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OMGMERLIN

First post
Author
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#41 - 2012-05-23 14:56:29 UTC
Vito Antonio wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
This is still unfortunate we couldn't get more than a handful of frigates rebalanced for Inferno, but we hopefully should be able to ramp the effort up in the near future. P

I'm not a software developer but somehow It feels like changing a few variables here and there doesn't take too much time.


Oh no, you are absolutely right, changing a few variables here and there is easy. The hard part consists of:


  1. Balancing the stuff you tweak so it's not completely out of whack with the rest of the game

  2. Communicating the changes for internal and external reviews and gathering notes from them

  3. Iterating X amount of times on step 1 and 2 until you are satisfied with the results

  4. Testing the changes, making sure the you have migration plans from internal to release servers (for example, removing missile hardpoints on the Merlin caused a Sotfware Engineer and QA Tester to stay both in for 19 hours last week-end because I stupidly forgot to let people know this would require a script to automatically remove fitted lauchers from your ship to cargohold Oops)

  5. Coordinate with the people responsible for external releases and communication (patch notes, news item etc...)


You may even have more steps when creating new ships as you constantly need to keep in touch with the Art Department to make sure model/visuals match the designed purpose of the ship.

It's not just Software Development, it's also Game Design, Quality Assurance, Art and Community teams being involved.So not saying it is the most difficult thing we have to do, but it's no easy 5 minute task either Blink
Malice Redeemer
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#42 - 2012-05-23 14:57:47 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Vito Antonio wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
This is still unfortunate we couldn't get more than a handful of frigates rebalanced for Inferno, but we hopefully should be able to ramp the effort up in the near future. P

I'm not a software developer but somehow It feels like changing a few variables here and there doesn't take too much time.


Oh no, you are absolutely right, changing a few variables here and there is easy. The hard part consists of:


  1. Balancing the stuff you tweak so it's not completely out of whack with the rest of the game

  2. Communicating the changes for internal and external reviews and gathering notes from them

  3. Iterating X amount of times on step 1 and 2 until you are satisfied with the results

  4. Testing the changes, making sure the you have migration plans from internal to release servers (for example, removing missile hardpoints on the Merlin caused a Sotfware Engineer and QA Tester to stay both in for 19 hours last week-end because I stupidly forgot to let people know this would require a script to automatically remove fitted lauchers from your ship to cargohold Oops)

  5. Coordinate with the people responsible for external releases and communication (patch notes, news item etc...)


You may even have more steps when creating new ships as you constantly need to keep in touch with the Art Department to make sure model/visuals match the designed purpose of the ship.

It's not just Software Development, it's also Game Design, Quality Assurance, Art and Community teams being involved.So not saying it is the most difficult thing we have to do, but it's no easy 5 minute task either Blink


great post
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#43 - 2012-05-23 15:01:02 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
You made me laugh and now the people I work with are looking at me

There's no way I can explain to them...
But you didnt click on the "like" button ! How dare you !
I'm gonna **** your kug|_| reputation. X

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#44 - 2012-05-23 15:28:43 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Testing the changes, making sure the you have migration plans from internal to release servers (for example, removing missile hardpoints on the Merlin caused a Sotfware Engineer and QA Tester to stay both in for 19 hours last week-end because I stupidly forgot to let people know this would require a script to automatically remove fitted lauchers from your ship to cargohold Oops)

Y'know, this isn't the first time that the H/M/L layout for a hull has changed. I daresay it probably isn't the first time that someone forgot to think about the deployment "fixup" script(s) until rather late in the process. One would think that by now someone would have a list of things to check when altering hulls. My modest proposal is that we call such a list of things to check a "checklist", and that we have a defined process for hull changes.

Just sayin'. PP

MDD
Maximille Biagge
Hydra Eternal
#45 - 2012-05-23 15:46:28 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
subtle turtle wrote:
LOL. You clearly don't fly frigates in PVP. While in some circumstances a MWD is needed, for the most part you fly within scram range, particularly on this fit (did you miss the part where the range is WELL within scram range?). Also, with a MSE2 and a MWD, the sig on a merlin would be cruiser size, and all those battleships you are afraid of will have crushed you long before even your MWD speed would get you under their guns. AB is the right prop mod for a brawler frig. I apologize for assuming that everyone already knew that.


Ok, here's a nice common PvP scenario: you land 15km from a nanocane.

If you have a MWD, you might be able to get into web/scram range, or at least run away.

