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No FW LP payout for defensive plexing; reasoning behind this?

Author
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#1 - 2012-05-21 15:23:57 UTC
Quote:

Only attacking enemy sites will yield LPs – defending will not. Example: one Amarr enlisted pilot defending an Amarr site will not receive anything. The same Amarr pilot capturing a Minmatar site will be normally paid.


Any particular reason that reckless offensive behavior is encouraged over caring about your own space? I would have thought that defense would have an "advantage", especially when they need to uphold the system upgrades that they purchased with their precious LP.

Anyone know what the reasoning is behind this apparently needless complication? Was it for some balance reason that I just can't think of right now, or just one of those things to make Eve harder to explain to newbies?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-05-21 15:57:38 UTC
I went of out the house today. It was ace
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#3 - 2012-05-21 15:57:49 UTC
Defensive plexing is its own reward (you get to keep your system upgrades)

Also, its easier and you have the npc's on your side.

Plus of course encourging "reckless aggressive behaviour" is kinda what game design is about.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

zama118
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-05-21 16:00:03 UTC
you get LP for killing the people attacking, why reward you twice?
Ayn Randy
Home For Pugs
#5 - 2012-05-21 16:01:26 UTC
Yeah, you get the incentive to earn LP by killing the attackers. Make more people PVP!! :D
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#6 - 2012-05-21 16:03:45 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Defensive plexing is its own reward (you get to keep your system upgrades)

Also, its easier and you have the npc's on your side.

Plus of course encourging "reckless aggressive behaviour" is kinda what game design is about.

Keeping system upgrades is not a real incentive for anyone except for those basing out of that system. Other than sheer goodwill and generosity, what encourages me to run defensive complexes in Vard, which I do not base out of? This sort of thing results in attack on the system being encouraged for more people than defense is encouraged for. My fear is that this will simply result in even less system upgrading, because, to be honest, what's the point?

I don't mind encouraging aggressive behavior, but I'm also thinking of the poor Amarr here. I want them to have reasons to fight for their systems, not just throw themselves pathetically at Minmatar systems they can't summon the numbers to capture. Taking candy from a baby is no fun.

Karn Dulake wrote:
I went of out the house today. It was ace

It's raining here, it sort of sucks outside.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#7 - 2012-05-21 16:04:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
zama118 wrote:
you get LP for killing the people attacking, why reward you twice?

You get LP for killing the people defending, too. And honestly, the attackers usually have the upper hand, since they know exactly where the defender is going to warp into the plex.

Ed: your argument also doesn't work unless the attackers are using battleships, or T2/faction frigates/cruisers. There are a lot of T1 frigates, destroyers, and cruisers romping about FW space. There isn't really any LP incentive to kill a 1 mil ISK Rifter.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#8 - 2012-05-21 16:17:53 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
There isn't really any LP incentive to kill a 1 mil ISK Rifter.


Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you: The FW Carebear.

It's called SHINY KILLMAILS, bro.

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#9 - 2012-05-21 16:38:07 UTC
TheBreadMuncher wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
There isn't really any LP incentive to kill a 1 mil ISK Rifter.


Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you: The FW Carebear.

It's called SHINY KILLMAILS, bro.

I don't follow. If I go into Anka in my Rifter or my Cormorant and start running minor sites, why would anyone shoot me or try to close the sites when they can just go to Hofjalgund and run their own sites?

I want fights, and am concerned that when attacking is encouraged over defending, all that will result in is attackers missing each other and complaining about the lack of PvP. I don't see how this is about being a "FW Carebear".

If you're talking about the killmails themselves being a motivation, that is a valid point. That is actually what motivates me. However, I am trying to think broader. If the "SHINY KILLMAILS" isn't motivating the Amarr enough to defend their space properly, what exactly will make them defend better after Inferno?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

zama118
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-05-21 16:38:22 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
zama118 wrote:
you get LP for killing the people attacking, why reward you twice?

You get LP for killing the people defending, too. And honestly, the attackers usually have the upper hand, since they know exactly where the defender is going to warp into the plex.

Ed: your argument also doesn't work unless the attackers are using battleships, or T2/faction frigates/cruisers. There are a lot of T1 frigates, destroyers, and cruisers romping about FW space. There isn't really any LP incentive to kill a 1 mil ISK Rifter.


risk/reward...

attacking groups are rarely redefineing there numbers or ship types
defending groups can define the numbers or ship types to easy win, least loss most LP gain

not always the case ofc, but in eve nothing ever is. but defending a system seems to have resons behind it with the new FW system as you put effort in to maintatin a system. in 0.0 you never get a reward for defending apart from the safety of the system. so FW should be the same.

also i expect FW to escilate now with larger ships being used a lot more (as the risk/reward is being meet)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#11 - 2012-05-21 16:46:30 UTC
zama118 wrote:

attacking groups are rarely redefineing there numbers or ship types
defending groups can define the numbers or ship types to easy win, least loss most LP gain

Well, it's not encouraging blobbing, because having too many people reduces the reward too much, so it's encouraging the defender to use gimmicky ships to counter a few specific attacker ships. This is only realistically possible if you had the ship pre-prepared, or were basing out of the same system. It's still a lot of effort compared to just slapping on a crappy fit and heading out to run a minor plex.

Keep in mind that 10k LP is what a 100 mil ISK solo kill pays out. Would you attack a T2-fit BC solo for a possible 10k LP payout (probably needing an equally expensive ship of your own), or go run a minor plex in a Thrasher for the same payout? You pointed out risk/reward. I'm pointing out that as is, it's broken.

zama118 wrote:
in 0.0 you never get a reward for defending apart from the safety of the system. so FW should be the same.

In 0.0 you have a ton of benefits to owning a system, ranging from system upgrades that actually make sense and are useful, to stations, to jump bridges, cyno jammers, e-peen, and other things.

zama118 wrote:
also i expect FW to escilate now with larger ships being used a lot more (as the risk/reward is being meet)


I expect FW to downgrade to smaller/cheaper ships, or to Tengus farming major sites over and over.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

zama118
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-05-21 17:01:46 UTC
well we are all entitled to our opinion

we will see who is right in a month or two
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#13 - 2012-05-21 17:03:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I expect FW to downgrade to smaller/cheaper ships, or to Tengus farming major sites over and over.

FW are the new L4 missions? Or incusions maybe, though if you can solo some of the sites, more like anom ratting.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#14 - 2012-05-21 18:16:04 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I expect FW to downgrade to smaller/cheaper ships, or to Tengus farming major sites over and over.

FW are the new L4 missions? Or incusions maybe, though if you can solo some of the sites, more like anom ratting.

Tengus are already all over the L4 FW missions. The mission showing up in local is NBD if you are already 100 km away, nobody can kill you solo, and you can just plain kill most/any ships that can catch you.

I assume this is how it will be with major plexes, too.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#15 - 2012-05-21 18:33:20 UTC
I don't think ccp minds if no one ever does defensive plexing. Systems will just continue to flip or be close to flipping. Then the side that is on the defensive will have the abiltiy to make a quick attack and try to flip a system.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#16 - 2012-05-21 18:35:48 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I expect FW to downgrade to smaller/cheaper ships, or to Tengus farming major sites over and over.

FW are the new L4 missions? Or incusions maybe, though if you can solo some of the sites, more like anom ratting.

Tengus are already all over the L4 FW missions. The mission showing up in local is NBD if you are already 100 km away, nobody can kill you solo, and you can just plain kill most/any ships that can catch you.

I assume this is how it will be with major plexes, too.

Cool. How much better is the isk/hr?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#17 - 2012-05-21 18:40:26 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I expect FW to downgrade to smaller/cheaper ships, or to Tengus farming major sites over and over.

FW are the new L4 missions? Or incusions maybe, though if you can solo some of the sites, more like anom ratting.

Tengus are already all over the L4 FW missions. The mission showing up in local is NBD if you are already 100 km away, nobody can kill you solo, and you can just plain kill most/any ships that can catch you.

I assume this is how it will be with major plexes, too.

Cool. How much better is the isk/hr?

I don't do it in a Tengu, but in a Purifier, and even then not very often. At a leisurely pace, 100k LP per hour is a decent payout. At the mediocre LP to ISK conversion rate of 1000 ISK/LP, that is 100 mil ISK/hr. Tengus run the missions at least as fast as the bombers, and they don't need auxiliary support (a sig-tanking T1 frigate alt/friend) to complete some of the tougher missions. You can make stupid amounts of money that way.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)