These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

New dev blog: War, Modules & Super Friends

First post
Author
Callic Veratar
#81 - 2012-05-14 15:55:39 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
Evelgrivion wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
I'd say that 10B is a reasonable price to allow you to start gaming the system.


So since they're 20 billion each, we can go back to the old balance state for super capitals, right?


Reductio ad absurdum is unbecoming.


It's usually a pretty good technique for pointing out poor arguments; perceived expense is not what I would consider a good justification for this kind of meta-gaming.


This meta gaming is only effective for the corps that want to try to reduce wardecs, and to do so, require massive expenses, and it doesn't stop anyone from wardeccing them anyway (since cost shouldn't be balancing, the price of a wardec is no more effective than the cost of adding alts to a corp). Yes it should be discouraged, but to compare it to a super cap that, even in small numbers, were extremely effective against everything is absurd.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#82 - 2012-05-14 15:56:44 UTC
Foolish Bob wrote:
perhaps I'm missing something, but doesn't this multiplier make it excessively easy to make large alliances immune to wardecs by small entities?

Let's say I've got an alliance of 3k people --> 320M per week war cost
We'll pretend there's 4 weeks in a month and say that this means 1.28B per month cost

In my alliance of 3k, I find 4 people to make 1 man corps
All corps then declare war on my alliance, and I pay the bills.

By my count then that's 4 people all having to pay 5 B (give or take) per month, so a cost to my alliance of some 20B per month. Then, if anyone else wants to wardec me, they have to now pay 6.4B per month for the honour (1.6B per week). Ok, sure other big alliances can do this and try and suppress my actions, but I only need to drop wars as needed to maintain the shield at the level I desire. Anyone small on the other hand would be completely shut out from being able to declare war on me, and for the most part all of this should be pocket change for my alliance.

Unless, like I said, I missed something.

I think the number of wars against an alliance is not relevant to your cost in deccing that alliance. What matters is how many wars you have declared.

So the original E-Uni dec shield method of having 10 fake wars against them will not work.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#83 - 2012-05-14 15:59:13 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Foolish Bob wrote:
perhaps I'm missing something, but doesn't this multiplier make it excessively easy to make large alliances immune to wardecs by small entities?

Let's say I've got an alliance of 3k people --> 320M per week war cost
We'll pretend there's 4 weeks in a month and say that this means 1.28B per month cost

In my alliance of 3k, I find 4 people to make 1 man corps
All corps then declare war on my alliance, and I pay the bills.

By my count then that's 4 people all having to pay 5 B (give or take) per month, so a cost to my alliance of some 20B per month. Then, if anyone else wants to wardec me, they have to now pay 6.4B per month for the honour (1.6B per week). Ok, sure other big alliances can do this and try and suppress my actions, but I only need to drop wars as needed to maintain the shield at the level I desire. Anyone small on the other hand would be completely shut out from being able to declare war on me, and for the most part all of this should be pocket change for my alliance.

Unless, like I said, I missed something.

I think the number of wars against an alliance is not relevant to your cost in deccing that alliance. What matters is how many wars you have declared.

So the original E-Uni dec shield method of having 10 fake wars against them will not work.


At the cost now they are immune and dont need a 'dec shield', they can continue blobbing lowsec unimpeded.
Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#84 - 2012-05-14 15:59:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelgrivion
Callic Veratar wrote:
This meta gaming is only effective for the corps that want to try to reduce wardecs, and to do so, require massive expenses, and it doesn't stop anyone from wardeccing them anyway (since cost shouldn't be balancing, the price of a wardec is no more effective than the cost of adding alts to a corp). Yes it should be discouraged, but to compare it to a super cap that, even in small numbers, were extremely effective against everything is absurd.


Even if you think the comparison goes too far, the creation of dec-cost-bloating alts is something that obviously reeks of trouble, the cost scaling is a blatant display of favoritism towards organizations that are large, and I haven't seen any active interest in mitigating these potentially serious problems in advance from CCP. Straight
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#85 - 2012-05-14 16:00:00 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:

You can't join an alliance if you're an aggressor in a war.


Good change. It prevents one of the possible exploits.

I'm not sure that the '7-day' lock out for corp member changes is completely good. It's probably too draconian when 3-day limits would have sufficed just as well.

But it doesn't solve the problem of:
- declare war
- scout out a target in a neutral alt
- join wardec, blow up target
- repeat with another neutral alt

And if you wardec the target from multiple shell corps, your neutral alts can:
- hop into corp #1, blow up target, leave corp #1
- find another target, hop into corp #2, blow up target, leavel corp #2
- repeat until your 7-day waiting period is up, rejoin corp #1

In fact, smart attackers will merely setup half a dozen different shell corps. Each shell corp will wardec a different target. All of the fighters stay in NPC corps until they have found a vulnerable enemy. They then insta-join the correct shell corporation which allows them to attack said enemy, then leave right away.

