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How to get carebears to WANT to PvP!
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Aemonchichi
Limited Access
#61 - 2012-05-20 11:53:24 UTC
knulla wrote:



It is not wrong, it is fact, you argue gravity also? let me guess? 1+1=whatever the **** you feel like? Lol

Game is not RL right... but you realize that you can't do *anything you want in EVE right? There are such a thing as limitations and set rules and game mechanics, I could go on forever trying to explain this I see.

"lol", that is not funny, I am dead serious, find another game!

Yep it is true, so why then do you have to have highsec 100% safe and why does a carebear have to fight in EVE at all and only love in Jita?

orly? orly! Here is a newsflash, PVP players like to protect their industry!!

60% wrong? you are 90% wrong!


son, you cannot force someone in a game, u might force someones avatar out of his ship by pewpewing and to dim persons that could of course look like they forced a player to something but no

you can pvp with people that want to pvp with you, you can mine together with ur buddies, you can kick someone out of his space, in all that u havent forced anyone , these ppl are there cause they want , so pls realize u are missing the point here

pls be specific in what u want to do in eve that u cant cause of ruleset, game mechanics, maybe then its easier to understand what u are raging about Smile

you are dead serious ? lol again

highsec is 100% save ? you are sure u are playing the same eve as we do ?

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#62 - 2012-05-20 12:04:13 UTC
Aemonchichi wrote:
dear destiny corrupted,

when i am talking of expensive implants i am talking of +5 and +5% at least, i know that +3/4s are used in pvp, i did never say pvp use no implants

Most dedicated pvpers (not all, just most) use pirate sets in high/low-sec. I'm talking stuff like Slave implants, of which even a low-grade set would cost upwards of a billion ISK.

Aemonchichi wrote:
and when i am talking of wealth i refer to the last ccp report where there was an average wealth in ISKies of 300 mio average

And that number includes all the people who played for a week and then quit (the majority of people who have tried EVE at some point in their lives), and the outliers like the old-money T2 BPO barons and alliance checkbook characters with trillions of lSK. When you consider the data analysis methods used to reach the 300-million figure, it makes a whole lot more sense. How about you give me the median value instead, then we'll talk.

Aemonchichi wrote:
its is easy to make jc if u use j services but that requires you to join a corp and in a game of mistrust and paranoia this is not an easy way 8)

You can make jump clones without joining another corporation, via the use of a Rorqual. I have made about two-thirds of my clones using this method. Also, claiming that the service providers with hundreds of pages of positive feedback don't make proper enough accommodations to relieve mistrust and paranoia is absurd. You're simply trying to blow the difficulty level associated with the process out of proportion.

Aemonchichi wrote:
oh and your point of "useless" players that dont contribute...

woah dude careful, neither u and me have numbers cause ccp doesnt tell us but honestly even just only playing for their account and doing nothing else is ok for me cause that means ccp earny money and can invest part of that back in the game for our all benefit (the part they are not spending on 1000$ designer jeans Cool )

I don't have to be careful. The average flesh-based high-sec miner contributes as much to the game as a beep-boop bot.

CCP apparently has no qualms in regards to getting rid of the latter.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Aemonchichi
Limited Access
#63 - 2012-05-20 12:20:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Aemonchichi
Most dedicated pvpers (not all, just most) use pirate sets in high/low-sec. I'm talking stuff like Slave implants, of which even a low-grade set would cost upwards of a billion ISK.

ok, i still dont get your point , you stated now multiple times that u use super expensive kick ass imps - why ? to tell us u and ur buddies are cool bros ? kay u are cool, dude - i still tell u that highsec carebears use expensive implants and that is not motivating them to try out pvp, cause podding happens and then imps are gone

And that number includes all the people who played for a week and then quit (the majority of people who have tried EVE at some point in their lives), and the outliers like the old-money T2 BPO barons and alliance checkbook characters with trillions of lSK. When you consider the data analysis methods used to reach the 300-million figure, it makes a whole lot more sense. How about you give me the median value instead, then we'll talk.

i thought these 300 mio are a median value , how come you think ccp included accounts that are inactive, ppl that quitted, into this ?

