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Is hatred vs. Amarr ingrained in Matari culture?
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Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#61 - 2011-09-19 13:19:00 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:

The only illegally captured slaves that can enter the Empire legally are those that are sold to Amarr slave traders by non-citizens. If a Caldari trader sells slaves to an Amarr, obviously that Caldari is not held to the Amarr registration and trade laws. Similarly, the buyer doesn't need to concern itself If the trade is legal by Caldari law is, that is the responsibility of the seller.


The Honor Guards asks that if anyone has any specific examples of such illegal and dishonorable transactions occurring anywhere within State sovereign space or by those pilots with any claimed affiliation to the State, please provide information to the Honor Guard.

This sort of illicit transaction is a stain on Caldari honor and will be dealt with swiftly and harshly.

~Malcolm Khross
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#62 - 2011-09-19 13:20:51 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
But let us remember that Matar was beset by a natural disaster at the time, and without the Amarrian intervention many of the population may not have survived.
The only natural disaster I was able to get confirmation on was the natural orbital bombardment that happened. If the Amarr would not have stopped with that, quite a few people would indeed have not survived.

But we're back to a problem from another thread: The Amarr regularly lie about history, and try to exterminate disagreeing opinions. Anything we think we know about the past could or could not be right. It's a pity, really. Luckily, archaeology seems more powerful than the Amarrian desire to define truth.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#63 - 2011-09-19 13:23:38 UTC
Malcolm Khross wrote:
Merdaneth wrote:
The only illegally captured slaves that can enter the Empire legally are those that are sold to Amarr slave traders by non-citizens. If a Caldari trader sells slaves to an Amarr, obviously that Caldari is not held to the Amarr registration and trade laws. Similarly, the buyer doesn't need to concern itself If the trade is legal by Caldari law is, that is the responsibility of the seller.
The Honor Guards asks that if anyone has any specific examples of such illegal and dishonorable transactions occurring anywhere within State sovereign space or by those pilots with any claimed affiliation to the State, please provide information to the Honor Guard.

This sort of illicit transaction is a stain on Caldari honor and will be dealt with swiftly and harshly.
There are regular occurances of Caldari forces supporting Amarrian slave raids into the Republic (as to be expected by allies in a war). No idea about State sovereign space. Is this interesting to you? What kind of "evidence" would you like?
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#64 - 2011-09-19 13:27:20 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:

They committed the crime of turning away from God's path.

But let us remember that Matar was beset by a natural disaster at the time, and without the Amarrian intervention many of the population may not have survived.


You can't "turn away" from something if you're not even aware of it at all. Am I turning away from the path of the Magical Invisible Water Fedo? I am not speaking out against your religion, but using it to justify the enslavement of an entire people is weak at best. Those were innocent people.

Natural disaster? Show me the historical proof. And even if this was the case, does it justify slavery?! I'd not accept help if it meant me, my family, and everyone I know becoming enslaved.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#65 - 2011-09-19 13:44:41 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
There are regular occurances of Caldari forces supporting Amarrian slave raids into the Republic (as to be expected by allies in a war). No idea about State sovereign space. Is this interesting to you? What kind of "evidence" would you like?


To the point I emphasized: Expected, perhaps. That does not make it just or honorable, if we must betray our own integrity in order to be allies, then we have made enemies of ourselves.

Are these forces State loyal forces or are they independent?

~Malcolm Khross
Ascentior
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#66 - 2011-09-19 14:12:26 UTC
Rek Jaiga wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:

They committed the crime of turning away from God's path.

But let us remember that Matar was beset by a natural disaster at the time, and without the Amarrian intervention many of the population may not have survived.


You can't "turn away" from something if you're not even aware of it at all. Am I turning away from the path of the Magical Invisible Water Fedo? I am not speaking out against your religion, but using it to justify the enslavement of an entire people is weak at best. Those were innocent people.

You do not need to be aware of God's path to turn away from it. Just like a blind man can turn away from the sun. Just because he can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there.
God's will is absolute. We can dance the waltz of who is right about how we treat one another, but the truth is, we are all his subjects. Some of us are aware of that and live our lives accordingly. Others need to be set on the right path.

It does lead to some issues. For example, what is the right way to guide people along this path. Slavery and eventual emancipation has worked quite well in history. It is becoming increasingly hard to do this. Could there be a better way? Possibly.
Slavery is also used for the wrong reasons by some individuals and groups. This is easier to hide because of the Amarrian reclaiming. But as someone has already stated, God will judge them.

I believe slavery to be necessary at the moment. I look forward to when it won't be. However I doubt that will be any time soon. Only by following His path can we be guaranteed of eventual peace. The quicker we get everyone on the same path the better. I will work toward that future for all of us.

These issues will never be resolved by a handful of well intended, clever individuals communicating on an exclusive network. But of course it is always good to provoke thought.

Admiral of PIE Inc., Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris (See 'PIE Public' for recruitment)

Honorary Fabricator-General of the Imperial Navy

Chosen by God to serve the Empire.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#67 - 2011-09-19 14:26:58 UTC
Malcolm Khross wrote:
Are these forces State loyal forces or are they independent?
Ship callsigns are "Caldari Navy Temura" and similar and they have Caldari Navy dogtags. I would say official state ships, but Amarrian apologetics might disagree. Tasks I've seen them do was setting up slave labor camps to set up local production facilities to support a possible invasion. I'm not quite sure whether I have seen them do other slave-related work - I have to admit I tend to not care too much why exactly hostiles show up in the Republic. If more information would be important to you, I can try to dig up some records.
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#68 - 2011-09-19 14:28:27 UTC
Ascentior wrote:

You do not need to be aware of God's path to turn away from it. Just like a blind man can turn away from the sun. Just because he can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

For decisions regarding whether or not to enslave an entire race of people numbering in the billions I don't think it should be assumed "we're right, fo' sho'". In fact, whenever I make a decision I usually assume I'm wrong and try to justify that decision from the ground up. Why can't most governments do the same?

Ascentior wrote:

Others need to be set on the right path.

I understand that's the "why". I just disagree with the "how".


Ascentior wrote:

These issues will never be resolved by a handful of well intended, clever individuals communicating on an exclusive network. But of course it is always good to provoke thought.

Oh, you never know really. Seeing as most capsuleer employ quite a few non-capsuleers, what we say may very well influence how the rest of the cluster thinks. We have influence. Even if most of the discussion goes on here in this exclusive channel, I make it a practice to talk with CPATH's staff (both capsuleer and non-capsuleer) on a regular basis. We enjoy talking.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#69 - 2011-09-19 16:40:30 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Ship callsigns are "Caldari Navy Temura" and similar and they have Caldari Navy dogtags. I would say official state ships, but Amarrian apologetics might disagree. Tasks I've seen them do was setting up slave labor camps to set up local production facilities to support a possible invasion. I'm not quite sure whether I have seen them do other slave-related work - I have to admit I tend to not care too much why exactly hostiles show up in the Republic. If more information would be important to you, I can try to dig up some records.


More information would be appreciated, sincerely.

While I cannot guarantee that the Honor Guard will have the means to affect a change; bringing such matters to light is a start to holding men to their words and convictions.

Setting aside the legalities, any Caldari who supports or practices slavery betrays our own heritage. We, as a people, left the Federation because we felt oppressed to conform and sacrifice our own cultural identity, why then would we do the same unto others? We exonerate a society in which all are judged by individual merit and dedication to the whole over the self, but we have never demanded that one must conform to our culture and beliefs. The sacrifice of self is not the death of identity, but rather the emphasis of supporting brother and sister beyond oneself.

This news sickens me.

~Malcolm Khross
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#70 - 2011-09-19 18:12:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Rek Jaiga wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
If I qualified your first message of blanket statement, it was for the very reason that you compared Nation slavery with Cartel slavery, and with Amarr slavery, then calling them the same for the only reason that they share the same term and they "spoil people out of their freedom".

It is the exact same thing that comparing water to metal for the only reason that both can boil given a certain temperature. And this is the very problem of broad and general terms as slavery. People have to be more accurate when using the word, unless they want of course be the source of cascading misunderstandings and offended egos.


With slavery being defined as the state of being the property of another person, yeah those three factions are quite comparable in their practices.

In the Empire, human beings are owned for the stated purpose of bringing them enlightenment and salvation.

In the Cartel, human beings are owned for monetary gain and economic reasons.

In Nation, human beings are owned by Kuvakei and tied directly to his will.

Notice any similarities? You're telling me they're not comparable? Give me a break.

Your analogy of me comparing the factions' slave systems and one comparing water to metal is faulty. "Spoiling people out of their freedom" is the salient feature of slavery, not just one of many physical properties of matter. Whenever there are questions of morality involved, paying attention to a system's salient features is surely a wise thing to do.


I did not say that they are not comparable. Please, stop putting words into my mouth. What I have been trying to say again and again, is that you try to do a comparison only in one way : the way where all 3 cases fit together, without even thinking for a second on the (lot of) points they do not even share a single value.

And this is not even speaking about criminal slaves.

Arkady Sadik wrote:

But we're back to a problem from another thread: The Amarr regularly lie about history, and try to exterminate disagreeing opinions. Anything we think we know about the past could or could not be right. It's a pity, really. Luckily, archaeology seems more powerful than the Amarrian desire to define truth.


That was a little stating the obvious, isnt it ?

What you point out can be found in every propaganda system, and all empires are definitly not spared. I think the problem with you, is always playing to pot and kettle games. Sorry if I am being a little rude (but after having been called repeatedly a monster, well, maybe am I supposed to be rude) : this is highly hypocritical.


Malcolm Khross wrote:


This news sickens me.


Honestly Mr Khross, since I have been a capsuleer I have had to fight against every navy we can imagine, where they camouflaged under different flags or not. This is not news : even before the war, all four empire were often raiding or infiltrating the other ones. I still remind to have faced imperial illegal incursions in federal space, republican/federal incursions in imperial space countless times, or even caldari incursions in amarrian space one time (while working for a gallentean corporation in amarrian space, which was totally absurd).

Since the war began though, things are a little less messy and both sides are clearer.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#71 - 2011-09-19 19:25:29 UTC
Farel,

That it happens does not mean I must simply accept it as the norm and shake my head in disapproval. That it happens enough to be considered "normal" is even more atrocious.

It sounds a lot like a case of the right hand not know what the left hand is doing, or a case of humans finally uniting under one single banner: the absolute lack of moral integrity.

There may be little I can actually do about it, except to continue striving to be an example of the stark contrast. No matter the difficulty or sacrifice involved, I will strive to do my best to remain true to myself, those around me and the ideals I continue to strive embodying.

~Malcolm Khross
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#72 - 2011-09-19 19:57:21 UTC
I find the difference in reaction fascinating. One party, when confronted with actions of their chosen nation that they disagree with, is upset - they won't necessarily break their loyalty, but they would prefer this to be different. The other party tries hard to discredit the sources, to find excuses on why these examples are totally different and not that bad, etc.

And people say IGS is not educative.

Mr. Khross, you do have a private message with some records. I'm not sure they're helpful, but it is what I could find in a quick search.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#73 - 2011-09-19 20:04:07 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
I find the difference in reaction fascinating. One party, when confronted with actions of their chosen nation that they disagree with, is upset - they won't necessarily break their loyalty, but they would prefer this to be different. The other party tries hard to discredit the sources, to find excuses on why these examples are totally different and not that bad, etc.

And people say IGS is not educative.

Mr. Khross, you do have a private message with some records. I'm not sure they're helpful, but it is what I could find in a quick search.


Thank you Sadik, they are informative if nothing else.

To your statements above, it is a matter of realizing that no matter the paths we choose to walk in life, we will never walk the "perfect" one, for each path is filled with humans and humans are imperfect. (Yes, I'm including capsuleers in this.)

Every government has its failings, its sins, its atrocities and its shortcomings. They also have their strengths, their kindnesses, their merits and their accomplishments.

I, for one, choose to acknowledge that even though I serve the State by choice because it is my home and its people are my people, it is by no means a perfect moral establishment shining as a beacon for the rest of the cluster. The most I am able to do is see to my own character, that I remain a man of honor, decency, integrity and merit. Perhaps that is not enough to change the lives of many, but it might be enough to change the life of one.

May whatever powers that be will it so.

~Malcolm Khross
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#74 - 2011-09-19 21:38:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Jaiga
Lyn Farel wrote:

I did not say that they are not comparable. Please, stop putting words into my mouth. What I have been trying to say again and again, is that you try to do a comparison only in one way : the way where all 3 cases fit together, without even thinking for a second on the (lot of) points they do not even share a single value.

And this is not even speaking about criminal slaves.


But of course, those factions differ on very many points other than the fact that they embrace slavery. But what are you driving at? My original point was that it is only the Empire which is protected under CONCORD and allowed keep slaves while being shielded from outright war with the Republic and Federation, and this fact probably angers those Matari who even really care about the Amarr (most Matari just go about their daily lives and have their own personal struggles to worry about anyway, just like citizens of all factions).

And for the below, do keep in mind none of this is really directed at you, it's just ranting in general.

I suppose what's infuriating at the end of the day is that the Matari who wishes freedom for his or her kin in the Empire can only shake their fist in anger and support the TLF, or pray by some miracle of God the Empire changes from within. The Empire is protected by CONCORD; why should it care what those outside its borders think? Why should it reform when business as usual has been dandy and backed up by the Navy and police? It would be arrogant to assume we have the right to change the Empire's culture to match our own (just as the Empire did to the Matari); we have no right to claim "cultural superiority". But what are you going to do when your family is trapped on the other side of the border? Sit back and say "Well it's their culture and they have the right to practice it, even though my sister or cousin or mother is enslaved over there"? It is frustrating for the Minmatar and agitating for the Amarr.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#75 - 2011-09-19 22:20:36 UTC
Rek Jaiga wrote:
It would be arrogant to assume we have the right to change the Empire's culture to match our own (just as the Empire did to the Matari); we have no right to claim "cultural superiority". But what are you going to do when your family is trapped on the other side of the border? Sit back and say "Well it's their culture and they have the right to practice it, even though my sister or cousin or mother is enslaved over there"?
This, basically.

The Amarr can for all I care enslave each other all day long. While I understand and sympathize with those who think slavery is unethical, I feel this is something for the Amarr to do from within, not for me to do from the outside. The issues have been and remain the third of all Minmatar in captivity as well as the stated aim of the Empire to "reclaim" the rest of us.
Kithrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2011-09-19 22:41:50 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Kithrus wrote:
How about you make a republic worth returning home to
We're working on that, no worries.

"You're not doing this well enough, it's your own fault if I keep doing what I want to be doing anyhow" is a somewhat cute argument, but not very convincing. Especially when coupled with sweeping generalizations and exaggerations.

Quote:
I'm loath to give them to their own people
The mere idea that you would "give them" to someone else but themselves shows that you do not understand the actual problem.


Sweeping general statements?

Its all over the news networks that Matari republic is listing heavy to one side.

http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4108&tid=3
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4106&tid=3
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3985&tid=3 I like this one, you ask these people to pretend to be Amarr to protect your one tribe and job done this is what they get?

http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3548&tid=3 This one sums up everything I been saying.
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3459&tid=3

See you'll look at me cross eyes when I say 'not all holders are bad' but you'll take the rare few cases of worst and applie it to the whole. I say this because I'm half expecting to get 'heres a success story Captain Crases!'

Well that's fine and all but those articles I linked were about the population as a whole was suffering not most of them being happy and well. Sure a few are well off but just like you can't take the worst case and blanket statement the whole you can't take the best and do likewise.

So sweeping statements yeah....

Read the news.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#77 - 2011-09-19 23:04:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Jaiga
Kithrus wrote:



[...]but you'll take the rare few cases of worst and applie [sic] it to the whole. I say this because I'm half expecting to get 'heres a success story Captain Crases!'

Well that's fine and all but those articles I linked were about the population as a whole was suffering not most of them being happy and well. Sure a few are well off but just like you can't take the worst case and blanket statement the whole you can't take the best and do likewise.

So sweeping statements yeah....

Read the news.


Funny, you're doing it too. Yes, individuals have suffered from relocating to the Republic. But what of those who have found happiness among their kin? You are displaying information selectively in the same manner you accuse Arkaday of doing. Unfortunately, you've the upper hand in this matter too because the media (in this case The Scope) absolutely loves to display only the negative things in life (which is why I have a general disdain for the media, bar the humorous and satirical Gutter Press). No one writes a news report about the person who went from slave to CEO. Everybody writes about the slave who breaks their back for meager wages.

But you know what? The Republic is showing signs of progress. There are Matari capsuleers who live just as humbly as their non-capsuleer brethren and give generously to the community. The tribal system itself is set up in a very communal way, valuing interpersonal relationships over material wealth (there are some sub-tribes which may be called "primitive", but in fact are culturally rich and subsist on the land much as our ancestors did ages ago). The Republic is a fledgling state compared to the Empire, and yet look how far it has come in such a short while.


Additionally, if it's so terrible and you feel so bad for those who leave to the Republic and face challenges, why do you not tell those who are considering leaving about how supposedly bad it is?
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#78 - 2011-09-19 23:07:56 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
Sweeping general statements?
The news articles you linked are about some rather tragic events and sad state of affairs, yes. As I said elsewhere, the release of the 9th generation and older put the Republic under quite some stress. I wish these events had not happened, and I wish all refugees from the Empire - both the released slaves as well as the Nefantar - would have an easier time coming home.

But I did not say: "You are wrong!" - I said: "We are working on it."

With "sweeping statements" I was referring to your rather ludicrous comments about all of this being because of some "persecution complex" as well as your claim that "no strong focus is done in making a home for those they wish to return" - my whole corp and alliance, for example, have been working on building a Republic that is worth returning to for much longer than you have had your capsuleer license. Likewise, the Republic has been trying to give these people a place they can call home.

We're not perfect and there are problems. No one denies that. But claiming that there is no focus at all on providing such a place is a sweeping statement, and in your post that I replied to, made for the sole purpose so you can say "it's not perfect over there, so it's YOUR fault that I keep my slaves."

Which is such a stupidly obvious rhetorical "trick" that it's almost insulting having it tried on us.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#79 - 2011-09-19 23:12:59 UTC
Rek Jaiga wrote:
Additionally, if it's so terrible and you feel so bad for those who leave to the Republic
Shh, don't tell him, but the fourth article he linked was about how badly these people fare in the Empire, not the Republic.
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#80 - 2011-09-19 23:19:25 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Rek Jaiga wrote:
Additionally, if it's so terrible and you feel so bad for those who leave to the Republic
Shh, don't tell him, but the fourth article he linked was about how badly these people fare in the Empire, not the Republic.


Quite right, comrade! We should definitely not point out how the Empire left that paricular family and likely many like it out on the curb after the emancipation order, nor should we mention how it implies that the Amarr do not in fact have the well-being of the Minmatar at heart. Shocking news to anyone if we were ever to tell them! Astonishing!