If you only have an AB, your only hope is to immediately warp out and hope you escape before the Hurricane gets a lock and point on you. The Hurricane is significantly faster than you, and will immediately be moving away from you. Transversal drops to zero, you take 100% EFT dps, and you pop in seconds.

Since the same is also true of pretty much every single other ship with medium guns, the only time an AB setup is anything other than suicide is when you have an arranged 1v1 with another frigate and a reasonable expectation that they are not using a MWD/kite fit.


Holy hell guys, this dude just pointed out that a merlin might lose a fight with a cane, yes well done smart guy.

MWD or AB, you are still going to get absolutely destroyed by a nanocane seeng as as he likely has amazing frig killing guns, warrior IIs and 2 medium neuts. so you if stay within blaster/scram/web range you wont have any cap at all and if you try to run he is just going to 2 shot you.

The absolute only thing you should be doing if you land 15km from a cane in a merlin is running.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#46 - 2012-05-23 17:03:55 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
How do you like them apples uh?

Glad you enjoy the Merlin, we love it when a plan comes together. This is still unfortunate we couldn't get more than a handful of frigates rebalanced for Inferno, but we hopefully should be able to ramp the effort up in the near future.

Now, go forth, dear minions, your frigates shall blot out the sun, go get some Tormentor / Punisher / Incursus and give us some feedback on those as well! P



any chances you are going to review resistance bonus to repair bonus?

pretty much resistance bonus makes internal reps better ehp better and imcoming RR better...

but repair bonus only makes internal reps better Ugh

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

spacelumberjack
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-05-23 17:13:18 UTC
as long as my standard thrasher can still kill it, its not all powerful.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#48 - 2012-05-23 17:22:21 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Vito Antonio wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
This is still unfortunate we couldn't get more than a handful of frigates rebalanced for Inferno, but we hopefully should be able to ramp the effort up in the near future. P

I'm not a software developer but somehow It feels like changing a few variables here and there doesn't take too much time.


Oh no, you are absolutely right, changing a few variables here and there is easy. The hard part consists of:


  1. Balancing the stuff you tweak so it's not completely out of whack with the rest of the game

  2. Communicating the changes for internal and external reviews and gathering notes from them

  3. Iterating X amount of times on step 1 and 2 until you are satisfied with the results

  4. Testing the changes, making sure the you have migration plans from internal to release servers (for example, removing missile hardpoints on the Merlin caused a Sotfware Engineer and QA Tester to stay both in for 19 hours last week-end because I stupidly forgot to let people know this would require a script to automatically remove fitted lauchers from your ship to cargohold Oops)

  5. Coordinate with the people responsible for external releases and communication (patch notes, news item etc...)


You may even have more steps when creating new ships as you constantly need to keep in touch with the Art Department to make sure model/visuals match the designed purpose of the ship.

It's not just Software Development, it's also Game Design, Quality Assurance, Art and Community teams being involved.So not saying it is the most difficult thing we have to do, but it's no easy 5 minute task either Blink



If only your colleges doing UI could be that professional we wouldn't have this "window" messing my game experience.

brb

Salo Aldeland
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2012-05-23 17:51:42 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Vito Antonio wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
This is still unfortunate we couldn't get more than a handful of frigates rebalanced for Inferno, but we hopefully should be able to ramp the effort up in the near future. P

I'm not a software developer but somehow It feels like changing a few variables here and there doesn't take too much time.


That part probably takes about 5 minutes.

Deciding what to change them to, on the other hand....


Theory crafting, deciding, then putting the changes into a test bed or a branch, then building, then deploying, then testing, then repeating. Adds up. As unsatisfying as a trickle of ships is, you really don't want them to rush it. And I like that they're putting out the ships that are already done instead of holding them all for some time in the Near Futureā„¢. Whets our appetites and lets them test their hypothesis in the wild.
Andrea Griffin
#50 - 2012-05-23 17:58:15 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
How do you like them apples uh?
I'd like to thank you again for bringing the frigate changes to us before they were final, and having the time to make adjustments before the Inferno release.
Greg Valanti
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2012-05-23 18:15:05 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:

any chances you are going to review resistance bonus to repair bonus?

pretty much resistance bonus makes internal reps better ehp better and imcoming RR better...

but repair bonus only makes internal reps better Ugh


Exactly how often do you use your neutral guardian alt to rep a T1 frigate?
Delucian
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#52 - 2012-05-23 19:05:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Delucian
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
How do you like them apples uh?

Glad you enjoy the Merlin, we love it when a plan comes together. This is still unfortunate we couldn't get more than a handful of frigates rebalanced for Inferno, but we hopefully should be able to ramp the effort up in the near future.

Now, go forth, dear minions, your frigates shall blot out the sun, go get some Tormentor / Punisher / Incursus and give us some feedback on those as well! P


Well since you asked (and there may be some of this here already TLDR), but;

...while the updates are nice, if you are a Merlin, Incursus or Punisher pilot, you castrated the Rifter in the process - I would be fine if the Rifter got some level of buff to keep it ... what is that word that keeps getting thrown around .... oh, yea - balanced!

I fly all of them (although the Puny much less so) and having an Incursus that is capable of 275 DPS or a 8+k tank while still keeping over 200 DPS - I mean seriously?

Max skills with implants and overheat you get sub-200 DPS out of a Rifter and to get it tank will be 4-5k - maybe.

...and before everyone chimes in with "Kite fit", yea, I get it and tried it last night - without going to a long point and long range kite, Null still hits like a hammer at the same ranges and your rockets become dicy at best at range.

Do I like the changes - sure, I can now solo even more cruisers, bc's, etc in these other ships.

Do I like the death of the Rifter - not so much.

Flame away....

Edit: oh and before someone gets the thread off track - yea I am in RvB - yea I know no one thinks its real PVP - yea, I mean solo work - etc.. bla, bla, bla...
Ymmi Stenson
Future Overlords
#53 - 2012-05-23 19:10:20 UTC
Solaris Ecladia wrote:
Merin Ryskin wrote:
subtle turtle wrote:
AB


There's your problem. Try fitting a legitimate pvp setup instead, and the numbers drop quite a bit.

Quote:
speed is 953m/s cold with a limited AB.


Which is slower than most battleships. Have fun being kited and insta-killed by everything smaller than a titan.


I know what you mean. Those 1000+ m/s Carriers can be a real pain in the *****....

LMAO Big smile
Haulie Berry
#54 - 2012-05-23 19:15:21 UTC
Delucian wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
How do you like them apples uh?

Glad you enjoy the Merlin, we love it when a plan comes together. This is still unfortunate we couldn't get more than a handful of frigates rebalanced for Inferno, but we hopefully should be able to ramp the effort up in the near future.

Now, go forth, dear minions, your frigates shall blot out the sun, go get some Tormentor / Punisher / Incursus and give us some feedback on those as well! P


Well since you asked (and there may be some of this here already TLDR), but;

...while the updates are nice, if you are a Merlin, Incursus or Punisher pilot, you castrated the Rifter in the process - I would be fine if the Rifter got some level of buff to keep it ... what is that word that keeps getting thrown around .... oh, yea - balanced!

I fly all of them (although the Puny much less so) and having an Incursus that is capable of 275 DPS or a 8+k tank while still keeping over 200 DPS - I mean seriously?

Max skills with implants and overheat you get sub-200 DPS out of a Rifter and to get it tank will be 4-5k - maybe.

...and before everyone chimes in with "Kite fit", yea, I get it and tried it last night - without going to a long point and long range kite, Null still hits like a hammer at the same ranges and your rockets become dicy at best at range.

Do I like the changes - sure, I can now solo even more cruisers, bc's, etc in these other ships.

Do I like the death of the Rifter - not so much.

Flame away....

Edit: oh and before someone gets the thread off track - yea I am in RvB - yea I know no one thinks its real PVP - yea, I mean solo work - etc.. bla, bla, bla...


"The rifter is no longer the uncontested king of T1 frigates and I DON'T LIKE IT!"

Is really all that I saw.
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#55 - 2012-05-23 19:19:37 UTC
Delucian wrote:
Well since you asked (and there may be some of this here already TLDR), but;

...while the updates are nice, if you are a Merlin, Incursus or Punisher pilot, you castrated the Rifter in the process - I would be fine if the Rifter got some level of buff to keep it ... what is that word that keeps getting thrown around .... oh, yea - balanced!

I fly all of them (although the Puny much less so) and having an Incursus that is capable of 275 DPS or a 8+k tank while still keeping over 200 DPS - I mean seriously?

Max skills with implants and overheat you get sub-200 DPS out of a Rifter and to get it tank will be 4-5k - maybe.

...and before everyone chimes in with "Kite fit", yea, I get it and tried it last night - without going to a long point and long range kite, Null still hits like a hammer at the same ranges and your rockets become dicy at best at range.

Do I like the changes - sure, I can now solo even more cruisers, bc's, etc in these other ships.

Do I like the death of the Rifter - not so much.

Flame away....

Edit: oh and before someone gets the thread off track - yea I am in RvB - yea I know no one thinks its real PVP - yea, I mean solo work - etc.. bla, bla, bla...
he mad

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#56 - 2012-05-23 19:29:49 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Delucian wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
How do you like them apples uh?

Glad you enjoy the Merlin, we love it when a plan comes together. This is still unfortunate we couldn't get more than a handful of frigates rebalanced for Inferno, but we hopefully should be able to ramp the effort up in the near future.

Now, go forth, dear minions, your frigates shall blot out the sun, go get some Tormentor / Punisher / Incursus and give us some feedback on those as well! P


Well since you asked (and there may be some of this here already TLDR), but;

...while the updates are nice, if you are a Merlin, Incursus or Punisher pilot, you castrated the Rifter in the process - I would be fine if the Rifter got some level of buff to keep it ... what is that word that keeps getting thrown around .... oh, yea - balanced!

I fly all of them (although the Puny much less so) and having an Incursus that is capable of 275 DPS or a 8+k tank while still keeping over 200 DPS - I mean seriously?

Max skills with implants and overheat you get sub-200 DPS out of a Rifter and to get it tank will be 4-5k - maybe.

...and before everyone chimes in with "Kite fit", yea, I get it and tried it last night - without going to a long point and long range kite, Null still hits like a hammer at the same ranges and your rockets become dicy at best at range.

Do I like the changes - sure, I can now solo even more cruisers, bc's, etc in these other ships.

Do I like the death of the Rifter - not so much.

Flame away....

Edit: oh and before someone gets the thread off track - yea I am in RvB - yea I know no one thinks its real PVP - yea, I mean solo work - etc.. bla, bla, bla...


"The rifter is no longer the uncontested king of T1 frigates and I DON'T LIKE IT!"

Is really all that I saw.


Which is really what one of the main points of the rebalance was.
Aliaksandre
Screaming Hayabusa
#57 - 2012-05-23 19:39:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliaksandre
The point of the rebalance was the bring ships inline. I fly both Merlins and Rifters; but the new buff makes the rifter suffer as much as the jag did with AF changes. Not to mention the rifter was not the uncontested king. A good Merlin or Tristan pilot could easily take a rifter before the changes.

My new Merlin does 190ish DPS at 7.5km (null) with 6.4ehp, and that is without an extension rig. After testing, it eats the poor rifter, 200mm/SAR, shield, 400m whatever (The cookie rifter kiting does about 98dps - less tank and half the dps).

The only way the rifter is viable in 1v1s now is an arty fit.

No, I'm not crying, just pointing out that the buff did indeed screw the rifter. Which is fine, as i'm sure there are many people who are tired of it. But you could have at least keep the merlin's speed a bit lower, or maybe knock off 1.25km or so from null ammo, and then you have a balanced fight where the rifter stands a change.

Merlin also eats the new incursus, punisher, taranis, etc. (these were all tested yesterday).

So yeah, the Merlin is the new king, and a bit OP, but you can bet I will be flying it more often now.
Delucian
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#58 - 2012-05-23 19:42:47 UTC
I love trolls Big smile

Really not mad, just trying to understand the concept, TBH.

Was the Rifter somewhat better than the others, yea. Was it substantially better, no. A well fit/well flown Merlin, Incursus or Punisher could easily take a Rifter - was it easy, no.

Now, its not even a contest.

Just looking for some actual balance. I mean even making the Rifter a bit faster would have provided some benefit to level the top 4 - but in testing it is now not even faster than the others.

So, again, just trying to see CCP's theory behind this would be great.

...that or one of you Rifter gods provide a viable/tested argument against what I am saying.
Delucian
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-05-23 20:03:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Delucian
Maybe I should shut up, cus all my old tried and true Rifter fits work on the Incursus with moar DPS Idea


...and more tank...
Hail Goddess
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2012-05-23 20:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Hail Goddess
This was infact a Rifter nerf. However, the Merlin is not OP. Incursus, is now better than the Tristan... Which doesn't make much sense. The new Punisher is nasty with certain setups and may be better than the others now. Infact the punisher is a Crusader, with better damage and tank.

Fit 1 neut and focus on damage and tank (150dps MF). Outdamages the rest @ range unless they use long range turrets. Should b able to school most interceptors and T1 frigates no matter the setup. If it's losing. The other ship is capped by then (turn and warp off).