These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Greed is not good

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Signal11th
#21 - 2011-09-16 15:29:53 UTC
Mendolus wrote:
Signal11th wrote:

You could have just said " I don't agree" but no you moan about people using the same "tired and naive arguments" but then proceed to spout the usual pro-CCP crap that everyone else does. Good Work Fella I for one salute your attempt.

In counter to your "wider demographic" (loving the words) argument if everyone can have who would want it? I don't want it now ,let alone if it was 10 times cheaper. It's tat, like the stuff you win at a fair, worth nothing and about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

All that junk in the NEX store is to pander to the egomaniacs, children,mentally deranged idiots that think that by somehow buying this stuff they will be seen as the elite, upper echelons of a non existant group of players. These people are sheep blindly led into conveyor belt of completely useless and gawdy items but because they have one it massages their need to feel more supreme either by allowing them to be part of a a supposed "select" group which look down upon the masses or then even worse "I bought this so I can show how lame it is brigade".

Just because something is the norm doesn't mean it's right or correct, just take a look back in history for any one of a thousand things.


Your personal opinions do not change reality for anyone but you.

Morality and ethics are two very distinct concepts, and you cannot attribute moral profundity to an entertainment product, only to necessities.

Capitalizing on people's pain and suffering by hiking prices on gas in a disaster zone, is immoral.
Capitalizing on people's desire for entertainment and charging them whatever price you want, is not.
Unethical, maybe in some countries, but immoral, hardly.


Edit: Who said I am pro CCP? I am not. I pay for access to an entertainment product; if I am at any point unhappy with that product, I will simply stop paying for it. I need not harbor ill will towards any one group or company to base my personal entertainment experiences off of, as they did not design this game nor support it solely for me or those like me.

Now, whether they flub things for a vast majority of subscribers is another matter, and yet to be seen. This is where my argument comes in, if enough people are willing to pay for vanity items, why are you crying foul that a commercial enterprise attempts to sell them said vanity items?

Are you... daft? P



No, my point was, you called people who complained about it as naive then basically after all your rhetoric bascially finished saying if you don't like it please don't complain and leave quietly because that's just the way it is. My counter argument was to say the world is the way it is basically because of people like yourself whom are happy with the staus quo.

People will always moan and groan about things and then after a period of time will just carry on as normal, this is what CCP are counting on. Personally I don't care about NEX one way or the other but I will always have a problem with people who say stop complaining as this is the way it is.

Alot of people pay alot of money to play this game and if they want to complain I say let them even if their arguments are flawed or even wrong.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
AFKCloaked AltSpy
Doomheim
#22 - 2011-09-16 15:35:16 UTC
"Greed can be a powerful ally"
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#23 - 2011-09-16 15:39:12 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Wait a minute...
So not every at CCP is a viking?

Not interested anymore, cancelling sub.

Blink



Nope, not everyone at CCP is a viking. Hilmar and the Board of Directors, for example, who will be competing with Mittani and the rest of the CSM this winter in an 3pic showdown for the fate of the New Eden, as well as the affection of attractive scandinavian blondes.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#24 - 2011-09-16 15:51:48 UTC
Quote:
They thought the could raise their prices 60% like how CCP thought we'd have no issue with a MT store injected into out MT free game.


So the basis of your post is to compare Netflix (who is raising their subscription fee) to CCP (who is NOT raising their subscription fee, but instead is offering OPTIONAL vanity items for sale IF YOU ARE INTERESTED).

You do understand the difference I hope.

Netflix: If you want to continue using their service, you pay more.

CCP: If you want to continue using their service, you do NOT have to pay more. You need only deal with the fact that there are other purely vanity items available for purchase by those that are interested in them.

It really doesn't matter what your opinion is of the people who choose to purchase those items, your money out of pocket or access to EVE is not affected at all.

I think we are done here.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
#25 - 2011-09-16 15:51:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Mendolus
Signal11th wrote:

No, my point was, you called people who complained about it as naive then basically after all your rhetoric bascially finished saying if you don't like it please don't complain and leave quietly because that's just the way it is. My counter argument was to say the world is the way it is basically because of people like yourself whom are happy with the staus quo.

People will always moan and groan about things and then after a period of time will just carry on as normal, this is what CCP are counting on. Personally I don't care about NEX one way or the other but I will always have a problem with people who say stop complaining as this is the way it is.

Alot of people pay alot of money to play this game and if they want to complain I say let them even if their arguments are flawed or even wrong.



I pick my fights very carefully, the NEX store will not be one unless they release actual non-vanity items to the game.
I did protest Dominion, but it was largely out of spite because I could not really blame CCP for the soul crushing lag more than I could merely lament how depressingly long it took them to fix it or even admit to it (or to the actual scale of the problem, that is).

Pick your fights wisely Signal! Some things are worth fighting over, others are not.

Vanity items, are not worth fighting over, every game has them anymore, it is only a matter of time.
Non-vanity however... greatly disappoints me, but I can no better stop that tide than I could could stop time.

Unfortunately for those like us... yes, you and me, even if we quit playing any and all video games with non-vanity items, we will simply be relegated to the status of dinosaurs or relics of the past, and those who are more than willing to pay for non-vanity items will simply replace us.

You realize this I hope, whether you like it or not.

If CCP ever releases true non-vanity items, I will be gone like the wind, but I have no doubt that ten others will replace me, if not in this game, then in others like it, and by others, I mean MMOs themselves.

...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie.
Signal11th
#26 - 2011-09-16 16:00:51 UTC
Mendolus wrote:
Signal11th wrote:

No, my point was, you called people who complained about it as naive then basically after all your rhetoric bascially finished saying if you don't like it please don't complain and leave quietly because that's just the way it is. My counter argument was to say the world is the way it is basically because of people like yourself whom are happy with the staus quo.

People will always moan and groan about things and then after a period of time will just carry on as normal, this is what CCP are counting on. Personally I don't care about NEX one way or the other but I will always have a problem with people who say stop complaining as this is the way it is.

Alot of people pay alot of money to play this game and if they want to complain I say let them even if their arguments are flawed or even wrong.



I pick my fights very carefully, the NEX store will not be one unless they release actual non-vanity items to the game.
I did protest Dominion, but it was largely out of spite because I could not really blame CCP for the soul crushing lag more than I could merely lament how depressingly long it took them to fix it or even admit to it (or to the actual scale of the problem, that is).

Pick your fights wisely Signal! Some things are worth fighting over, others are not.

Vanity items, are not worth fighting over, every game has them anymore, it is only a matter of time.
Non-vanity however... greatly disappoints me, but I can no better stop that tide than I could could stop time.

Unfortunately for those like us... yes, you and me, even if we quit playing any and all video games with non-vanity items, we will simply be relegated to the status of dinosaurs or relics of the past, and those who are more than willing to pay for non-vanity items will simply replace us.

You realize this I hope, whether you like it or not.

If CCP ever releases true non-vanity items, I will be gone like the wind, but I have no doubt that ten others will replace me, if not in this game, then in others like it, and by others, I mean MMOs themselves.


Yep totally agree with you there!

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Richard Aiel
The Merchants of War
#27 - 2011-09-16 16:04:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Aiel
Hey look, a red bar that says "Mendolus View post"

Im assuming the champion apologist of the MT came to flame me.

have fun with that, man, I cant see it any more. Best option ever for the forums CCP

Though I do love the attitude of lets gloss over the idea they got greedy, raised the price 60% an are losing a million customers
but lets talk stock stuff instead

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/buddahcjcc/SOA-3-2.jpg
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
#28 - 2011-09-16 16:06:25 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
Yep totally agree with you there!


Hopefully folks like us who are more practical about the whole thing, will be the ones that CCP is afraid of losing... I am uncertain whether or not EVE is still fresh enough to attract the non-vanity crowd in such a way as to entice the bean counters in the marketing department or not.

I believe we are safe from it, so long as the subscriptions remain mostly level over time, which is also a source of great irony in that, the more people that quit to protest the notion of non-vanity in EVE, are actually promoting it indirectly, lol... because what else is CCP going to do if the money starts drying up?

They will go F2P of course...

Irony is ironic!

Thus I keep my subscriptions going until the day non-vanity items are released. Since I technically have nothing to actually protest until the day they are, if and when they ever are in EVE Online.


...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie.
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
#29 - 2011-09-16 16:08:01 UTC
Richard Aiel wrote:
Hey look, a red bar that says "Mendolus View post"

Im assuming the champion apologist of the MT came to flame me.

have fun with that, man, I cant see it any more. Best option ever for the forums CCP


Yes, I am the ultimate MT apologist, so much so that I will drop my five subs the moment non-vanity items are made a mainstay in EVE Online!

You got me! I have been turd burgled! Pirate

...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie.
Richard Aiel
The Merchants of War
#30 - 2011-09-16 16:08:15 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
Mendolus wrote:
I too am a moral crusader! YARR! Pirate

Oh wai... it's a game! Big smile

Speak with your subscription not with your keyboard, friend.
As a paying subscriber, I tire of you and your ilk mucking up the forums with the same tired and naive arguments.

The vast majority of games in the market now contain some kind of non-vanity products, promotions, specials, or deals.
Whether I like that fact or not is inconsequential, enough people evidently do or it would not be trending in the gaming industry like it is. You are vastly outnumbered by people easily gulled into purchasing non-vanity products just to have something the guy next to them does not merely because he is unwilling to use or does not actually have the disposable income to do so. You know the greater irony here is that the NEX pricing actually prevents masses of these same people from taking full advantage of it, which I find most interesting to be honest. If CCP wanted to milk it as much as possible, they would have made NEX items more readily accessible to a wider demographic than they did. Interesting.

I am unfortunately in the position of either accepting the fact that in today's industry more people than not are willing to take part in these ventures or I simply have to stop playing.

Which do you think I am going to choose?

Yes, yes, EVE is a beacon of light in a sea of inequity! A champion of player rights in opposition to all the evil nefarious games out there trying to make money off us and CCP is trying to take that away from us! ...only it is not, and never has been.

Welcome to the real world.



You could have just said " I don't agree" but no you moan about people using the same "tired and naive arguments" but then proceed to spout the usual pro-CCP crap that everyone else does. Good Work Fella I for one salute your attempt.

In counter to your "wider demographic" (loving the words) argument if everyone can have who would want it? I don't want it now ,let alone if it was 10 times cheaper. It's tat, like the stuff you win at a fair, worth nothing and about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

All that junk in the NEX store is to pander to the egomaniacs, children,mentally deranged idiots that think that by somehow buying this stuff they will be seen as the elite, upper echelons of a non existant group of players. These people are sheep blindly led into conveyor belt of completely useless and gawdy items but because they have one it massages their need to feel more supreme either by allowing them to be part of a a supposed "select" group which look down upon the masses or then even worse "I bought this so I can show how lame it is brigade".

Just because something is the norm doesn't mean it's right or correct, just take a look back in history for any one of a thousand things.
I like EVE I'm probably addicted to it in some way and at the moment as the NEX store is selling junk it doesn't bother me, that may or may not change in the future.

It's only the "real world" because sheep like you let it be.


Theres a reason I have him on block

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/buddahcjcc/SOA-3-2.jpg
Psychophantic
#31 - 2011-09-16 16:09:07 UTC
Richard Aiel wrote:
Hey look, a red bar that says "Mendolus View post"

Im assuming the champion apologist of the MT came to flame me.

have fun with that, man, I cant see it any more. Best option ever for the forums CCP

Though I do love the attitude of lets gloss over the idea they got greedy, raised the price 60% an are losing a million customers
but lets talk stock stuff instead


You need help.
Satav
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2011-09-16 16:11:54 UTC
+1

also other things that happen when people get greedy.

http://eatinghealthyomnoms.blogspot.com/2011/04/fat-people-who-i-hate-and-dont-want-to.html

everyone below me plz post a pic best describing ccp's greed.

_________________________________________________

Luna *** rubet, est sanguis effusus.
Richard Aiel
The Merchants of War
#33 - 2011-09-16 16:14:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Aiel
Psychophantic wrote:
Richard Aiel wrote:
Hey look, a red bar that says "Mendolus View post"

Im assuming the champion apologist of the MT came to flame me.

have fun with that, man, I cant see it any more. Best option ever for the forums CCP

Though I do love the attitude of lets gloss over the idea they got greedy, raised the price 60% an are losing a million customers
but lets talk stock stuff instead


You need help.


no more than everyone else here Im afraid.

If I dont want to see his rants on how MT is inevitable and its great (but ill be out like a flash if it gets non vanity....) and how we should stfu and deal with it, I like having the option to turn off his ranting. I far prefer seeing a little red bar that says "mendolus View post" or "Ranger 1 view post" than see the ramblings of ppl who refuse to be moved in their positions in the argument. Its why politics/religion/etc is really bad to argue cause you will NEVER get the person youre arguing with to conceed a point

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/buddahcjcc/SOA-3-2.jpg
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#34 - 2011-09-16 16:20:24 UTC
Mendolus wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
Yep totally agree with you there!


Hopefully folks like us who are more practical about the whole thing, will be the ones that CCP is afraid of losing... I am uncertain whether or not EVE is still fresh enough to attract the non-vanity crowd in such a way as to entice the bean counters in the marketing department or not.

I believe we are safe from it, so long as the subscriptions remain mostly level over time, which is also a source of great irony in that, the more people that quit to protest the notion of non-vanity in EVE, are actually promoting it indirectly, lol... because what else is CCP going to do if the money starts drying up?

They will go F2P of course...

Irony is ironic!

Thus I keep my subscriptions going until the day non-vanity items are released. Since I technically have nothing to actually protest until the day they are, if and when they ever are in EVE Online.




I want to ask you a very friendly question on this point. Smile

Do you see a difference between selling (theoretically) non-vanity items in the NeX and turning the game into Pay-to-Win.

I ask because of the existence of the secondary player market.

If non-vanity items are sold for cash via the NeX (items that give an advantage in game) and then freely resold on the open player driven market for ISK (and thus available to everyone with no cash transaction required), is that really Pay-to-Win in your opinion?

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
#35 - 2011-09-16 16:22:23 UTC
Richard: If you do not fight the man, you are a dirty sympathizer!
Mendolus: No, but there are more sympathizers than rebels or we would not even have this problem.
Richard: Your senses cannot repel moral indignation of this magnitude!
Mendolus: ...

...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2011-09-16 16:24:59 UTC
I'm not familiar with all of Netflix's offering but lets do a bit of comparison with what I do know of it.

***WARNING MATH IS USED, VARIABLE GRAVITATIONAL FIELDS MAY BE PRESENT. ***

Assuming 10mil subscribers at 9.95/month that's 99.50mil/month. Check!

Assuming 1mil leave that's 9mil subscribers at 15.92/month for a total of 143mil/month. Greed is good so long as it's calculated. Effectively Netflix reduces it's operating costs and increases revenue. Their potential earnings are actually more than my fictional calculation when you add their savings to their revenue. It's win win for Netflix.

Don't ban me, bro!
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#37 - 2011-09-16 16:25:15 UTC
I see Richard is still proud of his mastery of the block button. It's the net equivalent of going "lalalalalala" when you don't want to hear painful truths.

It somewhat subverts the point of blocking someone when all of your posts are referring to the fact that you have them blocked. Lol

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
#38 - 2011-09-16 16:29:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mendolus
Ranger 1 wrote:
I want to ask you a very friendly question on this point. Smile

Do you see a difference between selling (theoretically) non-vanity items in the NeX and turning the game into Pay-to-Win.

I ask because of the existence of the secondary player market.

If non-vanity items are sold for cash via the NeX (items that give an advantage in game) and then freely resold on the open player driven market for ISK (and thus available to everyone with no cash transaction required), is that really Pay-to-Win in your opinion?


You raise a very good point, and I am not entirely certain on this yet to be honest.

I believe it is a matter of scale, as in... even if they released non-vanity items, you need live bodies to take advantage of them.
i.e. you can buy a billion rounds of gold ammo with real money, but if you only have a hundred pilots to use those rounds, anyone with two hundred pilots using normal ammo will stomp you, in theory.

It is a very very good question, one which I really have no answer for.

I think I might have to see it in action to answer it, which is kind of unfortunate really, lol...

If gold ammo were purchased by affluent people in real life and then resold ingame for a typical markup of say, 5-10% more ingame than it cost in PLEX exchange rates, then I would say that no one ingame would really technically have an excuse to claim that people could pay to win against them, when the same goods are available for prices that may very nearly parallel existing ammo prices, only at a small markup.

The main thing I believe to be of more concern, is whether the gold ammo would have an associated item exchange required, so it automatically gets associated with the mineral index right out of the starting gates, i.e. the only real difference between instead of using Loyalty Points to acquire faction ammo, people would pay a money premium to acquire gold ammo, to then resell on the player market for a markup, just like faction ammo.

I do not know, you ask too good of questions! Lol

Edit: I think I would still be against it as a matter of principle however... at least in MMOs. I don't mind them releasing DLC for single player games because I know they couldn't design the game to require that DLC to complete, but in MMOs it's a little more slippery in my opinion. Slippery enough that I am wary to test the slope for fear of falling down it myself, ya know?

...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie.
Richard Aiel
The Merchants of War
#39 - 2011-09-16 16:44:49 UTC
Quote:
It somewhat subverts the point of blocking someone when all of your posts are referring to the fact that you have them blocked. Lol


yeah i gave in... I find it makes me at least feel better to let those Ive blocked know theyre blocked so they dont go on grandiose tirades and rants for my benefit and think its making me feel bad.

an as far as the lalala thing goes you both seem to do that quite fine yourselves. even without the block button

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/buddahcjcc/SOA-3-2.jpg
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
#40 - 2011-09-16 16:49:20 UTC
Richard Aiel wrote:
Quote:
It somewhat subverts the point of blocking someone when all of your posts are referring to the fact that you have them blocked. Lol


yeah i gave in... I find it makes me at least feel better to let those Ive blocked know theyre blocked so they dont go on grandiose tirades and rants for my benefit and think its making me feel bad.

an as far as the lalala thing goes you both seem to do that quite fine yourselves. even without the block button


Why are you not capable of having discussions with people that disagree with your viewpoints? Am I being unreasonable in my discussions or insulting you for the sake of insulting you?

I may poke fun at your fairly inflammatory persona (a persona on these forums at least) but I am responding to your points with what I believe are well thought out and reasonable disagreements, am I not?

Let's try to be civil no, you bring up a point in this thread, what fun or use is there to bring it up if there is no one to disagree with you? The world would get awfully boring if you never faced adversity, just like the game would if you were never challenged.

Prove your point to us if you will, we are in fact, listening.

...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie.