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WoD and DUST never borrowed EVE devs, but EVEApocrypha borrowed WoD/DUST devs
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#41 - 2011-09-16 20:55:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rodj Blake
Is it smart for a business to develop new products?

Yes, it is. Products have a lifecycle, and you want your new products on the market before the old ones become outdated.

Is it smart for a business to use revenue generated from existing products to develop new products?

Yes. It can be more cost-efficient than borrowing cash.

Is it smart for a business to divert so much revenue from maintaining existing products that those products suffer and don't last as long as they should?

Not if the business wants to survive.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Stella SGP
#42 - 2011-09-16 20:56:35 UTC
Josie Starshine wrote:
Then please explain how there came to be an Everquest 2 or Diable 2 or 3 or WoW working on a new mmo, or all the other follow-ups to popular mmos. If you don't think revenue from one game assists with the creation of another you're being delusional. Luckily this is for an addition and not a replacement.

It is being improved. CCP is trying to be innovative. Creating their own new engine and trying new things to improve the game. The piece we see of WiS now is only the very first step. CCP has said they only intended on putting in a piece and testing it and optimizing it before including more. Makes sense to me. There will be a lot more functionality for WiS but it is new and so it is being implemented carefully.

Nothing says they cannot work on FiS and WiS simultaneously and by reading the dev posts it seems they are doing just that.


Stop trying to make sense. Seriously, LOL. This is Eve General Discussion Forum.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#43 - 2011-09-16 21:01:03 UTC
Stella SGP wrote:
Mendolus wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Yeah thats a dodgy argument that doesn't really refute anything people have gotten annoyed about.

CCP has one current income stream and thats Eve Online.
Any resources raised by Eve and spent on other projects represents resource taken from Eve.
Doesn't really matter if they are Dust devs or WOD devs they are paid-for-by-eve Devs.

So I wouldn't really go making triumphant threads about this stuff.




I bet all those old Hættuspil players are still shaking their fists at CCP and demanding to know where their money went and why there was not a Hættuspil 2 released using their money!


Just in case others don't know what you're talking about.

Quote:
In Hættuspil (or Danger Game) the player takes on the role of a young person and his object is to collect the 25 points needed to win. Collecting points is done by buying items according to each person's interests. The points can be lost as well, for example if the player gets a drug card.

The game was designed and published by the founders of CCP to finance the beginning of their Eve Online project.


http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/32280/hattuspil




This thread is like Night of the Bad Analogies ...

Since when does a single purchase boardgame become comparable with a subscription-based MMO?

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Slade Trillgon
Brutor Force Federated
#44 - 2011-09-16 21:01:34 UTC
Stella SGP wrote:
Mendolus wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Yeah thats a dodgy argument that doesn't really refute anything people have gotten annoyed about.

CCP has one current income stream and thats Eve Online.
Any resources raised by Eve and spent on other projects represents resource taken from Eve.
Doesn't really matter if they are Dust devs or WOD devs they are paid-for-by-eve Devs.

So I wouldn't really go making triumphant threads about this stuff.




I bet all those old Hættuspil players are still shaking their fists at CCP and demanding to know where their money went and why there was not a Hættuspil 2 released using their money!


Just in case others don't know what you're talking about.

Quote:
In Hættuspil (or Danger Game) the player takes on the role of a young person and his object is to collect the 25 points needed to win. Collecting points is done by buying items according to each person's interests. The points can be lost as well, for example if the player gets a drug card.

The game was designed and published by the founders of CCP to finance the beginning of their Eve Online project.


http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/32280/hattuspil


ShockedShockedLolLolLol

That is classic.


Slade
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#45 - 2011-09-16 21:03:01 UTC
Mai Kusoni wrote:
DUST depends on EVE to function.
No, it doesn't, according to CCP.
Either game could cease to exist without breaking the other.

