These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Intro to Invention
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
LJ Hugz
Shield Protector Innovations
#1 - 2012-05-13 18:23:05 UTC
Greetings,

I'm about to get into Invention, and I wanted to ask to make sure I was planning correctly.

In order to have 15 production lines producing Item X, this is what I would need to do:

1. Research max copies of BPO - 4 hr for max copies at science 4, mobile lab - 15 times
2. Invent said copies - 1 hr 15 min at mobile lab - 15 times (more than that, with only 40% success rate)
3. Produce off the 10 run module X BPCs

In order to have enough copies, i'm going to have to have multiple lines copying 24/7 and I would have to update every 4 hours.
I would also have to babysit the Invention slots every hour and 15 mins to see if it succeeded, and to queue up another one.

Is this basically how it works? Seems like an awful lot of work to be constantly producing 15 lines of T2 modules.

Thanks,
LJ
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#2 - 2012-05-13 18:51:57 UTC
That's pretty much how it works, yes.

Yes, it's a lot of work. That's why there are margins there. If it wasn't a lot of work, everyone and their mother would be doing it, which would drive the margin to next to nothing.

Something to bear in mind though. Manufacturing times are a lot higher than invention times. Take Nanofiber structures. They're an hour per run. So, with a 40% success rate, you'll need to be inventing for about 3 hours per max run. Or so. Less baby sitting than you might thing.


If you were doing ammo, research time is around 37 minutes in a POS. Manufacture time is 2+ days (5 days for max run isn't uncommon. Heavy missiles for example) Building a stockpile of blueprints isn't hard. I'd recommend having a decent Scientific networking, so you can be off and doing other stuff in the same region.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-05-13 22:15:36 UTC
Keep in mind that invention times vary, and you can stack jobs in a POS just like you can in-station. I have four alt that run ten (10) invention jobs at a time using multiple labs, all running research, copies, and invention. Other alts do copies only (Research V) so those can stack also (much longer run times there tho).
LJ Hugz
Shield Protector Innovations
#4 - 2012-05-13 22:36:17 UTC
Katja Faith wrote:
Keep in mind that invention times vary, and you can stack jobs in a POS just like you can in-station. I have four alt that run ten (10) invention jobs at a time using multiple labs, all running research, copies, and invention. Other alts do copies only (Research V) so those can stack also (much longer run times there tho).


By stacking, do you mean that you can queue it up so that it will do multiple invention jobs right after another? Similarly to how you can do 300 manufacturing runs, one right after another, 300 times, for instance?
clixor
Celluloid Gurus
#5 - 2012-05-13 23:00:27 UTC
LJ Hugz wrote:
Katja Faith wrote:
Keep in mind that invention times vary, and you can stack jobs in a POS just like you can in-station. I have four alt that run ten (10) invention jobs at a time using multiple labs, all running research, copies, and invention. Other alts do copies only (Research V) so those can stack also (much longer run times there tho).


By stacking, do you mean that you can queue it up so that it will do multiple invention jobs right after another? Similarly to how you can do 300 manufacturing runs, one right after another, 300 times, for instance?


Exactly. so you can stack up for 24h or so if you want, and use the other slots with alts. That way you only have sets jobs once a day.

And to make matters worse, you also want to build the T2 components yourself, so for 10 or 15 lines constantly running, you are looking at 4 or 5 alts working full time for that slots (including all activities).
Tadeo Musashy
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-05-14 07:19:07 UTC
LJ Hugz wrote:

... with only 40% success rate...


speaking of "devil": is there any "sign" we could get rid of this unreal, unresonable, unfair (and lots of other un*) and above all very annoying chance based invention system?

care about having POLLs available in forum threads? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=115634&find=unread
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
#7 - 2012-05-14 13:43:09 UTC
There is a rumour doing the rounds that CCP Soundwave wants to remove T2 production from high sec. If that comes about you won't need to worry about invention anymore anyway. Sad
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-05-14 14:20:44 UTC
what BPO takes 4 hours to max copy?

(forgive me, i only done this on ships before)

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-05-14 15:47:39 UTC
Tadeo Musashy wrote:
LJ Hugz wrote:

... with only 40% success rate...


speaking of "devil": is there any "sign" we could get rid of this unreal, unresonable, unfair (and lots of other un*) and above all very annoying chance based invention system?


Someone else looking for an Easy Button. Awesome. Maybe everyone should start out with 10 billion ISK and 100m SP, too...
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-05-14 15:49:10 UTC
Skippermonkey wrote:
what BPO takes 4 hours to max copy?

(forgive me, i only done this on ships before)


I personally have never run a max copy on a BPO that only took 4 hours. 4 days, 9 days, 15 days, sure. Try copying a Large rig BPO, and tell me how you can do it in 4 hours. ;-)
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#11 - 2012-05-14 16:07:10 UTC
Most module BPOs take 2.8 days in an Advanced Mobile Lab to make 20 copies @ 300 runs each. Drones are about 2.2 days in a AML for 20 copies. Some module BPOs take 5.6 days to copy.

AML multiplier is 0.65, regular mobile lab is 0.75 time multiplier, station slots are 1.00 multiplier.
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-05-14 17:38:44 UTC
Just a quick note for scale: Toon at Research V (no implants) using Adv Mobile Lab (.65 mult factor), a Nanomechanical Microprocessor component BPO takes 8 days, 11 hours, 7 minutes to make a SINGLE max run copy. That's SINGLE MAX-RUN copy. 20 copies? 169 days. ;-)
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#13 - 2012-05-14 18:05:11 UTC
Katja Faith wrote:
Just a quick note for scale: Toon at Research V (no implants) using Adv Mobile Lab (.65 mult factor), a Nanomechanical Microprocessor component BPO takes 8 days, 11 hours, 7 minutes to make a SINGLE max run copy. That's SINGLE MAX-RUN copy. 20 copies? 169 days. ;-)


Some of the T2 modules introduced in Crucible were also crazy like that (the T1 gang link copy times were such that a max-run BPC would take ~35 days or so for a single copy). We managed to convince CCP to change that before they introduced the T2 gang links.

(Not sure why you'd make BPCs of a Nanomechanical Microprocessor (or the other T2 component blueprints)... just buy another BPO and research it.)
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-05-14 18:49:53 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Katja Faith wrote:
Just a quick note for scale: Toon at Research V (no implants) using Adv Mobile Lab (.65 mult factor), a Nanomechanical Microprocessor component BPO takes 8 days, 11 hours, 7 minutes to make a SINGLE max run copy. That's SINGLE MAX-RUN copy. 20 copies? 169 days. ;-)


Some of the T2 modules introduced in Crucible were also crazy like that (the T1 gang link copy times were such that a max-run BPC would take ~35 days or so for a single copy). We managed to convince CCP to change that before they introduced the T2 gang links.

(Not sure why you'd make BPCs of a Nanomechanical Microprocessor (or the other T2 component blueprints)... just buy another BPO and research it.)


It was just an example. I stopped making copies of component BPOs after my first Thermonuclear Trigger copy. Oops
Tadeo Musashy
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-05-16 18:28:12 UTC
Katja Faith wrote:
Tadeo Musashy wrote:
LJ Hugz wrote:

... with only 40% success rate...


speaking of "devil": is there any "sign" we could get rid of this unreal, unresonable, unfair (and lots of other un*) and above all very annoying chance based invention system?


