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T2 torp let the rage Start.

Author
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#21 - 2012-05-15 18:05:06 UTC
even if torps had twice as much firepower, that is 100% useless if they cannot reach the target, exactly the very same problem with blasters and hence why they got buffed, a ship with 1200 DPS is a piece of **** if it can only deal damage at 20 kms and its targets are flying at 20.1 kms. (which is a way common scenario)
stoicfaux
#22 - 2012-05-15 18:16:24 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
even if torps had twice as much firepower, that is 100% useless if they cannot reach the target, exactly the very same problem with blasters and hence why they got buffed, a ship with 1200 DPS is a piece of **** if it can only deal damage at 20 kms and its targets are flying at 20.1 kms. (which is a way common scenario)

By that logic, HAMs are also useless. You should use cruise missiles instead:

HAM
standard - 16.7 raw dps
faction - 19.2
javelin - 15.0
t2 rage - 21.3

Cruise:
standard - 16.7 - raw dps
faction - 19.2
precision - 14.4
fury - 21.3


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#23 - 2012-05-15 18:29:57 UTC
which in the end just proves my point, hams tend to suck actually, that is, aside from being used on ships with insane range bonuses, like the cerb, tengu or alike, their damage is rather low actually, and the only reason they get their damage applied at least is because they are used on smaller ships that can actually move in close .
Alara IonStorm
#24 - 2012-05-15 18:34:44 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:

Pffffffff! Way to slant the numbers!

Torpedoes buck the curve by trading range for raw DPS.

And no one really uses either in PvP.

Not counting Bombers which have massive Torp bonuses.
stoicfaux wrote:

By that logic, HAMs are also useless. You should use cruise missiles instead:

I think we have proven that neither is the correct answer to this equation.
Lipbite
Express Hauler
#25 - 2012-05-15 18:34:55 UTC
Trained t2 torpedoes year ago, used them for a month, switched back to "pre-balanced" (crappy?) blasters. Wasted SP.

Could be nice to see general missiles improvements (2-3x faster travel time, 1.2-2x lesser explosion radius - not only torpedoes.
stoicfaux
#26 - 2012-05-15 18:42:42 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I think we have proven that neither is the correct answer to this equation.

Understatement. I'm looking at a spreadsheet comparing the various missile attributes. It's... odd. Then there are the various ship bonuses to consider, as well as the general HP, sig size, and speed of the ship classes you're shooting at.

Might be time for a complete overhaul of missiles.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#27 - 2012-05-15 18:55:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
stoicfaux wrote:
nat longshot wrote:

in testing a t2 launcher fit fleet typhoon with TP fireing on a Fleet Tempest just sitting there the t2s do about 25% to 30% less dmg then the faction torps. WTH ya that right 25% to 30% less dmg then faction though to use the t2 take more time to learn.


Fleet Tempest sig: 340m
TP: 30% increase to sig
T2 Rage Explosion Radius: 650m.

(340 * 1.3) / 650 = 68.0% max damage.

CN Torp: with 450m Explosion Radius
(340 * 1.3) / 450 = 98.2% max damage

Use more than one TP and/or a ship with a TP bonus. Otherwise, leave the Rage torps at home unless you're shooting at structures.

Eve missile damage formulas: http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=901280

I’m of the opinion that, the formula in the link should only be based on the second set of functions.
I.e. the missile parameters (explosion velocity divided by explosion radius) which are a constant, multiplied by the target Sig/velocity term. In which case, as a target's velocity ---> 0, it’s always going to become a big number, such that the overall damage multiplier gets capped at 1…

…i.e. regardless of how small you are, if you are stupid enough to stop completely, you 'splode… which would make sense if you think about the effect of taking a big missile right on the chin, but hey…

Before someone jumps in and talks about explosion radius vs. ship size - think, in simple geometry terms, about just how much of the explosive force would be directed during a full contact (i.e. stationary target) hit.

(50% of the explosion, assuming it's just a dumb high explosive warhead with no directionality/shaped charge)

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
#28 - 2012-05-15 19:12:14 UTC
The problem is that Torpedoes have the crutch of needing to be balanced not just against other missiles, but for use by stealth bombers. Any boost to them for use by battleships would overpower the SBs. So they suck for BSs.

SBs should never have been designed to use an existing missile type. This kind of interconnected dependency is a huge no-no in game-balance design, as it makes balancing impossible without jumping through ever-more complex hoops.
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
#29 - 2012-05-15 19:13:13 UTC
Also, mandatory:

"Give me my black T2 Khanid Torpedo Battleship!!!"
stoicfaux
#30 - 2012-05-15 19:29:41 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:
I’m of the opinion that, the formula in the link should only be based on the second set of functions.
I.e. the missile parameters (explosion velocity divided by explosion radius) which are a constant, multiplied by the target Sig/velocity term. In which case, as a target's velocity ---> 0, it’s always going to become a big number, such that the overall damage multiplier gets capped at 1…

From what I've seen, the second formula is already the main limiter of missile damage. The first formula is just there to make sure that large missiles don't do full damage against webbed/stationary frigates. Meaning, what you're asking for is already in place in practice.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#31 - 2012-05-15 22:28:03 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
I’m of the opinion that, the formula in the link should only be based on the second set of functions.
I.e. the missile parameters (explosion velocity divided by explosion radius) which are a constant, multiplied by the target Sig/velocity term. In which case, as a target's velocity ---> 0, it’s always going to become a big number, such that the overall damage multiplier gets capped at 1…

From what I've seen, the second formula is already the main limiter of missile damage. The first formula is just there to make sure that large missiles don't do full damage against webbed/stationary frigates. Meaning, what you're asking for is already in place in practice.

Well that is where I was coming from - I don't see the problem of a large missile doing full damage to a stationary target, the Sig/velocity term amply compensates for moving targets and if the first formula were removed it would be one less thing for the server to check.

Just an opinion - I'm hardly what would be considered a 'missile fiend' , perhaps more of a 'recreational user' :]

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

Torneach
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-05-15 22:42:32 UTC
Esan Vartesa wrote:
Also, mandatory:

"Give me my black T2 Khanid Torpedo Battleship!!!"


Amen, brother!

I would love to see a black-hulled Abaddon.

Now, all we need is a rework of torpedoes and we'll be set with a ship that looks awesome and is useful.
nat longshot
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-05-16 02:43:56 UTC  |  Edited by: nat longshot
Well now i did not think i would get these many replys nice to see people think missiles need a rework.

Now given i'am a gunner first and desided to try missiles maybe just maybe ccp will read the and think ok maybe we DRopt the ball here so.

HAY CCP DEV'S or GMS whats your take on this? Speak up were waiting. Time for more then just pretty looks for the missles time to give them the teeth to back up all that work.

Btw thanks everyone did not know i open a good topic on this one. well i think its a good topic.

 [13:12:18] CCP Punkturis nat longshot you're a cutie.. OH YAH I WIN!!

Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#34 - 2012-05-16 05:24:40 UTC
Damage scaling, torps do 1k dps OMGWTF, yada yada. 1 billion dps means nothing if you will never apply it. Just look at the stats, SBs and the Golem, both of which get massive bonus specifically to Torps, are the only used Torp boats. The Raven which appears to be the best Torpedo platform, absolutely sucks with them.
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#35 - 2012-05-16 05:53:21 UTC
Explosion radius on Torps is too high, you shouldn't need to use a target painter to do full damage against your intended target, which in this case is Battleships.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#36 - 2012-05-16 07:48:52 UTC
Mashie Saldana wrote:
Use webs and target painters.

Don't shoot frigs.




Hey, does the TP improve things for missile ships? I use them sometimes to get more out of drones but I never looked into how that affects missiles.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

nat longshot
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-05-16 08:21:43 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Mashie Saldana wrote:
Use webs and target painters.

Don't shoot frigs.




Hey, does the TP improve things for missile ships? I use them sometimes to get more out of drones but I never looked into how that affects missiles.


yes it makes your targets sig raids larger so your missiles will do more dmg.

in the testing i did the tp makes a huge plus in dmg on target in testing over 500 points in volley dmg and with 2 tp with rage torp even more given your gettng close the the exp radius of the warhead.

 [13:12:18] CCP Punkturis nat longshot you're a cutie.. OH YAH I WIN!!

Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-05-16 08:34:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tor Gungnir
Esan Vartesa wrote:
The problem is that Torpedoes have the crutch of needing to be balanced not just against other missiles, but for use by stealth bombers. Any boost to them for use by battleships would overpower the SBs. So they suck for BSs.

SBs should never have been designed to use an existing missile type. This kind of interconnected dependency is a huge no-no in game-balance design, as it makes balancing impossible without jumping through ever-more complex hoops.


Maybe a redesign is on order. With more focus on the Bombs rather than Torpedoes. Currently the Bombs are more of a bonus feature and the Torpedoes do most of the damage, no?

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#39 - 2012-05-16 08:40:25 UTC
Esan Vartesa wrote:
Also, mandatory:

"Give me my black T2 Khanid Torpedo Battleship!!!"
Get in line. Give me my red HAM Roden Myrmidon first!
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#40 - 2012-05-16 09:33:22 UTC
Dedicated missile slinger checking in. One TP on a ship of 400m sigrad is enough to get full damage from the sigrad/expvel part of the damage formula.

The velocity explosion velocity part is compensated for with skills. For example, my Rage torps have an explosion velocity of 91m/s on a manticore without exp vel rigs. So most of the time versus their intended target, rage torpedoes just fine.

The problem comes up when you are shooting anything smaller than 400m or faster than 91m/s. In those cases, CN torps are your choice. Also, in those cases, you probably want some bros along for the ride.

And to make a point, navy torps plus target painter turned on frigates can kill them by the time they get into their weapons range.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

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