There needs to be a delay on joining an aggressor corporation - such as not being able to join the aggressor corporation until downtime. Which nips the "scout out target, insta-join, pop target" exploit in the bud.
Taryn Porter
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#86 - 2012-05-14 16:00:37 UTC
The CPU rig sounds like a boon for Armor Tankers, but a bane for Passive Shield Tankers. Why should a CPU rig affect a non-related system, especially one that some people don't even care about? Amarr and Gallente ships can use these without any reservations. Caldari (especially) and Minmatar ships might need CPU too.
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#87 - 2012-05-14 16:03:11 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
gfldex wrote:
Quote:
Trial accounts are not counted when counting corp membership. We considered extending this to inactive accounts too, but as this is a fairly low percentage overall, decided to not exclude them. Note also that members in corps/alliances allied to the defender are never counted.


That means I can start a trial, untrial it with a PLEX and leave the char in my corp forever? I would go so far to say, that this is the most easy to game system in EVE then. Could you explain to me why T2 BPO holder are pretty much immune from wardecs while the 3-RL-friends-corp is not?


Trial accounts will never count, whether they are active or inactive. As for the inactive member count, that was initially based on a bit iffy data that we're looking into right now, it was my fault for not editing the dev blog better to explain this. Once we have more accurate data in we can make a better call for whether to exclude inactive members or not. Can't say for sure now, but it is likely we will adjust this post Inferno.


There may not be that many alts like that now, but with this change, the number would explode. You can get a literally infinite amount of alts into inactive accounts for free trough the buddy invite system.
If it goes trough unchanged, people will simply send buddy invites to themselves and choose PLEX as the reward if the "buddy" activates his account, then send the "buddy" account the isk needed for a plex to activate that account with. Create 3 alts on the account and put them in corp, then use the plex you got as a reward to do it again until you reach the desired member count and then sell the last reward plex again.

End result: However many alts you want for 0 cost.

This can be done even if you exclude inactive accounts by simply repeating once every 51 days (when the 21 day trial+30 days from a plex expire), but at least that's better then only having to do it once.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#88 - 2012-05-14 16:04:07 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
This meta gaming is only effective for the corps that want to try to reduce wardecs, and to do so, require massive expenses, and it doesn't stop anyone from wardeccing them anyway (since cost shouldn't be balancing, the price of a wardec is no more effective than the cost of adding alts to a corp). Yes it should be discouraged, but to compare it to a super cap that, even in small numbers, were extremely effective against everything is absurd.


Even if you think the comparison goes too far, the creation of dec-cost-bloating alts is something that obviously reeks of trouble, the cost scaling is a blatant display of favoritism towards organizations that are large, and I haven't seen any active interest in mitigating these potentially serious problems in advance from CCP. Straight

Some favoritism towards larger entities is acceptable, especially if CCP wants to encourage hisec small corps to band together more often (which is a good thing because of increased player interaction). This encouragement coming at the cost of more metagaming and weird mechanics is the unacceptable part.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Foolish Bob
E-MORage
#89 - 2012-05-14 16:07:28 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:


The war multiplier only applies the number of wars you have declared, the number of wars the target is in does not affect the cost.


well that makes me feel better. I must say, though, that I rather like the idea of including the ratio somehow, so that small corps can easily declare war against large alliances for comedy and targets, but the opposite is not true - perhaps something like

k*max(1,log10(m*A/D)^p)*log10(q*A)*W^r

where A is Aggressor size,
D is defender size
W is number of extant wars the Aggressor holds
k,m,p,q,r are tuning constants

I don't know for sure - I'm at work, so I'm just writing functions that should multiply roughly in the right shapes with the right properties, but I hope you get the idea. Smile
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2012-05-14 16:07:35 UTC
Fantastic but am I the only one who believes the drone damage module should be a High slot?

Most drone ships have utility high slots to put them on and it prevents stacking them on carriers with drone control units.

My only feedback.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#91 - 2012-05-14 16:08:00 UTC
Taryn Porter wrote:
The CPU rig sounds like a boon for Armor Tankers, but a bane for Passive Shield Tankers. Why should a CPU rig affect a non-related system, especially one that some people don't even care about? Amarr and Gallente ships can use these without any reservations. Caldari (especially) and Minmatar ships might need CPU too.


This does seem an issue. A fix would be 2 cpu rigs: One that hits shields, and one that hits cap recharge rate. You pick the one that works best for you.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#92 - 2012-05-14 16:08:19 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
The war cost multiplier will apply to all your wars equally, but only when a new bill comes up.

What's the logic behind this multiplier? Why should it be so much more expensive to go to war with 2 100 man corps than a single 200 man corp?


The official response you will get is that "The increased cost reflects the easier access to multiple targets". CCP SoniClover will ignore that fact that targets can in fact shoot back, and will act like larger entities all just fly around waiting to be shot and what you are doing is putting more quarters into the machine for more things to shoot at. However this was never mentioned as an original goal of increasing war dec cost and was never floated until some players came up with tat argument a few weeks ago. So it's bull!

The actual logic behind the increasing of fees is that they are giving more protection to larger corps from "nuisance" wars. Now They can't openly admit this, but i'm convinced it's being done to give larger alliances easier logistics movement, and a war dec protection for Eve uni.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#93 - 2012-05-14 16:08:55 UTC
Taryn Porter wrote:
The CPU rig sounds like a boon for Armor Tankers, but a bane for Passive Shield Tankers. Why should a CPU rig affect a non-related system, especially one that some people don't even care about? Amarr and Gallente ships can use these without any reservations. Caldari (especially) and Minmatar ships might need CPU too.

Jamming (and other EW) rigs reduce shields, which some, but not all, EW ships care about (Rook cares, Lachesis doesn't).
Drone rigs reduce CPU, which some, but not all, drone ships care about (Vexor cares, Arbitrator doesn't).
Astronautic rigs reduce armor, which some, but not all, fast ships care about (Malediction cares, Stiletto doesn't).

I fail to see how the CPU rig is out of line.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-05-14 16:09:04 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Some favoritism towards larger entities is acceptable, especially if CCP wants to encourage hisec small corps to band together more often (which is a good thing because of increased player interaction). This encouragement coming at the cost of more metagaming and weird mechanics is the unacceptable part.


Back in 2006, the Eve Online playerbase was positively howling at CCP for showing petition favoritism towards the power blocks that gave them good PR material to work with. Today, those voices are silent because this time, the favoritism benefits them. Honestly, I don't like CCP designing any game mechanics with an eye towards helping any specific organizations in New Eden.

I'm glad to see we're in agreement about how these mechanics are not a good idea, though.
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2012-05-14 16:11:24 UTC
Three cheers for Team Super Friends! \☻/
Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#96 - 2012-05-14 16:12:50 UTC
Manssell wrote:

The actual logic behind the increasing of fees is that they are giving more protection to larger corps from "nuisance" wars. Now They can't openly admit this, but i'm convinced it's being done to give larger alliances easier logistics movement, and a war dec protection for Eve uni.


The 'dec shield' exploit eve-uni currently use was explained to them in detail by a dev. Wouldn't mind, but they're actually fun to fight, used to love their fleet of 50+ roaming around during privateers against my gang of 5. But thats not what Eve-Uni want to teach, instead they just go round and round low sec interfering with faction wars.
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#97 - 2012-05-14 16:17:28 UTC
whooyes

★★★ Secure 3rd party service ★★★

Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Twitter @ChribbaVeldspar

Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
#98 - 2012-05-14 16:20:54 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:

You can't join an alliance if you're an aggressor in a war.


Good change. It prevents one of the possible exploits.

I'm not sure that the '7-day' lock out for corp member changes is completely good. It's probably too draconian when 3-day limits would have sufficed just as well.

But it doesn't solve the problem of:
- declare war
- scout out a target in a neutral alt
- join wardec, blow up target
- repeat with another neutral alt

And if you wardec the target from multiple shell corps, your neutral alts can:
- hop into corp #1, blow up target, leave corp #1
- find another target, hop into corp #2, blow up target, leavel corp #2
- repeat until your 7-day waiting period is up, rejoin corp #1

In fact, smart attackers will merely setup half a dozen different shell corps. Each shell corp will wardec a different target. All of the fighters stay in NPC corps until they have found a vulnerable enemy. They then insta-join the correct shell corporation which allows them to attack said enemy, then leave right away.

There needs to be a delay on joining an aggressor corporation - such as not being able to join the aggressor corporation until downtime. Which nips the "scout out target, insta-join, pop target" exploit in the bud.


Just imagine how much of this could be eliminated by restricting Eve to 1-player=1-character.

*ducks*
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#99 - 2012-05-14 16:22:45 UTC
Esan Vartesa wrote:
Just imagine how much of this could be eliminated by restricting Eve to 1-player=1-character.

*ducks*

Dumb alt mechanics, forum alt posting, sec status avoiding, all gone... Mmmmm...

You are not allowed to make me daydream. Stop it.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#100 - 2012-05-14 16:23:02 UTC
I don't know why everyone thinks this makes it impossible to dec E-Uni. It will cost, what, 200-300 mil? So get your corp of 5 members to each run a few L4 missions one afternoon, and you get one week vs all of E-Uni.

CCP: I heard a rumor that if the target corp of a dec makes the war mutual, then the war can no longer be terminated by the aggressor, but only by a surrender. Is that true?

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction