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AMMO, why such a disadvantage

Author
Cpt Mangrum
P.O.Box
#1 - 2012-05-19 14:48:15 UTC
There are only two races that have the ability to choose between all damage types for ammo. Gallente are restricted to Kinetic and thermal, and Amarr are restricted to EMP and thermal. Both Caldari, and Minmatar can use EMP, Kinetic, Thermal, and Explosive ammo damage types. If you fly Amarr or Gallente you do not have the option to change ammo in combat to do a different damage type to break someones tank. So you either die or run. I would like to see some changes to ammo, what do you guys think?
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#2 - 2012-05-19 14:55:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
To be fair, nothing projects damage like Scorch, or does damage at point blank like blasters. If anything, Minmatar ships should be less able to select damage types. Caldari are typically bonused just for kinetic, perhaps projectiles should be more tied to explosive? They seem the odd one out, granted their ACs are almost always in falloff, but they can still focus on e.g. an EM resist hole far too easily and often have huge effective range bonuses even before factoring in TEs, so they can more than make up for switch from Barrage.
Don't forget they're also capless too, hybrids aren't anywhere close to being so.
Hybrid ammo is rather terrible though, being as they're the active-tanking race, cargo is at a premium and AM + T2 ammo is the most you'll ever see on a blaster boat, and perhaps only 1 other type more on rails.
Then again, rails are a whole heap of fail on their own, especially mediums.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#3 - 2012-05-19 14:59:45 UTC
Would argue that it is only Amarr that has the honour of being damage type deficient as the big'ish drone bays on all Gallente gun-ships allows them to field off racial damage (ie. EM and EXP).

CCP has hinted at wanting to bring Amarr up to speed in regards to drones (supposedly the 2nd drone race yet only Caldari has less available to them), and are looking at increasing or even adding bays on some ships.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#4 - 2012-05-19 15:17:07 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Would argue that it is only Amarr that has the honour of being damage type deficient as the big'ish drone bays on all Gallente gun-ships allows them to field off racial damage (ie. EM and EXP).

CCP has hinted at wanting to bring Amarr up to speed in regards to drones (supposedly the 2nd drone race yet only Caldari has less available to them), and are looking at increasing or even adding bays on some ships.


While they're at it, maybe they can make the Amarrian Drones themselves suck less.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#5 - 2012-05-19 15:28:27 UTC
The general PvP ship doesn't have any glaring resist holes. Damage type is not as big of a deal as you are making it out to be.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

Dare Knight
Bandwagoners
#6 - 2012-05-19 16:53:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Dare Knight
Vordak Kallager wrote:
The general PvP ship doesn't have any glaring resist holes. Damage type is not as big of a deal as you are making it out to be.


^ This ^

If it were such a big deal, people wouldn't use Amarr ships for PvP. Nor would people use Hyperions as blaster boats. I can't think of hardly any cases where you wouldn't omni-tank, except if you KNOW for SURE that X fleet will only be carrying X ammo type and NOTHING else with 0% chance of them changing or using drones.

_It's very simple, really. If you see Tengus on scan, they are ratting. If you see a shitload of Tengus, the Russians are blobbing. If you see Proteuses on scan, they will be on top of you in about a second. If you see a shitload of Proteuses, the big boys are having a goodfight. _

Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-05-19 17:08:17 UTC
you know whats been bothering me latley about ammo....

since blasters got changed to 5 seconds it drives me crazy waiting 10 seconds on my missile/projectile now :(

everything for 5 seconds thanks!

oh and screw your damage type limitations, its all fine so sush and buy a golem you high sec whiney bears

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.

Dare Knight
Bandwagoners
#8 - 2012-05-19 21:15:57 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
you know whats been bothering me latley about ammo....

since blasters got changed to 5 seconds it drives me crazy waiting 10 seconds on my missile/projectile now :(

everything for 5 seconds thanks!

oh and screw your damage type limitations, its all fine so sush and buy a golem you high sec whiney bears


Muad, I swear I know you from somewhere, but I can't figure out where....

_It's very simple, really. If you see Tengus on scan, they are ratting. If you see a shitload of Tengus, the Russians are blobbing. If you see Proteuses on scan, they will be on top of you in about a second. If you see a shitload of Proteuses, the big boys are having a goodfight. _

Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-05-19 22:38:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Would argue that it is only Amarr that has the honour of being damage type deficient as the big'ish drone bays on all Gallente gun-ships allows them to field off racial damage (ie. EM and EXP).


Harb 50m3 bandwidth and bay. Brutix same.
Geddon 125m3 bandwidth and bay. Mega same.
Abaddon 75m3 bandwidth and bay, Hyperion 100m3 bandwidth and bay.

What you're complaining about only applies to the Zealot vs. the Deimos and (marginally) to the Abaddon vs. Hyperion. T1 cruisers as well, but everyone knows those need to be fixed. And I'm not so sure the Zealot vs. Deimos is even all that valid given that the Zealot is an amazing and versatile HAC while the Deimos is more of a niche.
Jayem See
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-05-19 22:53:49 UTC
Threads like this worry me a little bit.

If we remove all the different advantages and disadvantages that each race has.......well we might as well just have one race.

That would become very boring very quickly.

Aaaaaaand relax.

Cat Casidy
Percussive Diplomacy
Sedition.
#11 - 2012-05-19 23:26:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Casidy
yeah jus tto reiterrate a few of the key points

Drones- selective damage

Caldari are bonused to kinetic so you rarely see them use anything else

PvP ships are omnitanked anyways

The races that do have selective damage take 10 seconds to reload, so normaly in combat you shoot what you have loaded unless it's just glaringly shooting into a high resist

Blasters can't change damage but their raw dps is so silly it doesn't matter. Talos with selectible damage type?

uhmm did i miss anything? everything's fine

.

Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-05-20 00:31:20 UTC
been done to death.
each race's ammo has different benefits.
damage selection is fine.

There is no Bob.

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Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#13 - 2012-05-20 04:44:44 UTC
The only ships in the game that have full damage type selection with no strings attached are the Caldari missileboats that are -not- damage bonused for kinetic. A ton of their ships lose damage if they fit anything other than kinetic. Minmatar are locked into explosive as far as t2 ammo goes, and even with short range ammo they can't choose kinetic. Also, none of the projectile ammo does 'pure' damage: EMP does some explosive, for example.

Additionally, the weapon systems that are able to dictate damage types to some degree (missiles, projectiles) have prohibitively long reload times of 10s. On the other hand, Amarr ships switch out instantly, which is why Scorch is so good. There's no opportunity cost - if the enemy closes within scorch range, you instaswap to IN MF or Conflag. Hybrids don't switch out instantly, but the 5s timer is low enough that you can afford to switch mid-fight.

Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#14 - 2012-05-20 06:17:50 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
The only ships in the game that have full damage type selection with no strings attached are the Caldari missileboats that are -not- damage bonused for kinetic. A ton of their ships lose damage if they fit anything other than kinetic. Minmatar are locked into explosive as far as t2 ammo goes, and even with short range ammo they can't choose kinetic. Also, none of the projectile ammo does 'pure' damage: EMP does some explosive, for example.

Additionally, the weapon systems that are able to dictate damage types to some degree (missiles, projectiles) have prohibitively long reload times of 10s. On the other hand, Amarr ships switch out instantly, which is why Scorch is so good. There's no opportunity cost - if the enemy closes within scorch range, you instaswap to IN MF or Conflag. Hybrids don't switch out instantly, but the 5s timer is low enough that you can afford to switch mid-fight.



Well said.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-05-20 09:13:24 UTC
2008 called and opines as follows:

lasers are already significantly stronger than the other weapon systems - this is balanced by the fixed damage types, the high fitting requirements and the absence of turret damage bonuses from amarr hulls. Removing any of these much needed drawbacks would be ridiculous.


however, since then both projectiles and hybrids got buffed significantly - so maybe lasers are in for another round of "balancing".

.

Tlat Ij
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-05-20 10:40:21 UTC
Cpt Mangrum wrote:
There are only two races that have the ability to choose between all damage types for ammo. Gallente are restricted to Kinetic and thermal, and Amarr are restricted to EMP and thermal. Both Caldari, and Minmatar can use EMP, Kinetic, Thermal, and Explosive ammo damage types. If you fly Amarr or Gallente you do not have the option to change ammo in combat to do a different damage type to break someones tank. So you either die or run. I would like to see some changes to ammo, what do you guys think?

I would definitely like explo/kin lasers, thanks.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#17 - 2012-05-20 15:23:20 UTC
Quote:
PvP ships are omnitanked anyways


Show me a standard wolf fit that won't take far more damage from EXP or Kin than EM. Show me an Ishtar fit that won't take far more damage from EM or EXP than KIN.


Resists are never equal. Most of the time, differences between resistances are very noticeable, even if holes are filled. Proper exploitation of damage types is extremely useful in a small gang/solo situation.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#18 - 2012-05-21 03:26:57 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
On the other hand, Amarr ships switch out instantly, which is why Scorch is so good. There's no opportunity cost - if the enemy closes within scorch range, you instaswap to IN MF or Conflag. Hybrids don't switch out instantly, but the 5s timer is low enough that you can afford to switch mid-fight.


1. 'Instant' isn't fast enough. You must right-click the group, stop firing, select the new crystal in the right-click menu (which won't appear while the gun is finishing a cycle, so I hope you pre-right-clicked as instructed), and then begin firing again. So it's a 3sec+why-won't-this-module-end-its-cycle-already-lag reload. Much longer if you've more than one group, as you can't pre-right-click all of them.

2. Ammo-switching only lets you A) continue to do damage as they move away from you, or B) do more damage as they move towards you. That's it, that and possibly switching out from tracking-nerfed ammo, or to less cap-sucking ammo. Do you know what autocannon users have to do in order to A) continue to do damage as range increases, and B) do greater damage as range decreases? That's right -- ******* nothing. Lasers' 3sec 'instant' ammo switching is just a low-resolution simulation of autocannons' actually instantaneous adaptation to range in falloff.

Actual laser advantages include: 1. never losing DPS due to reloading, 2. the damage reduction in 'simulated falloff' is less punishing than actual falloff.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#19 - 2012-05-21 12:20:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Rodj Blake
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Would argue that it is only Amarr that has the honour of being damage type deficient as the big'ish drone bays on all Gallente gun-ships allows them to field off racial damage (ie. EM and EXP).


Harb 50m3 bandwidth and bay. Brutix same.
Geddon 125m3 bandwidth and bay. Mega same.
Abaddon 75m3 bandwidth and bay, Hyperion 100m3 bandwidth and bay.

What you're complaining about only applies to the Zealot vs. the Deimos and (marginally) to the Abaddon vs. Hyperion. T1 cruisers as well, but everyone knows those need to be fixed. And I'm not so sure the Zealot vs. Deimos is even all that valid given that the Zealot is an amazing and versatile HAC while the Deimos is more of a niche.


The correct ship to compare the Megathron with would be the Apocalypse, not the Armageddon. The drone bay on the Apocalypse is only 75m3.

And you forgot to compare the Thorax with the Maller...

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#20 - 2012-05-21 13:56:43 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
PvP ships are omnitanked anyways


Show me a standard wolf fit that won't take far more damage from EXP or Kin than EM. Show me an Ishtar fit that won't take far more damage from EM or EXP than KIN.


Resists are never equal. Most of the time, differences between resistances are very noticeable, even if holes are filled. Proper exploitation of damage types is extremely useful in a small gang/solo situation.


T2 and T3 ships do have the more pronounced resist profile, true. So there can be situations where you, in Amarr or Gallente ship, face a ship that has high natural resist against your only damage type(s), but that can switch ammo to make more applied damage against your weakest resist.

But against T1 ships, shield or armor if the resist hole is filled like it should, hybrid ammo has always the best or second best damage type to shoot. Lasers don't have it as good, but ~Scorch~ so it doesn't really matter anyway.

.

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