Someone else looking for an Easy Button. Awesome. Maybe everyone should start out with 10 billion ISK and 100m SP, too...


and someone else looking for a quick-troll - even a no reason one...
where does it stands i'd need a Easy Button? a non-chance based invention system wouldnt be (necesarlly) easier... it would be just non-chance based... i could elaborate here althought i have an odd feeling it would be useless as the "expert" allready talked her mind...
* no personal harm ment - its just a counter-troll

care about having POLLs available in forum threads? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=115634&find=unread
Tadeo Musashy
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-05-16 22:43:37 UTC
Celgar Thurn wrote:
There is a rumour doing the rounds that CCP Soundwave wants to remove T2 production from high sec. If that comes about you won't need to worry about invention anymore anyway. Sad


well... giving that a "deeper" thought here's what i think it would be even better: Evil how about removing the entire high security concept? maybe the same for low sec... Lol the "no need for" list could also be filled with every ships low slots, repair / tanking modules, ewar modules, rest of the industry... and so on: everything that doesnt involve dmg dealing, trigger happy frenzy must vanish... all that really counts, the ultimate goal over anything elseshould be, ofc, my allltime favourite, "brave" 10 VS 1 errr... wanted to say "fighting" but i think "bullying" works better...
back on topic: invention was always a substitute for the faulty (and guilty) T2 bpos lotery... therefore it's an ancient concept with old and thin roots and i must say poor implementation... "chance based" system sux not because it isnt cheaper or because it's complicated but for the simple reason that "luck" factor made it unrealistic unpredictable...
i'm not talking about a new invention system here but fixing the old one... it would be incredible easy, both gameplay-wise and progreamming-wise: tweaking datacores needed for speciffic jobs, balancing the completion timetables, even introducing a few more decryptor types would be a piece of cake - literarlly!!! cmon ccp: give invention some love... it would "cost" no more then 24 hrs for "developing" and it would bring a nice fresh touch for this long obsolete part of eve

care about having POLLs available in forum threads? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=115634&find=unread
Haulie Berry
#17 - 2012-05-16 22:50:02 UTC
Katja Faith wrote:
Tadeo Musashy wrote:
LJ Hugz wrote:

... with only 40% success rate...


speaking of "devil": is there any "sign" we could get rid of this unreal, unresonable, unfair (and lots of other un*) and above all very annoying chance based invention system?


Someone else looking for an Easy Button. Awesome. Maybe everyone should start out with 10 billion ISK and 100m SP, too...



As a long-time proponent of BPOs, I actually don't think the chance-based invention system adds anything of value to the game at all. The end result is that hobbyist inventors who are bad at math get a streak and undervalue their goods. This effect is minimal at the module level, but is precisely what makes larger invention jobs (like marauders and JFs) a waste of time.

They could EASILY remove the chance factor, adjust the time and material costs to compensate, and lose absolutely nothing of value.
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-05-20 07:21:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucy Ferrr
Celgar Thurn wrote:
There is a rumour doing the rounds that CCP Soundwave wants to remove T2 production from high sec. If that comes about you won't need to worry about invention anymore anyway. Sad


You assume the OP is a totally risk-adverse coward yourself. Plenty of people will be able to adapt if invention were ever moved out of High-sec (which is not happening). So please take your tears else where. Adapt or die, that is Eve. I am a high-sec manufacturer, if forced out of high-sec I'd move to low as would lots of other people. Only the bottom of the barrel would quit invention, you don't want to be part of that crowd.

Although I do wish invention/manufacturing would get a little CCP love. There is no need for it to be the click fest that it is.
beor oranes
Tranquility Tavern
Pandemic Horde
#19 - 2012-05-20 15:11:11 UTC
T2 invention is unfortunately a click fest but it can provide some good profit if you do it right. As for building your own comps; that will bring you more profit but it also will make extra work so you have to decide whether it is worth it, sometimes the margins on the comps are pretty small and the extra time it would take to build them can slow your production down so that you could have made more and made more profit if you had just bought the comps off the market. Do the maths and find out. Buy orders for your materials is also a good way to cut down your costs but that again can take time to fill.

Whether or not the chance based mechanism should be removed from Invention or whether it should be moved out of high-sec, is neither here nor there, at the moment it is how it is and if you want to do it now then you have to put up with how it is. I personally don't think it should be changed away from chance based as this mechanic can on occasion significantly increase your profit (and vice-versa drop it too). As for being moved out of high-sec; this would probably be a good thing for the producers as a fair few people would stop producing and profit's would hopefully go up, but I think there are other things within industry that need to be fixed before they change where invention can be done.