feature where damage is supposed to leak to the modules but it might very well be that we start leaking a bit too early now.

What ships were you guys flying and did you take a lot of hull damage?

nvm some of you said only slight shield damage. I'll take a look tomorrow morning.


Wait youre saying its partially intentional? IS this meant to be a new ISK sink then?

And how often is it SUPPOSED to be happening? Cause seriously, how shittily made ARE these modules O.o

Or are we getting new Star Trek shields?

Seriously, watch Undiscovered country some time. When the hole is BLOWN THROUGH THE SAUCER someone says theyre down to 25% shields lol


Let me clarify. Every layer leaks a bit of damage to the next layer when it is sufficiently damage. You start taking a little armor damage while still having some shield remaining and you start taking some hull damage even though have some armor left. This is especially obvious when shooting some structures in missions. However a little known fact is that when your structure gets low then your module take damage. However by that time your structure is so low that you likely exploded and there is a chance that the ship exploded before there was chance to damage the modules. So to sum up, yes this is a feature and always has been but you've likely never noticed it.

As to why mess with stuff that isn't broken. Well it may not seem like broken to you guys but it was broken to us. The code was so complex and weird (and not a single comment in sight) that nobody dared touch it. That is usually not a good place to be in because it means if we want to make any changes to it we need to either, hack it in to the current code and hope it works or simply rewrite it in a way we understood. We opted for the latter.


Sorry mate don't take it personal but thats a lot of BS and a lot of words. Our mods NEVER EVER did take damage when we undock/dock er our shields are up. there might be some crazy code that got used in some rare cases but what happens here is completly different.
Why are you guys always playing around with something you have no idea about ? you have some crazy Code in front of you and have no idea what it does. Just DO NOT touch it. Let anyone who have a clue do the Job and then after some testing you make an entry in the patch notes and everything is fine. Project Managment, Testing and Qualitiy Managment anyone ?

Can some real DEV give a statement about it please ? Is it a bug or a feature and where is the entry in the patch notes about it ?


Let me clarify his response for you: There was NO dev who had a clue about this piece of code anymore. It was badly written and uncommented code. Thats why they decided to rewrite it, so somebody could actually usefully work with it (in the future). The rewrite was not supposed to lead to any changes ATM. They rewrote the code, put it on Sisi (and probably tested it somewhat, to see if sth. was broken). They did not notice that some damage-leaking to modules now ocurred earlier than it should (which is a minor issue, anyway). So they are now going to look at it and fix it.

What is the big deal?
Mr Bimble
Lost Ark Enterprises
#80 - 2012-05-23 17:23:56 UTC
After an easy mission run with no damage to either ship.100% shields armour and structure had a repair bill for all guns.No money made from that mission.