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EVE Alliance Tournament Discussion

 
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Spying on the test server

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Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
Evasive Maneuvering.
#1 - 2012-05-17 17:49:10 UTC
What is CCPs opinion on alliances actively interfering with the training of other alliances on the test server? We're having Hydra Reloaded actively locate and scan the wormholes we're trying to run practices in.
sevyn nine
Cutting Edge Incorporated
#2 - 2012-05-17 20:18:53 UTC
CCP probably won't do anything, and even if they do, Hydra can just start scanning with a neutral alt.

And what is this "practice" thing you speak of? Can we practice with you?
Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
Evasive Maneuvering.
#3 - 2012-05-17 20:22:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Faffywaffy
They're already doing it with a neutral alt. One option would be to ban from the test server any characters who interfere with other people's activities.

I don't know, maybe CCP is more serious about having a quality tournament this year. I'm pretty skeptical, but who knows...
Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#4 - 2012-05-18 05:35:39 UTC
Spying and all has been done since AT1. So why start bitching about it now?

If CCP didn't interfere sofar then why would they now?
Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
Evasive Maneuvering.
#5 - 2012-05-18 11:22:26 UTC
They didn't interfere with thrown matches and manipulation so far either, but they say they will now. I'm not expecting anything, but maybe...
Raivi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-05-18 11:38:40 UTC
This is quite different from thrown matches. If they actually interfere with your testing (with more than attempts at passive observation) then they should get banned but I have a hard time believing that passive observation should be disallowed.
Humphrey Goff
The Brown Hole
#7 - 2012-05-18 12:53:15 UTC
Raivi wrote:
This is quite different from thrown matches. If they actually interfere with your testing (with more than attempts at passive observation) then they should get banned but I have a hard time believing that passive observation should be disallowed.


Is that based on what would be possible to enforce or are you rating the different kinds of metagaming?
Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#8 - 2012-05-18 13:52:02 UTC
Metagaming is part of EVE.

It's not asif your own corporation / alliance has never metagamed before.

Instead of crying you could also use it to your advantage.
Raivi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-05-18 14:15:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Raivi
Humphrey Goff wrote:
Raivi wrote:
This is quite different from thrown matches. If they actually interfere with your testing (with more than attempts at passive observation) then they should get banned but I have a hard time believing that passive observation should be disallowed.


Is that based on what would be possible to enforce or are you rating the different kinds of metagaming?


My interpretation of the rules is that metagaming is fine but B teams lead to fewer groups getting into the limited space and to boring thrown matches so they're out.

I'm not official in any way though so if CCP's view is different they can let us know.

"Metagaming" is such a nebulous term that it approaches uselessness anyways. Watching the previous matches to look for patterns is the most effective use of metagaming in the history of the tournament but nobody is talking about putting the tournament on a one month tape delay to prevent that.

:Edit: I'll also note that people have petitioned my spying (covops observation, never interfering) in past years and received rulings that it was allowed. Until we hear otherwise from CCP we can probably assume the same rules apply. If anyone shows up on grid with a mach and starts shooting people (I'm looking at you Hydra :P) then go ahead and get the GMs involved.
Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
Evasive Maneuvering.
#10 - 2012-05-18 14:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Faffywaffy
This kind of metagaming leads to fewer unique/unusual/interesting setups, and to more good teams dropping out early because Hydra supplied their (weaker) opponents with the setup and the counter-setup.

Watching previous matches doesn't do that. Also, watching previous matches is something all teams can and should do. Spying (for the alliance tournament, not in general), on the other hand, is an underhanded tactic that I refuse to engage in. Yes, laugh at my e-honor and all that. The tournament is supposed to be a measurement of skill, at least somewhat independent of the usual in-game shenanigans.

Again, though, I'm not that worried, but I would like to know CCP's stance on it.
Raivi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-05-18 14:43:54 UTC
But what if spying in general overlaps with the tournament? I mean I put my alt HaartSp into Hydra so I could set up Vindicator hotdrops but if they just hand me all their tournament secrets what am I to do?
Raivi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-05-18 14:58:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Raivi
I should probably clarify my last post....


I'm talking about hotdrops against Vindicators, not hotdrops using Vindicators. However those are cool too.
Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
Evasive Maneuvering.
#13 - 2012-05-18 15:04:14 UTC
If you can't trust your own pilots then there's nothing anyone can do to help you.
Bladen Kerst
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-05-19 01:39:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Bladen Kerst
EvE is not chess. Instead of two players playing by the same rules you have 20000, each one with their own personal set of rules, most of them part of a bigger organized group . Which means EvE is a total mess, it can never be fair by definition, pretty much like life itself. The closest you can get it to being fair if we all adopt the ultimate universal rule: you do whatver you think is necessary as long as you are ready to accept the consequences of your actions.
Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
Evasive Maneuvering.
#15 - 2012-05-19 11:27:23 UTC
The alliance tournament is not EVE.
Fish Brain
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#16 - 2012-05-20 11:42:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Fish Brain
Faffywaffy wrote:
This kind of metagaming leads to fewer unique/unusual/interesting setups, and to more good teams dropping out early because Hydra supplied their (weaker) opponents with the setup and the counter-setup.


To be fair, you did bring the exact PL Legion team 3 times in a row last year. Also the "good teams" that dropped early were all your fault (-A and, Raiden in the group stage, PL in the 1st round of the finals).

CO2 didn't make it through because they got out-metagamed.

VOLTRON lost to RAZOR late in the quater-finals because a certain kite Drake with all the links decided to burn towards pulse Absos.

So that just leaves out R0nin who didn't go through after losing 2 of their matches in the group stages.


I don't see which weaker alliance HYDRA supplied setups/counter-setups to last year, because facts say that everyone that made it to the semis, got there on their own merits. One even might think that you coming up vs a Minnie rush team in the semis after fielding the same (copied) setup all day might have to do more with common sense rather than spying. Anyway, to me you just come up a little bit hypocritical with that statement I quoted.

Everyone that participates in the AT has to deal with spies, be it Cov Ops observers, inhouse spies that take forum dumps etc. and deal with it as best as they can. Look at PL, they had all their AT setups posted to the public, came up with something that wasn't leaked and you of all teams beat them. With their own setup.

I say keep calm and carry on Faffy. I'm sure you'll do fine this tournament.
Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
Evasive Maneuvering.
#17 - 2012-05-20 21:17:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Faffywaffy
Fish Brain wrote:
Everyone that participates in the AT has to deal with spies

You're taking that as a fact of life, whereas I think the effects of this kind of metagaming can be decreased, even with very little effort on CCP's part.


Fish Brain wrote:
Look at PL, they had all their AT setups posted to the public, came up with something that wasn't leaked and you of all teams beat them. With their own setup.

I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that's a good thing?? I would rather PL (and everyone else) bring their best setups than be forced to bring inferior ones because all the good ones have been leaked.


Fish Brain wrote:
I say keep calm and carry on Faffy. I'm sure you'll do fine this tournament.

I am, and I plan to.
Lazarus Telraven
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2012-05-22 21:22:05 UTC
I have to agree with Raivi here in that if the guy watching you isnt interfering with you in anyway then he isnt really doing anyhting wrong. In fact i know the Goon practice has been spied on and we dont really care because so far the spy has probally seen 30+ different ship setups so they have no clue what we will actually field.

Was the neutral alt in a covops or a T1 Frigate? The reason i ask is because maybe they decloaked to be sure that you saw them and would then not get practice done etc.

There are other ways to hide your practice that would take a little more/less effort depending on how you classify it, like practicing in the deepest part of drone regions that is 30-40+ jumps from highsec practice there for a day and then for the next practice switch to a different system on the opposite side of eve.

Or you just dont care and practice even though you know you are being spied on and test setups you know you arent going to use just to confuse the spy.

The no B team rule is meant to improve the tournament but the metagame is a large part of EVE and I personally do not see it going away.
Okinata
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-05-25 07:08:10 UTC
What do you want, a private server to play on? Information about the account owners to confirm they have a toon in Hydra? Hydra thrown out of AT X?

If they are not shooting you (and only because, as I understand it, you can only ffa pvp in designated areas on sisi) then grow a pair and stop sounding like a whiny care bear.
Zleon Leigh
#20 - 2012-05-26 02:12:04 UTC
Okinata wrote:


If they are not shooting you (and only because, as I understand it, you can only ffa pvp in designated areas on sisi) then grow a pair and stop sounding like a whiny care bear.


You can petition non-consensual pvp right? So why even use a covert - spy, get killed, petition, get player kicked off Sisi, win.

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