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How to get carebears to WANT to PvP!
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MrDiao
Fuxi Legion
Fraternity.
#121 - 2012-05-20 21:23:07 UTC
GANK THEM
Wilma Lawson
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#122 - 2012-05-20 21:43:04 UTC
MrDiao wrote:
GANK THEM

Yes, this has worked in the past.Roll
Pres Crendraven
#123 - 2012-05-20 21:44:36 UTC
Excellent!

Can you do that today? Can I limit these what ifs at this point to very new players, say under two weeks? You only get about 50000 skillpoints to start but at the end of a couple weeks your rifters would be pretty potent. Could be quite a battlefield to walk in with a few 6 man gangs potentially in the wings.

What if we limited isk supplements for the first couple weeks? so we have a level playing field with isk as well as skillpoints? Would that discourage nooblet griefers enough?

And from the new customers point of view:

Since we have to work to pay for our next ship and its in an at war environment, How long should a mining or ratting or missioning velator need to work to buy a new pvp frigate and meta0 mods?

How would PVE under war conditions be perceived by a noob? Exciting but necessary or overwhelming?

Meta34me

Corp and Alliance details hidden to protect the innocent.
Pres Crendraven
#124 - 2012-05-20 21:46:38 UTC
Fabulousli Obvious wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:


Not only did some of Eve's player base come here with no intention of ever PvPing, they came here with no intention of interacting with the sand box elements of Eve online in any way. Even in low sec.


Now THAT is silly of them indeed.

Anyway, what these "PvP or ELSE" folks do not seem to understand is that some people actually have (shocker!) Lives.

They just do not have the time for the coordination of fleets, battles, waiting at gates, and all the other stuff that goes into true combat scenarios. Much less Alarm Clock Ops. That stuff is pretty much expected of those who participate. These people will NEVER never get involved.

If cCP has determined that this is not the case and all must participate in this in some manner, that's fine. But they need to plan on a flood of unsubscriptions, and to STOP ADVERTISING EVE AS A SANDBOX.

Then there would be no issue.


I think this is very valid, I've come to a conclusion that our fleet window and social networking software is the bottleneck at this stage of the game.

Meta34me

Corp and Alliance details hidden to protect the innocent.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#125 - 2012-05-20 21:59:11 UTC
Quote:
some type of training/arena area.


some type of "ground" you could "battle" on

a "battleground" if you will. And it could offer capture and hold or CTF style play...

go back to WoW :P

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#126 - 2012-05-20 23:00:37 UTC
Pok Nibin wrote:
Funny how Vyl's question just got OVERLOOKED. WHY? What's the POINT? This constant harangue about carebears and PvP is getting to be no more than digital nailbiting. So, I'll TELL you why. There IS no why. What we have here are people trying something they've little skill with - THINKING. We should pay some people NOT to think.

Carebears MUST PvP, or ELSE! I'd rather listen to a 4-year old crying in the mall cause momma won't buy that toy.
It makes more sense.

Carebears don't have to pvp, they simply have to stop their whining and incessant pleas for CCP to change the rules when they get exposed to pvp without their consent.

Ilnaurk Sithdogron wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Arenas simply don't belong in EVE. As special events, sure, but not as a feature. For that, we have the test server.

In my opinion, a much better method would be to tie pvp into missions. Not that that would change much, since they'd just stop running missions anyway. These people are called carebears for a reason. They will use any excuse, and find any means, to avoid in-game situations that even slightly raise their heart rates.


A lot of you nullsec people who tell high-sec dwellers to HTFU need to take a long look at themselves.

I know that most nullsec players immediately go cower in their PoS when a single AFK cloaker appears in the system. Whenever I leave a station, I accept the fact that I could die at any time and I am willing to take that risk, but apparently many nullsec players aren't willing to do the same. Seems like many of you folks are sheep in wolves' clothing.

I haven't been in null since 2009, and that type of attitude is exactly why I decided to leave. Everyone single one of my combat characters now either does high-sec or wormhole pvp.

Pres Crendraven wrote:
All that stayed had similar characteristics, we all took care of each other. CAREBEARS at heart stayed. Fathers, older brothers, commanders and supervisors in real life. Many ridicule these people but If I started a corp today they would be my directors, not the pvpers. I would not care. I'd run through PVP'ers like a meat-grinder if I could find a way to fund it that hasn't been nerfed to death.

But you'd still be better off with a person who understands the meaning behind violence. A hundred sheep led by a lion are more dangerous than a hundred lions led by a sheep. Maybe that's why your efforts to grind up the pvpers have been fruitless all this time.

Pres Crendraven wrote:
I can put a new BC together in a couple hours. a noob has to play for a couple weeks to put a nice frigate together.

That's insane. I don't mean to insult you, but how bad at the game do you have to be for that to be the case? Eight years ago, I had my first million in fifteen minutes of starting my first character. Money was a whole lot less common back then.

Weeks for a frigate? Really?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#127 - 2012-05-20 23:07:58 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Fabulousli Obvious wrote:
That stuff is pretty much expected of those who participate. These people will NEVER never get involved.

I'd also like to add that I do actually agree with this. I used to help run a 350 man low sec alliance, I no longer have the time to do so and do not personally engage in very much PvP.

That said, my PvE activities put me at risk of non-consensual PvP. And this is what most of us are talking about when we talk about forcing care bears to accept that PvP is a way of life in Eve.

Not forcing people to gate camp, go to CTAs or lead fleets but merely to accept that they must avoid PvP in order to PvE effectively.



Yes, I understand this about the sandbox, and that is indeed how it's been for the over 2 years I've played. And the 'occasionally intrusive' PvP has always been manageable.

It's only been the past couple of months that a complete hostile eye has been turned towards everything high sec, especially the ideas of mining and Industry. And a real concerted focus to get Industrialists to fight for the right to do what they do, as IF they have to hold some kind of magical Sov in High Sec they were not told about. I thought fighting for your right to 'great stuff' was for Low and Null. Gee, lets change the rules UTTERLY in the middle. Ha HA, funny.....now give me my money back.

Add to this the near record number of War Decs esp. from the Goons upon tiny Corps....they simply CANNOT fight them. Not even financially. Maybe economically by never buying Moon Products Of Any Kind, but that'll be a really cold day in Hell. Unless every High Sec Industrialist stops making T2. Welp, guess what, that's moving to Low apparently, so we may as well just hand all that over to them now and just be done. More for Goons. Yay.

THIS is my problem, not the freaking simplistic 'risk of PvP'.

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#128 - 2012-05-20 23:13:16 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

Carebears don't have to pvp, they simply have to stop their whining and incessant pleas for CCP to change the rules when they get exposed to pvp without their consent.


True, agreed. But they have the right to scream and kick and bite and speak their minds when their tiny High-Sec Corps are expected to defend against 20,000 coordinated CFC's, and MORE power to them.

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900
Pres Crendraven
#129 - 2012-05-20 23:14:01 UTC
Destiny, No doubt I blame myself, thats why I still look for answers. How did you make 4 million an hour in the first 15 minutes of the game. Serioulsly. How much does a level one mission pay? how fast does a velator mine. I'm talking about a new character not an alt. You waltzed right in here and earned 4 million an hour? I like your alt perspective cause it shows where my ideas can be broken but Lets get on the same page, in a real noobs shoes not an alt. I came in as minmatar in highsec with zero MMO experience and zero Eve experience

Meta34me

Corp and Alliance details hidden to protect the innocent.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#130 - 2012-05-20 23:18:25 UTC
Fabulousli Obvious wrote:
It's only been the past couple of months that a complete hostile eye has been turned towards everything high sec, especially the ideas of mining and Industry. And a real concerted focus to get Industrialists to fight for the right to do what they do, as IF they have to hold some kind of magical Sov in High Sec they were not told about. I thought fighting for your right to 'great stuff' was for Low and Null. Gee, lets change the rules UTTERLY in the middle. Ha HA, funny.....now give me my money back.

Well, you thought wrong. The players made the rules, not the developers from whom you want to take back your money. You have an issue with this new type of player behavior? Change it by force or persuasion, and not by mommy's hand.

Fabulousli Obvious wrote:
Add to this the near record number of War Decs esp. from the Goons upon tiny Corps....they simply CANNOT fight them. Not even financially. Maybe economically by never buying Moon Products Of Any Kind, but that'll be a really cold day in Hell. Unless every High Sec Industrialist stops making T2. Welp, guess what, that's moving to Low apparently, so we may as well just hand all that over to them now and just be done. More for Goons. Yay.

THIS is my problem, not the freaking simplistic 'risk of PvP'.

Goons wardec small corporations? When did this happen? Also, I find it laughable that you think carebears make T2 goods. No, carebears mine Veldspar, produce Ospreys and T1 mining crystals, and pat themselves on the back for their grandiose contribution to the game. The industrialists who run research and production POSes that take care of the T2 market play on a level that actually requires them to know how to defend their assets. On top of that, these industrialists know that the only reason their goods get bought is because players like myself constantly blow them up.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#131 - 2012-05-20 23:20:16 UTC
Fabulousli Obvious wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Fabulousli Obvious wrote:
That stuff is pretty much expected of those who participate. These people will NEVER never get involved.

I'd also like to add that I do actually agree with this. I used to help run a 350 man low sec alliance, I no longer have the time to do so and do not personally engage in very much PvP.

That said, my PvE activities put me at risk of non-consensual PvP. And this is what most of us are talking about when we talk about forcing care bears to accept that PvP is a way of life in Eve.

Not forcing people to gate camp, go to CTAs or lead fleets but merely to accept that they must avoid PvP in order to PvE effectively.



Yes, I understand this about the sandbox, and that is indeed how it's been for the over 2 years I've played. And the 'occasionally intrusive' PvP has always been manageable.

It's only been the past couple of months that a complete hostile eye has been turned towards everything high sec, especially the ideas of mining and Industry. And a real concerted focus to get Industrialists to fight for the right to do what they do, as IF they have to hold some kind of magical Sov in High Sec they were not told about. I thought fighting for your right to 'great stuff' was for Low and Null. Gee, lets change the rules UTTERLY in the middle. Ha HA, funny.....now give me my money back.

Add to this the near record number of War Decs esp. from the Goons upon tiny Corps....they simply CANNOT fight them. Not even financially. Maybe economically by never buying Moon Products Of Any Kind, but that'll be a really cold day in Hell. Unless every High Sec Industrialist stops making T2. Welp, guess what, that's moving to Low apparently, so we may as well just hand all that over to them now and just be done. More for Goons. Yay.

THIS is my problem, not the freaking simplistic 'risk of PvP'.


Have you actually looked at the changes planned by CCP? Even their war mechanics changes are buffs for high sec bears.

The only recent nerf to high sec was the incursion changes. Other than that I don't really see where this CCP goon stuff is coming from. I mean more ISK for goons because t2 production is moving to low sec? Really?

How are goons going to profit from that more than anybody else in null or low sec? And how would not buying tech hurt the goons? You think tech is their only source of income, or that they are the only suppliers of tech? OTEC control a reasonable amount of the tech supply, but OTEC isn't just goons. And even if it was, they don't control all the tech moons in Eve.

It just sounds like you're angry, but you aren't being very clear as to what about. Did he goons war dec you? Targetted in hulkageddon? Just fed up of reading these threads? Whatever it is, to be honest I cannot see it being a direct result of real changes by CCP. Because those changes just don't exist.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#132 - 2012-05-20 23:21:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Fabulousli Obvious wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

Carebears don't have to pvp, they simply have to stop their whining and incessant pleas for CCP to change the rules when they get exposed to pvp without their consent.


True, agreed. But they have the right to scream and kick and bite and speak their minds when their tiny High-Sec Corps are expected to defend against 20,000 coordinated CFC's, and MORE power to them.

Nvm, scratch my above comment.

My money is on the goons war deccing you.

*EDIT: Alt from the Honda accord I presume? Telling everyone you are going to quit because Issler told you she is "littlerally" being attacked by the CSM? You should just go awoxxer, kill issler and join goons. They are more fun, treat their members better and they don't whine and threaten to unsub.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#133 - 2012-05-20 23:25:07 UTC
The game and the idea of PVP must evolve.

Most PVP is stupid ship loss in blob and get blobbed tactics. Even if you can get a carebear to like that, it will get old.

Those of us who don't throw ships into meat grinders look at the "Leet PVPer" as they brag about needing an alt for scouting, and alt for industry, and an alt for incursions/missions and think "idiot".

And I find that the "leet" are hugging high sec as much as the carebears do, but for different reasons. The game is very huge, but to both carebear and the elites who hunt them, their approach to the game still puts them in a very small box.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#134 - 2012-05-20 23:26:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Pres Crendraven wrote:
Destiny, No doubt I blame myself, thats why I still look for answers. How did you make 4 million an hour in the first 15 minutes of the game. Serioulsly. How much does a level one mission pay? how fast does a velator mine. I'm talking about a new character not an alt. You waltzed right in here and earned 4 million an hour? I like your alt perspective cause it shows where my ideas can be broken but Lets get on the same page, in a real noobs shoes not an alt. I came in as minmatar in highsec with zero MMO experience and zero Eve experience

I did the training complex in Duripant, looted all the cans, then refined everything at the station and sold the minerals to buy orders. Combined with the 5,000 ISK I started with, I clearly remember having almost a million ISK in my wallet in just a few minutes. My attitude toward the game wasn't "oh gawd, dis so compleks! how to doing stuffz??/" My attitude was "hm, I'm going to shoot this thing with this gun I have, and then pry whatever it drops from its cold, dead hands."

Within just a few days, I learned the market system and did the buy low/sell high thing. That was back when we had NPC trade good courier routes.

I sold my first "Cerberus" only three weeks into the game.

Edit: I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's all about attitude and due diligence in research. If you treat a competitive, pvp-focused MMO as something you play to unwind from a day of filing papers at the office by peacefully mining some space rocks, then you've already made a critical mistake. I'm not a type-A personality by any means, but somehow, I've managed to do just fine.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#135 - 2012-05-20 23:28:34 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
The game and the idea of PVP must evolve.

Most PVP is stupid ship loss in blob and get blobbed tactics. Even if you can get a carebear to like that, it will get old.

Those of us who don't throw ships into meat grinders look at the "Leet PVPer" as they brag about needing an alt for scouting, and alt for industry, and an alt for incursions/missions and think "idiot".

And I find that the "leet" are hugging high sec as much as the carebears do, but for different reasons. The game is very huge, but to both carebear and the elites who hunt them, their approach to the game still puts them in a very small box.



Hates blobs, doesn't scout.

I like your style.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#136 - 2012-05-20 23:39:01 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
The game and the idea of PVP must evolve.

Most PVP is stupid ship loss in blob and get blobbed tactics. Even if you can get a carebear to like that, it will get old.

Those of us who don't throw ships into meat grinders look at the "Leet PVPer" as they brag about needing an alt for scouting, and alt for industry, and an alt for incursions/missions and think "idiot".

And I find that the "leet" are hugging high sec as much as the carebears do, but for different reasons. The game is very huge, but to both carebear and the elites who hunt them, their approach to the game still puts them in a very small box.



Hates blobs, doesn't scout.

I like your style.



No you should hate my style and me along with it. What's wrong with you?


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#137 - 2012-05-20 23:39:06 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Fabulousli Obvious wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

Carebears don't have to pvp, they simply have to stop their whining and incessant pleas for CCP to change the rules when they get exposed to pvp without their consent.


True, agreed. But they have the right to scream and kick and bite and speak their minds when their tiny High-Sec Corps are expected to defend against 20,000 coordinated CFC's, and MORE power to them.

Nvm, scratch my above comment.

My money is on the goons war deccing you.

*EDIT: Alt from the Honda accord I presume? Telling everyone you are going to quit because Issler told you she is "littlerally" being attacked by the CSM? You should just go awoxxer, kill issler and join goons. They are more fun, treat their members better and they don't whine and threaten to unsub.




lol. Nope. I just read the news and forums. And hear Local chatter. Especially the Local chatter. Used to not happen that much, but people are actually talking about this stuff.

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900
Bluddwolf
Heimatar Military Industries
#138 - 2012-05-20 23:39:48 UTC
Good Hedbergite wrote:
I'm a new player (9M SP) returning after a two year hiatus. It seems the carebear vs PvPer mentalities haven't changed one bit, so I've come up with an idea that could encourage new players and carebears to actually WANT to get more involved with PvP and it's simple - hands on training!

The biggest part of the problem is that most noobs and carebears don't know how to fight and learning is a huge time and ISK investment they don't feel like making.

This time around, I'm much more interested in PvPing (I was a carebear last time) - so I don't mind spending the time and ISK - but here's the typical scenario for getting some practice at PvP:

Build a ship - 15-30 minutes
Fly to an area and hunt for a semi-fair fight - 15-30+ minutes
Fight and die - approx 3-5 minutes

So roughly an hour+ investment for 3-minutes of actual "fight training" - which is fine if you WANT to be a PvPer. If you're a carebear, it's a pain in the butt, a timesink, and all risk with no reward.

So? Where am I going with this



Where you are going wrong is in the very premise of what you are hoping to do. Honestly, if you have noticed that after two years, the "Carebear vs. PVPer" is still going on, maybe you should just accept it as a given dynamic of the game.

Some people just want to casually play their game and remain in high sec, mining, trading, manufacturing, researching or mission running. Why is it that anyone should want them to change their play style?

I am also looking to do some more PVP myself. But, I don't expect others to change their play style so I can do it. I will take my ship out into low sec and search for a target. I also hate to be forced to PVP when I don't want to. I hate war decs, and I usually avoid them by switching to an alt to make my isk for my main toon. I really wish CCP would just make war decs mutual and tie them some kind of a reward system (LPs) to encourage corporations who decide they do want to go to war.

I also wish CCP would intorduce a PVP flagging system. This way, if you wanted to PVP wherever you are, you could just flag yourself for PVP.

Bottomline is, there is plenty of PVP out there if you want it. Unless you're willing to pay the subscription of another player, let them play their way.

EVE Online Fan ... Looking for "End Game" since 2006 ... Happily, I still havn't found it
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#139 - 2012-05-20 23:41:35 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:

Whatever it is, to be honest I cannot see it being a direct result of real changes by CCP. Because those changes just don't exist.


The willingly blind will stay that way.

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#140 - 2012-05-20 23:51:35 UTC
Fabulousli Obvious wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:

Whatever it is, to be honest I cannot see it being a direct result of real changes by CCP. Because those changes just don't exist.


The willingly blind will stay that way.

I especially like the part where you link the changes.

Even the new war system CCP have backed out of adding the deserter flag, as it stands now the new war system does nothing but close corp hopping abuse that was being used to hide WTs from scouts until they undocked/entered system. It also adds the ally system, which is supposed to help care bears, but to be honest probably won't.

Care bears can still drop to NPC, or disband corp and reform. Or swap to a different corp until the dec is over etc. Nothing has changed.

Besides that the only changes have been to buff concord response, to kill the boomerang and to remove insurance. Yeah, CCP really have it in for the care bears, eh? Roll

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]