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New dev blog: War, Modules & Super Friends

First post
Author
Ashrun Dir
Love for You
#201 - 2012-05-14 20:10:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashrun Dir
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ashrun Dir wrote:
CCP Phantom wrote:
Inferno is burning towards New Eden, impacting on May 22nd, shaking up the Universe with improved war mechanics and a multitude of completely new modules, never seen before.

Read all about these changes and the new modules in this exciting dev blog by CCP SoniClover!


Additonal information:
It seems that The Scope news reporters are never asleep, they already have picked up rumors of our upcoming new modules! Read their story here.


Looks good.

I'm sure someone has mentioned this before; but, I'd like to reiterate this suggestion. For the formula you've determined:

Quote:
The refined formula is: (log2.05831 N)^2 * 300000 * N^0.27, where N is the number of corp members (see also comments below). The minimum is 50 million.


I think it might be more reasonable to make N the number of accounts in the corp/alliance.

Let's take a look at this graph I made that shows the dec costs if you have 1 character from your account in the corp/alliance, and the cost if you have all 3 characters from your account in the corp/alliance:

http://imgur.com/iC031

As mentioned above, the black curve is the cost to war dec a corp/alliance having N members, in this case it is assumed that each member has only 1 character in the corp/alliance. The red curve is the cost to war dec that same corp/alliance when each member has all 3 of their characters available on their account in the corp/alliance. The Y axis is in isk, please note the 10^6 multiplier.

The bottom plot shows the ratio of Red Curve / Black Curve. Here we see that the war dec cost is increased by a factor of 2.0-1.9, and falls similarly to 1/x, and then approaches an asymptotic limit of ~1.5-1.6.

The reason I think the above is a problem is that if I have three characters in my corp/alliance (One is my main, and two are alts) the current formula treats me as contributing three viable targets to an opposing corp/alliance. But in actuality, the number of viable targets I represent for an opposing corp/alliance is only 1.

I imagine some corps/alliances might take advantage of this fact. This cost increase is definitely not negligible. I feel this is not in the spirit of Eve (i.e. to inspire conflict, not evading).

Thanks for your time.


TL;DR
Click the link above



Figuring out how many players from a specific account are in a given alliance is a lot more difficult that simply only counting active characteers. Active characters in this case meaning characters that have logged on in the last 30 days.

We already have this information available to corp management, which means it is already tracked.

A handly add on would be to have on the corp info page (for those with appropriate roles) a readout that shows Total Members / Active Members.


Very good point, Active Characters in X time window would be a better representation of viable targets.

Someone also suggested that the war dec stick to the player (corp) for 7 days if they drop corp (alliance), I think this would also be a good suggestion.

I also liked the idea someone had about N being the difference in size between the two corps/alliances.
Nohb Oddy
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#202 - 2012-05-14 20:21:47 UTC
I have a question for the Dev Team working on the Wardecing system:

If/When the number of active wars drops from the increased fees, is there a point/line that once crossed you will rework the new system?

While I feel this new system is going to have a negative impact on how wars are conducted in High-Sec, as well as not covering the the basic guidelines listed at FanFest (Null Powerblocks using Wardecs instead of third party sources to keep track of kill records), I understand the desire to change things and try something new. And I guess the current wardec system has been deemed broken and this is an attempt to fix it. Or the more likely, wanting to add new features to it (thank you for the new features) and decided to rework the basics of a war to adjust for the current state of EvE. However, there's a lot of EvE based on cost and returns, so anything that effects any costs or return on investments is going to have a chance of backfiring.

Basically, I look wanting some form of reassurance that if this system does backfire the Dev Team already has an out to fix the problem instead of the players having to wait ten to fifteen months.

Nohb Oddy likes you.

Callidus Dux
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#203 - 2012-05-14 20:23:22 UTC
Quote:

We also wanted to update the Tracking Disruptors to affect missiles too, but the version we implemented was too limited (it only worked if you were flying certain ships and/or the enemy was using certain missiles). We haven’t found a good universal solution yet, so we’ll have to wait on this one.


Is this a bad joke or are you just silly? Tracking Disruptors against missiles? Shocked
Since when do missiles have tracking? Lol
Do not come live with this dull idea! Evil
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#204 - 2012-05-14 20:26:11 UTC
Callidus Dux wrote:
Quote:

We also wanted to update the Tracking Disruptors to affect missiles too, but the version we implemented was too limited (it only worked if you were flying certain ships and/or the enemy was using certain missiles). We haven’t found a good universal solution yet, so we’ll have to wait on this one.


Is this a bad joke or are you just silly? Tracking Disruptors against missiles? Shocked
Since when do missiles have tracking? Lol
Do not come live with this dull idea! Evil

Missed the discussion, did you? I think the idea was that Tracking Disruptors/Enhancers/Computers would instead become Weapon Disruptors/Enhancers/Computers, affecting both turrets and missiles (so, being able to bonus/penalize explosion velocity and missile velocity just as they can bonus/penalize weapon tracking and range).

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Cordo Draken
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
#205 - 2012-05-14 20:30:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Cordo Draken
Well, Guess Team Superfriends just Confirmed for us the BLATANT ignoring of the universal arguement against Cost escalation! Even though "Reduced" in escalation, it's still plenty large enough to provide a CCP Dec Shield, WAY TO FAIL HARD. But, We all knew it was a bull leading this charge.

Take note as Wars drastically get reduced. Ironic how the "War Expansion" Kills the amount of Wars in Eve. Gee, ya think You Devs did something Wrong here? Do you need engraved Concrete to see the Writing on the Wall? How Does Cost scaling Improve War interactions? IT DOESN'T!

OH, and on the Mods:

Armor Adaptive Hardener I - Low slot. Armor Hardener that adjusts its resistance based on the damage received. Only one can be fitted. Just the tech I version now, but others will follow if this turns out well.

Cool, Where's the Mod for Shields like this?


Small/Medium/Large Overclocking Processor Unit I & II - A rig that increases the CPU output of your ship, at a cost of reduced shield recharge rate.

HUH... More dissadvantage towards shields. Why does this Rig impact Shields (Only)? I'm seeing a great Biased development against shields and in favor of Armor ships. Do you people even play Eve? Do you just pull disadvantages out of a hat or do you purposely hate and nerf certain ships and Races?

EVE Inferno = The rekindling Hate of Incarna, except to Large Corps, Alliances and the CSM they Elect in, misrepresenting all of EVE community.

Whomever said, "You only get one shot to make a good impression," was utterly wrong. I've made plenty of great impressions with my Autocannons 

Callidus Dux
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#206 - 2012-05-14 20:32:09 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Callidus Dux wrote:
Quote:

We also wanted to update the Tracking Disruptors to affect missiles too, but the version we implemented was too limited (it only worked if you were flying certain ships and/or the enemy was using certain missiles). We haven’t found a good universal solution yet, so we’ll have to wait on this one.


Is this a bad joke or are you just silly? Tracking Disruptors against missiles? Shocked
Since when do missiles have tracking? Lol
Do not come live with this dull idea! Evil

Missed the discussion, did you? I think the idea was that Tracking Disruptors/Enhancers/Computers would instead become Weapon Disruptors/Enhancers/Computers, affecting both turrets and missiles (so, being able to bonus/penalize explosion velocity and missile velocity just as they can bonus/penalize weapon tracking and range).

But Why? Only to nerf missiles to death?
Cordo Draken
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
#207 - 2012-05-14 20:37:02 UTC
Callidus Dux wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Callidus Dux wrote:
Quote:

We also wanted to update the Tracking Disruptors to affect missiles too, but the version we implemented was too limited (it only worked if you were flying certain ships and/or the enemy was using certain missiles). We haven’t found a good universal solution yet, so we’ll have to wait on this one.


Is this a bad joke or are you just silly? Tracking Disruptors against missiles? Shocked
Since when do missiles have tracking? Lol
Do not come live with this dull idea! Evil

Missed the discussion, did you? I think the idea was that Tracking Disruptors/Enhancers/Computers would instead become Weapon Disruptors/Enhancers/Computers, affecting both turrets and missiles (so, being able to bonus/penalize explosion velocity and missile velocity just as they can bonus/penalize weapon tracking and range).

But Why? Only to nerf missiles to death?


Coupled with the Rig drawback and the Adaptive Damage mod for Armor Buff, It's Clear they hate Caldari and Shield ships... why not cripple the missiles as well, right?

FYI, I can fly everything race subcap, but this trend is so blatant it's ridiculous.

Whomever said, "You only get one shot to make a good impression," was utterly wrong. I've made plenty of great impressions with my Autocannons 

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#208 - 2012-05-14 20:37:20 UTC
CCP: Someone testing on Sisi reported that if a pilot dropped from a decced corp to a NPC corp they would not be at war, but would be "marked". If they made or joined a new corp that mark would cause the new corp to come under the same war dec (unless the war had ended).

Is it going to be that way on TQ?

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Beledia Ilphukiir
Proffessional Experts Group
#209 - 2012-05-14 20:37:23 UTC
Sho neeta wrote:
Quote:
(log2.05831 N)^2 * 300000 * N^0.27, where N is the number of corp members


Wrong... Wrong wrong wrong.

Don't you get it this will mean that that big alliances and corps can attack small corps and alliance cheaply. The issue is with different sized groups attacking each other it should be

WHERE N IS THE DIFFERENCE IN THE NUMBER OF CORP MEMBERS.

Big vs Big CHEAP
smal vs small CHEAP
Big vs Small Expensive
small vs Big Expensive


Why would that be an improvement? Because it forces more "fair fights"? I get what CCP is doing, but I don't like it or your idea, since both are lacking from my perspective. They both suffer from trying to fit every type of wardec under the umbrella of silly initial overarching premises. For CCP it's: wardecs are about getting targets to shoot at, and you want to enforce some concept of fair fights. My problem with this is, that the aggressive wars I've participated in have largely been about resource denial or shooting people(not corps or alliances, but specific people within them) we don't like and both proposals fit these war goals badly.

Let's take a simple situation as an example. Our corp is grinding a static complex in highsec, since it's near our staging area and provides good steady income for little effort. Members of another entity starts using the same complex. We dec them to force those complex farmers out of the system, so we can get all the loot. A simple example, but it doesn't really fit in with the initial premises for wardecs people have presented. We aren't looking for fights, fair or otherwise, or prey. We just want the few guys who came to farm our site out of there. If they leave without fighting, that is just fine with us.

The problem is that the numbers of members in their corp/alliance is irrelevant from our perspective. We aren't trying to wage total war or gank soft highsec targets. We just wanted to be able to try to leverage our superiority in that tiny corner of space in order to get rid of a few competing pilots and stop their operations there. Suicide ganking isn't good enough for this, so it needs to be a wardec. It really shouldn't matter if they were members of a small corp or a huge alliance. In CCPs proposal and yours we are forced to pay according to the ridiculous member count number instead of the practical amount of targets we are actually engaging.

From my perspective CCPs proposal is good, but only as a framework. It can propably deal with the meat and potato wardec cases fairly well with some tweaks. The problem is, that it's a one-size-fits-all -solution, so it doesn't work well in some cases. Your solution isn't really an improvement, since it's another type of one-size-fits-all -solution, that just caters to a different audience. I think a better solution would be to bring additional wardec tools to the table, instead of trying to get everything to fit under one ruleset.

Personally I would like to see additional wardec options to fill those niches. I'd be much happier with a wardec option, that entirely ignores member numbers in the cost and instead bills me a static wardec cost and then extra by the number of targets I've actually killed. This way I wouldn't have to pay half a billion to dec a huge alliance, if I only wanted to drive a few of their highsec members/assets away from a specific system. You know, pay for actual agressions I've committed, instead of getting billed by some maximum theoretical number of aggression violations, that I could have potentially committed, but not really.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#210 - 2012-05-14 20:38:29 UTC
Callidus Dux wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Callidus Dux wrote:
Quote:

We also wanted to update the Tracking Disruptors to affect missiles too, but the version we implemented was too limited (it only worked if you were flying certain ships and/or the enemy was using certain missiles). We haven’t found a good universal solution yet, so we’ll have to wait on this one.


Is this a bad joke or are you just silly? Tracking Disruptors against missiles? Shocked
Since when do missiles have tracking? Lol
Do not come live with this dull idea! Evil

Missed the discussion, did you? I think the idea was that Tracking Disruptors/Enhancers/Computers would instead become Weapon Disruptors/Enhancers/Computers, affecting both turrets and missiles (so, being able to bonus/penalize explosion velocity and missile velocity just as they can bonus/penalize weapon tracking and range).

But Why? Only to nerf missiles to death?

All ships are subject to ECM, sensor dampening, target painting, webbing, and neuting. Why is TD only effective against turret ships?

Turret ships can already miss and do no damage without help from TDs, and TDs make those fights quite... interesting. For the same "miss" effect on missiles, you need absurdly fast ships -- and the missiles still do damage. That definitely sounds right.

The TD buff is a buff to small ships in over-class engagements. Currently, a couple of frigates with TD support can take on a Hurricane or a Harbinger, but not a Drake. This would change that.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#211 - 2012-05-14 20:40:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Cordo Draken wrote:
Coupled with the Rig drawback and the Adaptive Damage mod for Armor Buff, It's Clear they hate Caldari and Shield ships...

There is no Invulnerability Field or Anciliary Shield Booster for armor, therefore CCP clearly hates Amarr and armor ships.

Is it really so bad for armor and shield tanking to be different and work differently? Them being the same would be the oh-so-feared "dumbing down" of Eve.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#212 - 2012-05-14 20:40:32 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Callidus Dux wrote:
Quote:

We also wanted to update the Tracking Disruptors to affect missiles too, but the version we implemented was too limited (it only worked if you were flying certain ships and/or the enemy was using certain missiles). We haven’t found a good universal solution yet, so we’ll have to wait on this one.


Is this a bad joke or are you just silly? Tracking Disruptors against missiles? Shocked
Since when do missiles have tracking? Lol
Do not come live with this dull idea! Evil

Missed the discussion, did you? I think the idea was that Tracking Disruptors/Enhancers/Computers would instead become Weapon Disruptors/Enhancers/Computers, affecting both turrets and missiles (so, being able to bonus/penalize explosion velocity and missile velocity just as they can bonus/penalize weapon tracking and range).


This, very much so. Target painters affect both already (guns to a lesser degree than missiles).

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Sister Rhode
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#213 - 2012-05-14 20:40:45 UTC
Tippia wrote:
I still maintain that the “pay for number of targets” logic is wrong-headed — no matter the base cost and any diminishing returns, it only ever means that small targets will be picked on and that dec-shielding will become the standard.

Make it a relative measure: you pay for number imbalance.

abs( ln( attacker size / target size ) / ln( size multiplier ) ) × imbalance cost + base cost.

In other words, for every [size multiplier] times larger or smaller the target is than the attacker, the cost increases by a factor of [imbalance cost], with a minimum price tag of [base cost]. This gives you a lot of variables to play with: how cheap will any war be (base cost)? How much do I have to pay to bully a small guy or annoy a large guy at the Jita undock (imbalance cost)? And, most interestingly, what actually counts as having an “unfair numerical advantage” (size multiplier)?

E.g.
A size multiplier of 1.5, imbalance cost of 50M and base cost of 5M — for every 50% increase in the size difference between target and aggressor, the war becomes 50M ISK more expensive with a minimum cost of 5M for perfectly equal sizes.

· A 10-man corp attacking a 1-man corp (or vice versa): 289M ISK.
· A 10-man corp attacking a 20-man corp (or vice versa): 90M ISK.
· A 3,500-man corp attacking a 5,000-man corp: 49M ISK.
· A 5-man corp attacking a 5,000-man corp: 857M ISK.



CCP read this ****.

This is exactly how the costs should work.
Kadesh Priestess
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#214 - 2012-05-14 20:41:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Kadesh Priestess
Fueled shield boosters & shield booster bonuses. Do you plan to apply bonuses which work on plain SBs onto new FSBs? Because currently it looks like a mess.

Bonuses with skill requirement filter by Shield Operation work (because FSB has this skill requirement) - e.g. Hawk shield boost amount bonus.
Bonuses with group filter by Shield Booster do not work (because new SBs have Fueled Shield Booster group) - e.g. Golem

Do you plan to rectify this situation? Towards which variant?
Vanessa Vansen
Vandeo
#215 - 2012-05-14 20:41:17 UTC
Hyperforce99 wrote:
i would rather see something that makes more sense instead of making tracking disruptors effect missiles.

such as a high slot module that acts as an automated point defense turret.
It could intercepts a certain mount of missiles / rockets per cycle.
This means that swarm style missiles will be more effective compared to single high damage missiles.
If this is tied to the new missile effects it would be pretty awesome.


The missile version of this exists already and it's called defender
Callidus Dux
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#216 - 2012-05-14 20:42:50 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Callidus Dux wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Callidus Dux wrote:
Quote:

We also wanted to update the Tracking Disruptors to affect missiles too, but the version we implemented was too limited (it only worked if you were flying certain ships and/or the enemy was using certain missiles). We haven’t found a good universal solution yet, so we’ll have to wait on this one.


Is this a bad joke or are you just silly? Tracking Disruptors against missiles? Shocked
Since when do missiles have tracking? Lol
Do not come live with this dull idea! Evil

Missed the discussion, did you? I think the idea was that Tracking Disruptors/Enhancers/Computers would instead become Weapon Disruptors/Enhancers/Computers, affecting both turrets and missiles (so, being able to bonus/penalize explosion velocity and missile velocity just as they can bonus/penalize weapon tracking and range).

But Why? Only to nerf missiles to death?

All ships are subject to ECM, sensor dampening, target painting, webbing, and neuting. Why is TD only effective against turret ships?

Turret ships can already miss and do no damage without help from TDs, and TDs make those fights quite... interesting. For the same "miss" effect on missiles, you need absurdly fast ships -- and the missiles still do damage. That definitely sounds right.

The TD buff is a buff to small ships in over-class engagements. Currently, a couple of frigates with TD support can take on a Hurricane or a Harbinger, but not a Drake. This would change that.


Yeah! Because all missile ships are the best available PvP ships now. So they need to be nerfed more. Roll
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#217 - 2012-05-14 20:44:31 UTC
Vanessa Vansen wrote:
Hyperforce99 wrote:
i would rather see something that makes more sense instead of making tracking disruptors effect missiles.

such as a high slot module that acts as an automated point defense turret.
It could intercepts a certain mount of missiles / rockets per cycle.
This means that swarm style missiles will be more effective compared to single high damage missiles.
If this is tied to the new missile effects it would be pretty awesome.


The missile version of this exists already and it's called defender

And is completely nonfunctional and useless in most PvP situations.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Caecilia Arene
Doomheim
#218 - 2012-05-14 20:44:44 UTC
Don't like the war dec stuff. There has been a lot of discussion here about it and I'm in general agreement most on this issue.

Basically it seems to protect those who are most able to protect themselves. War just seems a lot more expensive now. I would be nice if a DEV explained the philosophy behind this change especially regarding how it tends to shield the biggest and leave the smallest very vulnerable. Maybe I'm missing something but clarification would be nice.

Everything else is good though. I like the new modules.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#219 - 2012-05-14 20:51:28 UTC
Callidus Dux wrote:

Yeah! Because all missile ships are the best available PvP ships now. So they need to be nerfed more. Roll

I didn't say they were. There is no "best available PvP ship".

However, you can't reasonably get "under" the missiles of a Hookbill, Hawk, Drake, or Tengu (all popular ships) using almost any ship. Hell, I've seen HMLs blow up Warrior IIs, which just doesn't happen with any medium turret weapon system. And yet... they are exempt from tracking disruption? That just doesn't make sense.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#220 - 2012-05-14 20:52:40 UTC
Ideas for having the size of the aggressor corp count:

The aggressor knows the exact time of their dec and the size of their target, What they would do is drop members until they got just the right size to minimize the cost, make the dec, then have all their members re-join.

The defender cannot do this as they do not know the size of the next corp to dec them and thus cannot play such meta-games.

How it could be fixed: When you join an aggressor corp, there is a admission fee paid to concord to adjust the cost to what is appropriate to the new size.

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