If they stopped developing Dust, nothing would happen to EVE. Well, nothing directly. CCP might suffer (but then, they might suffer if they develop it too), and if they do, then EVE may suffer in return. But that is all.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#46 - 2011-09-16 21:23:51 UTC
Both sides of this arguement have merit, indeed in some ways people are saying the same thing on both sides but in different ways (and with vastly different levels of eloquence).

Yes, CCP is entirely justified in funneling money into their other projects.

Yes, CCP needs to be very careful that they do not neglect EVE and it's player base while they do so. Many would say that they have stepped over that line and need to re-evaluate their development priorities/resources.

Yes, CCP has pulled needed manpower from other projects when EVE needed it.

Yes, the manpower demands for their other projects is significant as these projects have release dates they need to meet if at all possible.

Yes, tech produced for those other products can and has been incorporated into EVE.

Yes, some people view that last point as a huge benefit... others view it as using the EVE player base as beta testers for games they are not interested in. Personally I view it as a little bit of both, and rather efficient of them. In the end it works out better than EVE not benefitting from the development efforts in those other area's at all.


See this isn't an "I'm right, you're wrong" scenario. Both sides are correct, it just depends on which side of the fence you prefer to stand.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
#47 - 2011-09-16 21:24:35 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:


This thread is like Night of the Bad Analogies ...

Since when does a single purchase boardgame become comparable with a subscription-based MMO?


Since when are MMO companies only ever allowed to produce one product for all time and not use one iota of company resources on anything but the single product they ever produce?

...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#48 - 2011-09-16 21:27:34 UTC
Mendolus wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:


This thread is like Night of the Bad Analogies ...

Since when does a single purchase boardgame become comparable with a subscription-based MMO?


Since when are MMO companies only ever allowed to produce one product for all time and not use one iota of company resources on anything but the single product they ever produce?


Has anybody claimed that? I know I haven't. You are responding to an argument nobody else has made.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
#49 - 2011-09-16 21:35:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mendolus
Jade Constantine wrote:
Mendolus wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:


This thread is like Night of the Bad Analogies ...

Since when does a single purchase boardgame become comparable with a subscription-based MMO?


Since when are MMO companies only ever allowed to produce one product for all time and not use one iota of company resources on anything but the single product they ever produce?


Has anybody claimed that? I know I haven't. You are responding to an argument nobody else has made.


Just because people are not making that conclusion does not mean they are not arguing its premise.

I am simply pointing out the obvious problem with the 'woe is EVE' argument.

Any amount of resources CCP uses for other projects, takes away from EVE.
It is CCP's decision to do so, not ours.

Whether we agree with it or not is inconsequential unless we cancel enough of our subscriptions to exceed the allowances that were projected when CCP decided to take this gamble upon themselves.

That's how it works.

The only thing that matters, is your subscription itself, period.

Talk is wasted time you could have already cancelled and made your point.

...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2011-09-16 21:38:06 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Mendolus wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:


This thread is like Night of the Bad Analogies ...

Since when does a single purchase boardgame become comparable with a subscription-based MMO?


Since when are MMO companies only ever allowed to produce one product for all time and not use one iota of company resources on anything but the single product they ever produce?


Has anybody claimed that? I know I haven't. You are responding to an argument nobody else has made.


Many of the pro CCP guys seem to take their argument tactics from the Saul Alinsky Rules for Radicals play book. Which does not allow for real discussion or discourse.

Dont expect much in the way of legitimate argument and reason from them.

As for the Devs claim, I don't believe it unless he proves it at this point. Time cards or other documentation proving his statement are needed. I do not trust anyone at CCP at this stage or what they say. Im looking at their actions now, and the proof is in the pudding as they say.





**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
#51 - 2011-09-16 21:43:37 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:


Many of the pro CCP guys seem to take their argument tactics from the Saul Alinsky Rules for Radicals play book. Which does not allow for real discussion or discourse.



Oh yes, I am very pro CCP considering I adamantly adhere to two edicts:

1) If CCP ever implements permanent non-vanity items without an item exchange requirement to the NEX, I will be cancelling my subs.
2) I encourage anyone who is not entertained by the game content anymore to find other games to play instead.