You can make jump clones without joining another corporation, via the use of a Rorqual. I have made about two-thirds of my clones using this method. Also, claiming that the service providers with hundreds of pages of positive feedback don't make proper enough accommodations to relieve mistrust and paranoia is absurd. You're simply trying to blow the difficulty level associated with the process out of proportion.

you seem eager to compare everything with your person, thats hard cause we talk about highsec carebears and u dont seem like one of these, i still say for a highsec carebear its not easy to get a jump clone, considering most of them even dont look at these forums (i think burn jita showed that)


I don't have to be careful. The average flesh-based high-sec miner contributes as much to the game as a beep-boop bot.

you may think that - i dont 8)

CCP apparently has no qualms in regards to getting rid of the latter.

here i must ask u for clarification - english is not my native language, i think i speak it pretty well but "qualms" is a thing i dont understand 8) if possible pls rephrase


edit: typo
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#64 - 2012-05-20 12:22:20 UTC
Why do people want to do only PVE in an MMO?

What's the point?

.
Romar Agent
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#65 - 2012-05-20 12:35:12 UTC
Roime wrote:
Why do people want to do only PVE in an MMO?

What's the point?


I can only speak for myself.

I'm playing EVE, because it's a spaceship game, on top of that one with amazing graphics and great mechanics. Even more so I'm playing EVE, because it's Elite, erm - 4.

I wouldn't have a chance to reexperience Elite in that quality with another game.

That's disconnected from the fact that EVE is an MMO. EVE being an MMO is natural as MMOs are the hype these days.

It doesn't negate the fact that EVE is also a spaceship game.

So two characteristics:

1. Genre: Spaceship game connected to the Elite series. Draws SciFi-fans as well as nostalgic players of the latter.

2. Game type: MMO. Draws players who want to connect to others, and/or to compete with others.

So EVE is played by those who like spaceship games. EVE is played by those who like MMOs. EVE is played by people who like spaceship MMOs.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2012-05-20 12:50:00 UTC
Knus'lar wrote:
I think the BEST way to get carebears to want to pvp is to take them and put them through a crucible of violence. Blow them up so much they harden into tough pirates


Yeah that will totally make them want to PvP and not the opposite.

Totally.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#67 - 2012-05-20 13:00:34 UTC
Roime wrote:
Why do people want to do only PVE in an MMO?

What's the point?


To be fair I mostly just PvE these days, despite having started out as a PvP character.

That said, I PvE because making large amounts of ISK in this game is still a challenge and because PvE is intertwined with PvP. If PvE were segregated and themepark MMO style like some high sec care bears would like it to be it would defeat the purpose of this being an MMO.

Not to mention the fact that in a conflict driven market segregated PvE and PvP is the primary cause of mudflation.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Galega Ori
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2012-05-20 13:01:56 UTC
Klavis lychnuchus wrote:
What we need are Tax bracket options for corpies, so a 23.5 / 7 PVE monkey has no barrier for entry to the corps and is left to do just what he loves but at a much higher tax rate. He can rat/mission/plex all day everyday earning meaningful income for a Corp he would otherwise just be leaching from.

Those with the ambition and ability to defend themselves can do so too and pay less tax and be confident in a Corporations ship replacement program to be fit for purpose.

As a useful corallary they would perhaps take more interest in defending corp assets if they get put on a lower tax rate!


Your idea is dead before it even gets to the starting line due to the fact that why should someone who likes running missions and not pvping pay more in corp taxes to be apart of your corp when he/she can pay less in a npc corp or apart of a corp he or she made. What?

also, clarify how the player doing nothing but pve is leaching from the corp when in reality the corp is the one leaching from the pve player through tax?

CCP Eterne: Silly Player, ALL devs are evil.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#69 - 2012-05-20 13:05:27 UTC
Galega Ori wrote:
Klavis lychnuchus wrote:
What we need are Tax bracket options for corpies, so a 23.5 / 7 PVE monkey has no barrier for entry to the corps and is left to do just what he loves but at a much higher tax rate. He can rat/mission/plex all day everyday earning meaningful income for a Corp he would otherwise just be leaching from.

Those with the ambition and ability to defend themselves can do so too and pay less tax and be confident in a Corporations ship replacement program to be fit for purpose.

As a useful corallary they would perhaps take more interest in defending corp assets if they get put on a lower tax rate!


Your idea is dead before it even gets to the starting line due to the fact that why should someone who likes running missions and not pvping pay more in corp taxes to be apart of your corp when he/she can pay less in a npc corp or apart of a corp he or she made. What?

also, clarify how the player doing nothing but pve is leaching from the corp when in reality the corp is the one leaching from the pve player through tax?

Some corps (outside of high sec) actually provide a service for their members. Hence a member who does not contribute is leaching.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#70 - 2012-05-20 13:10:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Galega Ori wrote:
Your idea is dead before it even gets to the starting line due to the fact that why should someone who likes running missions and not pvping pay more in corp taxes to be apart of your corp when he/she can pay less in a npc corp or apart of a corp he or she made. What?

also, clarify how the player doing nothing but pve is leaching from the corp when in reality the corp is the one leaching from the pve player through tax?

A proper corporation will take the effort to protect such a player, for mutual benefit. However, most players simply aren't rational, and let greed take over. The carebears feel entitled to protection for free, and because they can't get it, they whine for changes. On the other hand, most corporations have terrible leadership, are unprofitable, and militarily-weak; they are unable to protect their industrialists regardless of the latter's willingness to contribute.

The solution is to significantly bump up the NPC corporation tax. This would then shift the focus on player-run corporations, and force well-run corporations to emerge out of necessity. The existence of the 11% freebie options makes all others useless.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#71 - 2012-05-20 13:14:47 UTC
Romar Agent wrote:
Roime wrote:
Why do people want to do only PVE in an MMO?

What's the point?


I can only speak for myself.

I'm playing EVE, because it's a spaceship game, on top of that one with amazing graphics and great mechanics. Even more so I'm playing EVE, because it's Elite, erm - 4.

I wouldn't have a chance to reexperience Elite in that quality with another game.

That's disconnected from the fact that EVE is an MMO. EVE being an MMO is natural as MMOs are the hype these days.

It doesn't negate the fact that EVE is also a spaceship game.

So two characteristics:

1. Genre: Spaceship game connected to the Elite series. Draws SciFi-fans as well as nostalgic players of the latter.

2. Game type: MMO. Draws players who want to connect to others, and/or to compete with others.

So EVE is played by those who like spaceship games. EVE is played by those who like MMOs. EVE is played by people who like spaceship MMOs.


Nicely put, that's it. EVE relishes in holding a monopoly and as with all monopolies, that leads to evil.
Drakarin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2012-05-20 13:20:58 UTC
While you're at it, why not allow a mutual form of combat in high security space? Between two parties agreeing to the rules of open combat with variants and options before hand. Basically, a formal and complex form of dueling. There is no reason not to. People do it already, only it's clunky via cans. New players don't even know about this.

You could even allow for betting. And you could specific if the fight is to the death or not. If the rules state it's not to the death but your opponent finishes you off anyways, Concord will respawn in force like usual. Nothing complicated.

Would be a good way to get new players feet wet to experience how different a player ship fights (and how much more dangerous it is than NPC ships) without much hassle. Easy to program too I would imagine.
Captain Catchup
Doomheim
#73 - 2012-05-20 13:27:29 UTC
It may have been mentioned in a previous post but i dont have the energy or care to read responses to the same 25 people who spam this forum multiple times daily.

its SIMPLE - remove killrights. believe it or not that "carebear" wants to pvp some of the time, he just doesnt want to pvp 24/7. people want to pvp and go back to doing what they were doing without getting jumped while in their money maker (stabbed in the back), whether its a 2 bill isk mission boat or a hulk etc...

so all these threads about trying to get "carebears" to pvp is useless, the ones who dont want to pvp wont and the ones that do dont want to sign up for 30 days of it they want to go pvp have fun and go back to what they are doing. GET RID OF KILLRIGHTS and watch what happens....

so what you end up with is a bunch of players waiting years before they are ready because they feel once they start they have to continue (just one more skill and im ready..... sound famaliar?)

im a 4 year long carebear player that has wanted to pvp all along, and has only trained combat skills and im telling you WHY i dont pvp yet and this is the only reason, get real - noone cares about losing a goddamn ship that only took 20 minutes to earn its risking the 5 bill ship from killrights from pvping in the cheap one. Roll
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#74 - 2012-05-20 13:32:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
Simi Kusoni wrote:
As a rich care bear, I'd like to let you know you're wrong. Whilst yes, I do have several crystal/virtue sets I simply JC out of them if I'm going to go fly a frigate hull or something in null sec.

Probably also worth noting, I quite often PvE and scan in whs/null sec with two t3s and two crystal sets and a cov ops scanner with a virtue set. Then again im not exactly a risk averse care bear.

Anyway, this is not exclusive to care bears. I have snake and slave implants for PvP, as do a lot of other PvP players who have ever played in low sec.

Making pods invincible is just stupid, and i think that comes under the label of "dumbing down Eve".

A perfect example how jumpclones have completely undermined some of EVE's core design principles. People shouldn't be able to have a min-maxed jumpclone for every occasion. It breaks the important balance of having to make decisions and deal with the consequences.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#75 - 2012-05-20 13:43:16 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
As a rich care bear, I'd like to let you know you're wrong. Whilst yes, I do have several crystal/virtue sets I simply JC out of them if I'm going to go fly a frigate hull or something in null sec.

Probably also worth noting, I quite often PvE and scan in whs/null sec with two t3s and two crystal sets and a cov ops scanner with a virtue set. Then again im not exactly a risk averse care bear.

Anyway, this is not exclusive to care bears. I have snake and slave implants for PvP, as do a lot of other PvP players who have ever played in low sec.

Making pods invincible is just stupid, and i think that comes under the label of "dumbing down Eve".

A perfect example how jumpclones have completely undermined some of EVE's core design principles. People shouldn't be able to have a min-maxed jumpclone for every occasion. It breaks the important balance of having to make decisions and deal with the consequences.

Well that is just stupid, should people once they bought a slave set never fly shield ships? Should people with crystals never fly buffer? I have a very expensive clone with nomads and +6% implants, should I never jump out of a super despite owning a holding toon?

Not to mention the fact that without jump clones no low sec pirate or high sec care bear would ever enter null sec ever again.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#76 - 2012-05-20 13:49:15 UTC
Captain Catchup wrote:
It may have been mentioned in a previous post but i dont have the energy or care to read responses to the same 25 people who spam this forum multiple times daily.

its SIMPLE - remove killrights. believe it or not that "carebear" wants to pvp some of the time, he just doesnt want to pvp 24/7. people want to pvp and go back to doing what they were doing without getting jumped while in their money maker (stabbed in the back), whether its a 2 bill isk mission boat or a hulk etc...

so all these threads about trying to get "carebears" to pvp is useless, the ones who dont want to pvp wont and the ones that do dont want to sign up for 30 days of it they want to go pvp have fun and go back to what they are doing. GET RID OF KILLRIGHTS and watch what happens....

so what you end up with is a bunch of players waiting years before they are ready because they feel once they start they have to continue (just one more skill and im ready..... sound famaliar?)

im a 4 year long carebear player that has wanted to pvp all along, and has only trained combat skills and im telling you WHY i dont pvp yet and this is the only reason, get real - noone cares about losing a goddamn ship that only took 20 minutes to earn its risking the 5 bill ship from killrights from pvping in the cheap one. Roll


Almost nobody ever makes use of their killrights, just ask around the ganker community for confirmation. In the all years that killrights have existed I can scarcely remember any victims that got 'even' using their killrights.

Just because it holds you personally back from misbehavin', doesn't mean it's THE issue keeping carebears from PvP. Far from it in fact.

Personally I think the main issue is with carebears simply playing the game differently, measuring progression by wealth and possessions, where PvP-oriented players measure it more by their victories. And just like you said it yourself, not wanting to risk you 2B isk mission boat, that's exactly what's keeping carebears from PvP.

Carebears will never willingly jeopardize large chunks of their 'progression' (in the same way some of the more pathetic PvP-players don't want to jeopardize their KB-ratio and will whore even on teamkills).

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#77 - 2012-05-20 14:28:23 UTC
Aemonchichi wrote:
Karn Dulake wrote:
The best way to get Carebears to fight is to understand that not everyone is you.

Some people have no interest in it and whatever you dangle in front of them they wont be interested.


Unless you forced them to fight and then they will just go elsewhere



dude you have to realize that u cant force someone in a game ^^ it may be shocking for you but there is a loggoffski button

so just forget your stupid "force them" and try to think productive, destructive thinking is for idiots



I think that you may be a tard. I was saying that not everyone wants to pvp and there is nothing you can do to force them. So just let them be but they have no understand that they can still be attacked.


Would you like me to use hand puppets next time so you dont get confused and angry
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#78 - 2012-05-20 14:28:59 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
The population of RvB indicates there's actually a big demand for pvp, just not the hours of roaming/camping/grinding before it. The next time you think of "forcing" carebears to pvp, realize that you won't have to, they already want it. It's actually a matter of forcing the hours of boredom before it onto them, and it's not going to work.

They want it, eh?

So you're saying that spending time to hunt for targets is boring, but repeating the same hand motion to drop the same quantity of minerals from the cargohold to a container over and over again for hours isn't? Is that your argument?


This is what bots, not real miners do.

Try knowing your prey, if anything it will help to hunt them better.

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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#79 - 2012-05-20 14:39:36 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
The population of RvB indicates there's actually a big demand for pvp, just not the hours of roaming/camping/grinding before it. The next time you think of "forcing" carebears to pvp, realize that you won't have to, they already want it. It's actually a matter of forcing the hours of boredom before it onto them, and it's not going to work.

They want it, eh?

So you're saying that spending time to hunt for targets is boring, but repeating the same hand motion to drop the same quantity of minerals from the cargohold to a container over and over again for hours isn't? Is that your argument?


This is what bots, not real miners do.

Try knowing your prey, if anything it will help to hunt them better.

Ahh of course, the human miners must perform some sort of complex ritualistic dance in their hulks whilst waiting for their miners to cycle.

I knew there was something I was supposed to have been looking for, if only I'd taken the time to learn my prey.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#80 - 2012-05-20 14:41:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Large Collidable Object wrote:


The only problem with them is the insane amount of isk the mission running/highsec incursion fraction of them is spilling into the economy without them actually needing any isk - they don't need to replace any ships after all.


L4 missions rewards now are fine.

You can eve-search how I spent months if not years on the missions forums proving with other 2 guys how L4 missions needed to be nerfed. Since then they have been nerfed 3-4 times both as loot (multiple times) and bounties (recently).

Now what remains is simple: the fact that there's not much risk doing them.
Therefore any amount of ISK - nerfed or not - does not leave the economy.


The fun thing is that what's wrong now is not hi sec L4 missions any more but sov 0.0 content.

People don't move alts to hi sec because L4s are still godlike. Nope. They move them to hi sec because the 0.0 rewards are way too low.

Why are 0.0 rewards too low? Because in 0.0 you can grind red crosses with massively powerful ships AND in nearly absolute safety. This pushed CCP into nerfing 0.0 PvE again and again. And this means those in 0.0 who do not have the same opportunities got over-nerfed in their income as result (they call this phenomenon "horizontal cuts" here, the same identical taxes hitting everybody indiscriminately and thus penalizing the poor).

Basically 0.0 rewards need to be boosted back again but to be denied to supercaps and other mass grinding machines.


Simi Kusoni wrote:

Ahh of course, the human miners must perform some sort of complex ritualistic dance in their hulks whilst waiting for their miners to cycle.

I knew there was something I was supposed to have been looking for, if only I'd taken the time to learn my prey.


No, they do other stuff in game while the Hulk does its thing. Depending on the situations some chat for hours, others race for the most efficient corp operation (this makes mining quite active), others hunt suspicious guys with their PvP character (often their Hulk is baity and overtanked)... there are 1000 situations not just 1.

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