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How to get carebears to WANT to PvP!
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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#141 - 2012-05-20 23:55:45 UTC
Bluddwolf wrote:
I also wish CCP would intorduce a PVP flagging system. This way, if you wanted to PVP wherever you are, you could just flag yourself for PVP.

Thanks for ruining my game.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Hanuman Li Tosh
Nullbear Protection Act of 2019
#142 - 2012-05-21 00:21:09 UTC
Good Hedbergite wrote:
I'm a new player (9M SP) returning after a two year hiatus. It seems the carebear vs PvPer mentalities haven't changed one bit, so I've come up with an idea that could encourage new players and carebears to actually WANT to get more involved with PvP and it's simple - hands on training!

The biggest part of the problem is that most noobs and carebears don't know how to fight and learning is a huge time and ISK investment they don't feel like making.

This time around, I'm much more interested in PvPing (I was a carebear last time) - so I don't mind spending the time and ISK - but here's the typical scenario for getting some practice at PvP:

Build a ship - 15-30 minutes
Fly to an area and hunt for a semi-fair fight - 15-30+ minutes
Fight and die - approx 3-5 minutes

So roughly an hour+ investment for 3-minutes of actual "fight training" - which is fine if you WANT to be a PvPer. If you're a carebear, it's a pain in the butt, a timesink, and all risk with no reward.

So? Where am I going with this - some type of training/arena area. This would build CONFIDENCE in new players and carebears and after a few arena-style fights (ie. 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, or 5v5) - they would get tired of "practice" fights and be excited to get out there and actually participate in the real-deal.

There would be NO REWARDS - by doing so it would eliminate the possibility that people just login and fight in arena style situations. It certainly wouldn't pull existing PvPer's in, as they're already trained and can fight for REAL and make some great ISK by doing so... In fact, it would probably be a good idea to limit the number of fights to 1-2 per day so as to prevent the system from 'stealing' already existing PvPers away from real battle.

I could envision the ability to zone into a battleground type situation and purchase a standard pre-fit type of ship. If you want to learn electronic warfare, you could grab a Blackbird (or equivalent) with standard ECM gear equipped and go learn how to USE it against other players. You would also be able to learn to fly in a fleet in the 5v5 variations and learn the value of having a couple of frigs, an ECM boat, and a few BC/BS's.

This 1. gets rid of the time spent building ships and hunting for a fight 2. builds the desire and confidence of noobs and carebears to defend themselves and actually get more involved in the PvP world instead of crying about it and 3. would allow players to learn new types of ships and the 'stock' fittings associated with that playstyle before they dive into combat and get their ass handed to them.

Again, in no way would I want to see this system distract from the 'real-life' PvP that occurs - but it would be a great option for new players and carebears to learn and build confidence on HOW to participate in both solo and gang warfare. After a handful of skirmishes in a new type of boat, most players would be WANTING to get out there in 'real-life- and try it out in a genuine battle.

I'm interested in hearing thoughts on both how this idea could be better and implemented without impacting the natural flow of the 'real-world' in EvE - and also, feel free to punch holes in the idea as I'm sure there are reprecussions I'm not even thinking about.

Thanks for reading.


The premise that you can convince someone to do something they don't want to do by analyzing why they don't want to do it and changing that factor is fail.

When you find yourself on a forum psychoanalyzing how to make people do what you want them to in a video game, you should take a step back and look at why you are trying to manipulate people's real lives via the internet.
Bluddwolf
Heimatar Military Industries
#143 - 2012-05-21 00:39:33 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
I also wish CCP would intorduce a PVP flagging system. This way, if you wanted to PVP wherever you are, you could just flag yourself for PVP.

Thanks for ruining my game.



Please clarify, why does this ruin your game?

If you want to PVP more often, flag yourself for it. If you don;t want to PVP, don't flag yourself and don't go into low sec or 0.0 space.

I played Fallen Earth for some time, and in that MMO my clan always travelled PVP flagged. There really was a different feel to being a pvper in a game where you did it by choice, and the only targetys you had were those who did it by choice as well. Same went for SWG and other MMOs that use this system.

So, again, please clarify how it ruins your game?

EVE Online Fan ... Looking for "End Game" since 2006 ... Happily, I still havn't found it
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#144 - 2012-05-21 00:48:43 UTC
Do you pvp in EVE? If you do, the answer is kind of obvious. Being in a situation where anyone else can spontaneously initiate hostilities and you are only able to retaliate is entirely different from being in a situation where both parties can attack at any time. And don't compare this to ganking; gankers are guaranteed to lose their ships to CONCORD even if their ganking attempt is unsuccessful. The only people who would use your pvp flag will be the ones with three dozen logistics on standby.

But it's okay, you might get your pvp flag after all if the "suspect flag" idea gets implemented (and it probably will).

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Drakarin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2012-05-21 01:02:53 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Tobiaz wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
As a rich care bear, I'd like to let you know you're wrong. Whilst yes, I do have several crystal/virtue sets I simply JC out of them if I'm going to go fly a frigate hull or something in null sec.

Probably also worth noting, I quite often PvE and scan in whs/null sec with two t3s and two crystal sets and a cov ops scanner with a virtue set. Then again im not exactly a risk averse care bear.

Anyway, this is not exclusive to care bears. I have snake and slave implants for PvP, as do a lot of other PvP players who have ever played in low sec.

Making pods invincible is just stupid, and i think that comes under the label of "dumbing down Eve".

A perfect example how jumpclones have completely undermined some of EVE's core design principles. People shouldn't be able to have a min-maxed jumpclone for every occasion. It breaks the important balance of having to make decisions and deal with the consequences.

Well that is just stupid, should people once they bought a slave set never fly shield ships? Should people with crystals never fly buffer? I have a very expensive clone with nomads and +6% implants, should I never jump out of a super despite owning a holding toon?

Not to mention the fact that without jump clones no low sec pirate or high sec care bear would ever enter null sec ever again.


Huh?

They can fly anything they want. If they decide to buy ultra expensive implants but are not fully committed to using ships and modules that are supported by those implants its their own fault. They can switch them out at their own expense.

Jump clones make the game too easy and safe.
Pres Crendraven
#146 - 2012-05-21 01:28:03 UTC
I agree but OP is taking people that want to change.

Meta34me

Corp and Alliance details hidden to protect the innocent.
Bluddwolf
Heimatar Military Industries
#147 - 2012-05-21 01:58:07 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Being in a situation where anyone else can spontaneously initiate hostilities and you are only able to retaliate is entirely different from being in a situation where both parties can attack at any time. .



How would this be any different then going into low sec?

When we travel into low sec, we are subject to either attack or the other ship will ignore or flee. Just because two ships are flagged, does not mean they will fight. There are always other options.

Having a flag system in high sec, rather than the war dec system, would allow those players who choose to to have PVP where and when they choose. If a corporation or alliance chooses to go to war (pvp flagging their entire membership) that can still be done. They would use whatever internal political process they have for it.

What I'm suggesting is that there be ways to have even more PVP, not less. The only difference is that it would be up to the player whether or not he / she wants to particiapte. Low Sec and Null Sec remain unchanged.

EVE Online Fan ... Looking for "End Game" since 2006 ... Happily, I still havn't found it
Pres Crendraven
#148 - 2012-05-21 02:04:00 UTC
I think this would create more opportunity for pvp also but since WOW has a flag system, were not allowing ourselves to have it. It would make people that want to fight WOWlike.

Meta34me

Corp and Alliance details hidden to protect the innocent.
TravisWB
#149 - 2012-05-21 03:07:34 UTC  |  Edited by: TravisWB
I know most of you just can't figure this out and the belief that mining carebears are rich is almost as rediculous as the claim that most miners are bots.

Most miners actually are barely playing the game. They DO AFK mine most of the time. About the only time they are not afk mining is during a mining op with at least one other actual player with whom they will private convo.

The other mining carebear is usually a socially challenged type player with at least 2 and maybe as many as 9 other accounts, all miners and in the same mini corp.

Put real simply, they are playing EVE the way they want to.

They could care less about PVP and when they are confronted with it, either through wardec or suicide ganking they will almost always do either: Go back into a NPC or if in a NPC and being suicide griefed, they quit the game either for a while but more often, forever.

Mining is what they like to do, most of the time it is ALL they want to do and stamp your feet and hold your breath all you like, they will not change.

I have single handedly destroyed mini- miner corps via wardec.

I have been involved with MANY 50+ member corps and seen them permaquit enmasse so that only a core of a few remain n response to wardecs and suicide griefing.

It is not possible to make carebears do anything other than play the game like they want.

EVE just needs to hope they can attract enough new ones to keep inflation in check.

Hint, THEY CAN'T.
Aggressive Nutmeg
#150 - 2012-05-21 03:25:44 UTC
**** it. Why not have a PvP arena? You could easily create a believable backstory behind this:


  • A CONCORD-controlled system which is 0.0 but with unique conditions;
  • System allows nothing larger than Frigates.
  • Mechanics that guarantee 1v1 fights only. ie. Any third player that jumps in and tries to rep, web, shoot either party is immediately CONCORDED. Big smile


I think this would be a great way to encourage new players to try PvP - albeit a limited form of PvP.

Never make eye contact with someone while eating a banana.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#151 - 2012-05-21 03:54:57 UTC
Good Hedbergite wrote:
How to get carebears to WANT to PvP.



pay them a lot of money to pvp.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
No More Heroes
Boomer Humor
Snuffed Out
#152 - 2012-05-21 04:27:56 UTC
1. Unplug your +5's

2. Target the nearest ship.

3. F1

4. YES

5. DIAF

6. A killer is born.

.
Zoe Athame
Don't Lose Your Way
#153 - 2012-05-21 04:29:56 UTC
Aggressive Nutmeg wrote:
**** it. Why not have a PvP arena? You could easily create a believable backstory behind this:


  • A CONCORD-controlled system which is 0.0 but with unique conditions;
  • System allows nothing larger than Frigates.
  • Mechanics that guarantee 1v1 fights only. ie. Any third player that jumps in and tries to rep, web, shoot either party is immediately CONCORDED. Big smile


I think this would be a great way to encourage new players to try PvP - albeit a limited form of PvP.


Join RvB today!
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#154 - 2012-05-21 08:13:41 UTC
Romar Agent wrote:
Roime wrote:
Romar Agent wrote:
...
So EVE is played by those who like spaceship games. EVE is played by those who like MMOs. EVE is played by people who like spaceship MMOs.


Those are all good reasons to play EVE, but I feel that it didn't exactly answer my question- why only deal with AI in a virtual universe full of real players?

Humans create interesting content, provide endless challenges. I enjoy the sensations of victory and defeat, and CPU, a piece of silicon, is unable to give me those.
Certainly.

I personally play for storylines. In this case storylines embedded into the background of the four large empires. A storyline of slow progression and character development (it could be called grinding standing, but that's maybe half of it).

I do know many people play for challenges, play to feel a rush of adrenaline or to win.

That's not what drives me, I do not play for challenges.

Why? Not sure. I'm basically juggling a work and family life and try to relax by delving into another world then and now. Maybe I don't feel I want to recreate what I can have in life anytime.


Props for putting thought into your answers, I can certainly respect your choices.

Perhaps the way people seek out stress relief is the dividing line here. I need the adrenaline surge to forget work stress and "get away", pvp combat requires intensive concentration and that's the best way for me to relax. Very much like other hobbies, I enjoy pushing myself into situation where full focus is mandatory or **** happens. This also shortens the time needed to relax.

EVE is unique in the way it creates the illusion of danger and risk. I was amazed at the reaction my first pvp encounters caused in me, and immediately hooked - I mean it's damn cheap and comfortable way to get very strong "kicks". I still get a very strong rush every time, and hope it lasts as long as the servers run :)

I can of course appreciate the slower way of immersion you described, just as long as PVE-focused people agree that there is no opt-out from the sandbox and let CCP develop EVE according to their unchanged, 9-year old vision that makes it so unique.

Fly proud!

.
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
#155 - 2012-05-21 08:47:47 UTC
The clones system is strange. Maybe just remove it and "auto-clone" everyone so the lore isn't broken. Taking care of clones and the fear most have that all SP can be lost without proper clone may just be a turn off to pvp.

Odyssey: Repacking in POS hangars for modules +1,  but please for other stuff too, especially containers. Make containers openable in POS hangars.
Cebiana Antonille
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#156 - 2012-05-21 09:33:41 UTC
You want carebears to pvp. Well they do, lots and lots of them do, ya just gotta find 'em. My alt is a high sec pvp'r and MANY players up here love to pvp and are always looking for can fights, and other ways to pvp (and I am not talking about noob baiting) What would really jumpstart high sec pvp? pvp systems that we ourselves start pvp'ing in.

For instance INARI would be awesome. It is close enough to Jita so peeps can refit a new ship after a loss. It does not have a high occupancy generally and it is .05 sec so those of you who have taken standing hits can jump in to fight. Unpas is another system that some people are trying to jump start as a pvp system. It is next to Uitra which is a known pvp spot, but since it is a rookie system you can get banned by a cranky GM for tossing out a can.

Inari and Unpas - get the word out and kick a can out
Jenn Ymor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#157 - 2012-05-21 10:52:36 UTC
I think if carebears want to pvp they will do it on their own terms, when they want and where they want. I encountered quite some pve-bears in my last years, and a surprising number of them at least had some genuine interest in pvp-activities, but were put off for a number of reasons.
Some of those are just plain stupid, like believing that a certain number of skillpoints and/or skills is needed, or that you need at least some billions to fund your pvp-urges.
Some are just based on a lack of information, like how does the flag system work, criminal flags, security standings and so on, and the willingness to learn more about those systems.
And some were introduced to pvp in the wrong way, like you join a starter-corp that gets war decced and play station games all day long. No fun, so some just assume this IS pvp and dismiss it as boring.

I had to take severall attempts at pvp, and in some cases failed miserably. I started in FW, which just didn't work out all to well for newbie that know nothing about basic fleet tactics. Then I took into low with throw away ships and couldn't find fights, 'cause in eve you only attack when you know that your chances are better than your enemies. I got some thrills, but not much experience. Some field trips to Nullsec also didn't work out too well with bubbles on the entry gates.

What is missing is some kind of tutorial for PvP beginners. Sure, player corps can take this place, and many do, but not all carebears want to change corps to learn more about PvP. That's where we should start.
Jie Jue
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#158 - 2012-05-21 11:06:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jie Jue
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
I also wish CCP would intorduce a PVP flagging system. This way, if you wanted to PVP wherever you are, you could just flag yourself for PVP.
Best idea yet ^^
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#159 - 2012-05-21 11:12:09 UTC
Jie Jue wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
I also wish CCP would intorduce a PVP flagging system. This way, if you wanted to PVP wherever you are, you could just flag yourself for PVP.
Best idea yet ^^


Stupidest idea ever.

EVE is a virtual world, and that kind of flag would be stupidly unrealistic and immersion-breaking.

Stop thinking in terms of "PVP" and "PVE", it's just EVE.

.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#160 - 2012-05-21 11:43:15 UTC
Drakarin wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Well that is just stupid, should people once they bought a slave set never fly shield ships? Should people with crystals never fly buffer? I have a very expensive clone with nomads and +6% implants, should I never jump out of a super despite owning a holding toon?

Not to mention the fact that without jump clones no low sec pirate or high sec care bear would ever enter null sec ever again.


Huh?

They can fly anything they want. If they decide to buy ultra expensive implants but are not fully committed to using ships and modules that are supported by those implants its their own fault. They can switch them out at their own expense.

Jump clones make the game too easy and safe.

Well that's nice, but since you don't PvP and definitely don't own any capitals (let alone supers/titans) it probably wouldn't be an issue for you. Especially since I find it unlikely you even own any crystal/slave/snake/nomad/virtue sets.

For the rest of us who actually use these implants, and can afford the ships they go with, being locked into only ever flying one or two different ships is a good way to make us get bored and quit.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]