Intergalactic Summit

How about you make a republic worth returning home to

I'm loath to give them to their own people

There's been a couple actually, but is the Cartel as powerful as the Empire? Does the Cartel have as many capsuleer supporters reading IGS? The Cartel should do an IGS rant against the Empire next for stealin their thunder.

Personally I think one reason the Minmatar hate us Amarrians is cause we so damn sexy. Jealousy issues man.

I'm hardly the best example for the results of Minmatar society, but even before working with Aegis Militia I've been sort of sympathetic for the Amarr proletariat. Even the royalty are victims of their own society and forced into a contract upon birth. In many situations, the slaves of Amarr had more cultural freedom than the citizens.

I do see though how there is something inherently anti-Amarr in Matari culture. Not something by name, not where we point our fingers to the Amarr Empire itself and declare how terrible it is, how it has wronged us and the vengeance it deserves. There's something more emotionally... efficient or portable. I'm not sure what words to use.

Maybe I can better explain through negatives. If the Amarr disappeared there would be a gap. There's a pillar to hold something up and it would still stand after the total elimination of the Empire. It would still stand and wait for something else to be held up by it and this pillar is integral to the existence of maybe the Minmatar people as a whole or even the Republic itself.

There's a need to be persecuted to justify some kind of relevance. It shows a pathology in rebellion; instead of fighting to accomplish a goal and be satisfied, many of us have been raised in ashes and taught that we need to keep razing our own dreams to remain alive. We're not allowed to win... success is death.

Not that it doesn't keep things interesting or that the system is universal among Matari. There is a practical goal right now with tangible results; Slaves of many origins still exist in the Empire. Holders still seek to capture more slaves. That's exclusive to what your father may have done to my father, however, and those who fall back to that argument show they aren't interested in redemption.

And ths right here is why I prefer people like Merdaneth or the others to keep posting.

Well, if we continue to use your incomplete anology, how would you approach a father that beats his children? if you were to prevent beatings, how would you go about it?

We're working on that, no worries.

"You're not doing this well enough, it's your own fault if I keep doing what I want to be doing anyhow" is a somewhat cute argument, but not very convincing. Especially when coupled with sweeping generalizations and exaggerations.

The mere idea that you would "give them" to someone else but themselves shows that you do not understand the actual problem.

While it does not surprise me that you happily continue to use a faulty analogy (while focusing on the silly part of the analogy instead of the actualy content), there is no need to. I have already outlined how I think the conflict could be resolved in this thread, without using any stretched and faulty analogy.

Your Empire operates much like a corrupt criminal enterprise and also wants to eradicate all culture and thought differing from your own Farel so, I see those comparisons as very apt.

There's no debate about whether or not there are slavers in Republic space catering to the Amarrian market. There are slavers representing the Empire, and they are in Republic space. I have seen them, and shot at them.

I was expressing how a typical Matari might view it. And as far as the issue of slavery goes the Empire, Cartel, and Nation are easily comparable. Though their methods and stated intentions may differ, they all take away the freedom of other people.

No, I still think the main issue is the continued captivity of the Minmatar.

And I also stated that the finger pointing with blanket statements on the "evilness" of the Empire is less and less present. But actually, this was maybe a little too much anticipated, indeed.

Maybe it helps if I give you a description of the scenario that would lead to the most likely resolution of the situation.

As a first step, the Amarr Empire declares its intention to release all Minmatar under the condition that those supposedly enslaved for crimes are returned to the Republic, and the others can freely choose where to go (as the 9th generation and onward ones did). It's important to give this option also to those enslaved for crimes, because the Minmatar will have doubts about the term of "crime" in the Amarr legal system. Making it a condition that these are returned to the Republic and can not stay in the Empire is a middle ground there to protect the Empire from those they deem criminals.

Note that I said "intention". What happens next is a discussion on how to do this. Neither the Republic nor the Empire could, economically, sustain the release of all those people at once. Hence it will have to be a slow release, starting with the 1st generation slaves. I do not know how fast, but this needs to be a noticable pace - maybe a generation per year, so we are done in 10 years? Needs some economists to look this through, though.

Next, the Empire needs to make the results of their ongoing efforts against the slave raiders basing in the Empire public. Those slave raiders are striking at other nations, thus breaking Imperial law, and I have been assured that they are being hunted down. Note that the issue with these slave raids is not that they happen, but that they are seen as a sign that the Empire is not interested in peaceful coexistence - if the Empire actually would be, this would require mostly PR work on the already existing efforts. Likewise, punishing corporations for breaking laws in the Republic would be a good step.

After this, it would be extremely difficult for any Minmatar to argue for a continued "hatred" of the Amarr: You have in two simple steps invalidated pretty much any argument. Even the fear that you plan to invade again would be difficult to argue for, because it would have been positively stupid to release all these people if you intend to capture them back soon.

It would not convince everyone, but the ones who remain will be a minority.


Of course, all of this is a bit utopian. As it is, the Empire and the Republic are at war, there is not much hope that the 8 remaining generations are going to be released any time soon, the slave raids into the Republic are deemed the Republic's problem, and well, wars tend to make interactions between nations awkward. Not to mention that I do not have much hope for the above to happen even if we were not at war.

But well, hope is a precious thing.

I for myself would try to find out the reasons why this man acts so odd and displays poor judgement and morality.

Then I would strive to correct it.

Additionally, to take the analogy further: you think basically most Amarrian's are persons who beat people up who eat their breakfast eggs from the wrong end

Well, there is a debate, because apparently this has been the very core subject of all the latest discussions between, for example, Mr Sadik and Ms Mithra. Do not tell me there is no debate, because there is. It is a matter of fact. It is also not me that you will have to convince with your words.

Then as I said, the typicial Matari should use his head a little more.

And do not start please to play the hypocrite. The Republic too take away the freedom of other people.