Yes, I am doing CCP many favors, trust me... I can barely bend over I'm so sore. Lol

...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#52 - 2011-09-16 21:44:41 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Mendolus wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:


This thread is like Night of the Bad Analogies ...

Since when does a single purchase boardgame become comparable with a subscription-based MMO?


Since when are MMO companies only ever allowed to produce one product for all time and not use one iota of company resources on anything but the single product they ever produce?


Has anybody claimed that? I know I haven't. You are responding to an argument nobody else has made.


Many of the pro CCP guys seem to take their argument tactics from the Saul Alinsky Rules for Radicals play book. Which does not allow for real discussion or discourse.

Dont expect much in the way of legitimate argument and reason from them.

As for the Devs claim, I don't believe it unless he proves it at this point. Time cards or other documentation proving his statement are needed. I do not trust anyone at CCP at this stage or what they say. Im looking at their actions now, and the proof is in the pudding as they say.







You want to see time cards? Really?

I'm sorry my friend, but thats just a wee bit over the top.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2011-09-16 22:00:15 UTC  |  Edited by: RougeOperator
Ranger 1 wrote:
RougeOperator wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Mendolus wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:


This thread is like Night of the Bad Analogies ...

Since when does a single purchase boardgame become comparable with a subscription-based MMO?


Since when are MMO companies only ever allowed to produce one product for all time and not use one iota of company resources on anything but the single product they ever produce?


Has anybody claimed that? I know I haven't. You are responding to an argument nobody else has made.


Many of the pro CCP guys seem to take their argument tactics from the Saul Alinsky Rules for Radicals play book. Which does not allow for real discussion or discourse.

Dont expect much in the way of legitimate argument and reason from them.

As for the Devs claim, I don't believe it unless he proves it at this point. Time cards or other documentation proving his statement are needed. I do not trust anyone at CCP at this stage or what they say. Im looking at their actions now, and the proof is in the pudding as they say.







You want to see time cards? Really?

I'm sorry my friend, but thats just a wee bit over the top.


NO its not if the person in question is going to make such claims relating to work force allocation. He cant toss it out there without any way for us to verify or back it up.

It was very irresponsible of him to say that in the first place.

You cant just say things you cant back up and prove. Or can prove but wont then tell people to just trust you. Its borderline abuse too us players and customers in many ways.

Yeah that ship sailed.

Very unprofessional.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
Mai Kusoni
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2011-09-16 22:11:14 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:


NO its not if the person in question is going to make such claims relating to work force allocation. He cant toss it out there without any way for us to verify or back it up.

It was very irresponsible of him to say that in the first place.

You cant just say things you cant back up and prove. Or can prove but wont then tell people to just trust you. Its borderline abuse too us players and customers in many ways.

Yeah that ship sailed.

Very unprofessional.


Wow you are taking all of this way too seriously. Take a deep breath and reread what you posted. I think you need to step away from the keyboard and get out more.

Oh and you spelled Rogue wrong. Just sayin'
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2011-09-16 22:18:46 UTC
Mai Kusoni wrote:
RougeOperator wrote:


NO its not if the person in question is going to make such claims relating to work force allocation. He cant toss it out there without any way for us to verify or back it up.

It was very irresponsible of him to say that in the first place.

You cant just say things you cant back up and prove. Or can prove but wont then tell people to just trust you. Its borderline abuse too us players and customers in many ways.

Yeah that ship sailed.

Very unprofessional.


Wow you are taking all of this way too seriously. Take a deep breath and reread what you posted. I think you need to step away from the keyboard and get out more.

Oh and you spelled Rogue wrong. Just sayin'


No im pretty sure I got red in french right. The mistake was forgetting to make a space between the two words. C'est la vie.

Moving along.

No im taking it as serious as it needs to be. Its a dirty things to make a bold statement as the CCP dev makes that can be proved only to turn around and inevitably say you wont prove it.

He is trying to silence discontent in a dirty low down way.

He can say anything he wants and not have to prove it if we let such things slide. Its not acceptable.

Sorry but you have to earn my trust and faith. Im not going to just go along with such a statement with glazed brainwashed eyes.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
#56 - 2011-09-16 22:28:37 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:

No im pretty sure I got red in french right. The mistake was forgetting to make a space between the two words. C'est la vie.

Moving along.

No im taking it as serious as it needs to be. Its a dirty things to make a bold statement as the CCP dev makes that can be proved only to turn around and inevitably say you wont prove it.

He is trying to silence discontent in a dirty low down way.

He can say anything he wants and not have to prove it if we let such things slide. Its not acceptable.

Sorry but you have to earn my trust and faith. Im not going to just go along with such a statement with glazed brainwashed eyes.


Pst, it's a video game, a game.

...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2011-09-16 22:32:11 UTC
Mendolus wrote:
RougeOperator wrote:

No im pretty sure I got red in french right. The mistake was forgetting to make a space between the two words. C'est la vie.

Moving along.

No im taking it as serious as it needs to be. Its a dirty things to make a bold statement as the CCP dev makes that can be proved only to turn around and inevitably say you wont prove it.

He is trying to silence discontent in a dirty low down way.

He can say anything he wants and not have to prove it if we let such things slide. Its not acceptable.

Sorry but you have to earn my trust and faith. Im not going to just go along with such a statement with glazed brainwashed eyes.


Pst, it's a video game, a game.


Its a business, with paying customers. With a game as the product.

What is your point exactly?



**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
#58 - 2011-09-16 22:37:01 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:

What is your point exactly?


This is a video game, not the Lament of the Proletariat.

...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2011-09-16 22:41:57 UTC
Mendolus wrote:
RougeOperator wrote:

What is your point exactly?


This is a video game, not the Lament of the Proletariat.


Thanks for pointing out to everyone reading the forums that you are extremely ignorant.

Its not just a game. Its also a payed for service. One the involves an investment of time and money.

This is not some scrabble game you toss in the closet and pull out only once a year for a family gathering.

Its not some 20 hour game you got for xbox that once its over its over.

Its an MMO which is a totally different thing then just a game. For many many reasons.

And customer/player/user feedback matters. As each person has formed relationships in game and out that can and will effect sales and retention of past and future customers.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#60 - 2011-09-16 22:45:55 UTC
Mendolus wrote:
Just because people are not making that conclusion does not mean they are not arguing its premise. I am simply pointing out the obvious problem with the 'woe is EVE' argument.
Any amount of resources CCP uses for other projects, takes away from EVE. It is CCP's decision to do so, not ours. Whether we agree with it or not is inconsequential unless we cancel enough of our subscriptions to exceed the allowances that were projected when CCP decided to take this gamble upon themselves.


See I don't agree. I believe it is possible to protest and argue for improvement without taking the sanction of removing a subscription. I believe the position that "if you don't like it - GO!" is a simplistic and rather dishonest tactic designed to stifle debate. End of the day we invest in this game and community when we play and we are more than simple users or consumers of this product. Now you can point at me and call me deluded but I suspect I'm the person in this conversation who has met these people face to face and understands the corporate culture over there.

Arguing that any meaningful protest must = ending subs and walking away. Is basically attempting to disempower the community and close down discontent. Why should people give up the game and community they have helped to build because bad business decisions have been made on bad information? Is anyone arguing that CCP is somehow incapable of making mistakes? I don't think so.

Quote:
That's how it works.
The only thing that matters, is your subscription itself, period.
Talk is wasted time you could have already cancelled and made your point.


Thats a little like arguing there is no point marching against an unpopular government you might as well strap on a machine gun and bullet proof vest and immediately kick off an insurgency.

There are gradiations of protest. Measured demonstration of discontent. This community is old enough and sophisticated enough to see through the manipulative rhetoric of counterrevolutionary agents such as yourself!

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom