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Escort Carriers
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Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2012-05-17 18:57:43 UTC
Lianail Deninard wrote:

The drones lack of large amounts of repping capacity offsets the long range capability so it doesn't infringe too heavily on the role of the logistics cruiser. I was thinking of a 100% bonus per level. The same is true of the capacitor requirements. This is a carrier after all, not a rep ship. If this is for a BS fleet, and able to go where other capitals can't, then the repping should be on par with BS capabilities, not Capital ships.


Repping is NOT on par with capitals, the amount is on par, but it can't sustain that for even one whole minute without capital capacitor transfers from a cap ship. Read the balancing part about cap stability.

Lianail Deninard wrote:

This may belong in another discussion entirely, but instead of having remote repping bonuses, allow Internal repping capability. A docked ship can be repaired at the same rate as a capital repper. This would require the creation of a new subsystem or module unique to carriers.


What? Docking? I don't even want to talk about how bad an idea that is and a can of worms it would be.
How do they dock?
How long?
How many?
Whats the point?
Can they still be attacked?

In short, this idea is very very bad.

Lianail Deninard wrote:
So far, I see this listed with BS Skills. But with the kind of capabilities this thing is going to have, it's as far above a BS as a BC is above a cruiser. Use the same model. Give it the capabilities, but add a new "Subcapital" skill, just like "Battlecruiser" is separate from cruiser. BC isn't on the required path from Cruiser to BS. The same would be true with this.

Consider requiring the use of subsystems just like T3 cruisers. Perhaps allow the carrier subsystems?


DIdnt you see "racial escort carrier skill" on the OP? Did you READ the OP? I have my doubts.

As for a T3 system, why?
This is not meant to be a T3 ship, but a T1 ship of a sub capital combat ship.

Your posts (not only annoying in triple posting) lead me to believe that you simply didn't get what the original post was talking about since you seem to have no idea how these ships would be used.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2012-05-18 06:41:12 UTC
It seems that I am not getting any negative feedback at this point.

Can I take that as evidence that this is a good idea?
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2012-05-18 07:09:28 UTC
I think I would kill for a dev post in this thread...
HeavensGuard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#84 - 2012-05-18 07:47:05 UTC  |  Edited by: HeavensGuard
I've always wanted them to add more types of carriers/drone boats, I mean I know theres ships like the ishtar and dominix ect but they're pretty much just normal ships with big drone bays, I'd like to see ships with no turret or missile hardpoints, more dedicated drone ships, the escort carrier could be the "battleship" size carrier (does same damage as battleship, same tank) and I'd also like to see cruiser sized ones too...

You think you die and everything will be sugar and rainbows ?
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#85 - 2012-05-18 08:04:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Xhaiden Ora
Honestly, you've lost me on the idea now all things considered.

I would love a BS or even BC sized pure carrier . Something more akin to an actual aircraft carrier ( not an EVE carrier ). Something that specializes in drones and works through drones with bonuses to range, damage, rep or e-war drone use. With a generous amount of high and mid to fit utility modules to assist the fleet. Something that requires you to sit back and orchestrate combat or support. Lots of options for how and where to apply your resources at any given moment in a fight. But vunerable in a direct fight with a frontline combat ship such as another BS/BC.

Something more like a scaled up Arbitrator focused on fleet utility with emphasis on having to do its primary functions through drones.

I honestly don't care about capital ships nor ever want to fly one. I don't want nor need something to bridge me into capitals with capital specific abilities. Which is where all the contention seems to be coming from with this idea.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2012-05-18 15:41:13 UTC
Xhaiden Ora wrote:

I honestly don't care about capital ships nor ever want to fly one. I don't want nor need something to bridge me into capitals with capital specific abilities. Which is where all the contention seems to be coming from with this idea.


Actually all of the contention as far as I could see was with fighters or with questions regarding the right mix of logistics. Not anything about capitals.... unless you count capital reps, but that was more about the REPS than the CAPITAL part.

I understand you dont want bigger ships and that is fine, this is a bigger ship so it probably isnt what you are looking for and that is fine too.

Thanks for your input.
Zakuak
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#87 - 2012-05-18 20:01:02 UTC
Looking good now Loi...I support this.

Glad to see the fighters gone. I feel the EC should be that last stepping stone into caps and a nice drone bonus seems more on par with the progression. Good size, nice layout and well thought out.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2012-05-19 01:27:21 UTC
Zakuak wrote:
Looking good now Loi...I support this.

Glad to see the fighters gone. I feel the EC should be that last stepping stone into caps and a nice drone bonus seems more on par with the progression. Good size, nice layout and well thought out.


Thank you
TheButcherPete
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#89 - 2012-05-19 01:54:19 UTC
The bonuses of all the ships seem kinda the same, blah blah same ship, different model / texture.

[b]THE KING OF EVE RADIO

If EVE is real, does that mean all of us are RMTrs?[/b]
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2012-05-19 02:35:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Loius Woo
TheButcherPete wrote:
The bonuses of all the ships seem kinda the same, blah blah same ship, different model / texture.


What would you suggest?

I could see an additional bonus dependent on race (like ECM bonus for caldari, capacitor bonus for Amarr or something, perhaps even a bonus to specific types of drones for each race)

Or do you suggest changing the bonuses that are there now to make them different?

Please provide some input, I am willing to discuss.

Some possible bonuses that I can think of off the top of my head are:

Caldari:
15% per level to effectiveness of EWAR drones.

Amarr:
5% bonus to armor resists per level


Gallente:
15% per level to drone damage

Minmatar:
20% bonus to drone speed per level


Just brainstorming.
Bob Niac
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2012-05-19 02:44:18 UTC
been done to death.

racial orcas.


moving on.

[u]I <3 Logistics:[/u] Pilot of all  T2 logi and my shiny Archon [deceased.] Also a Chimera which may or may not be horrid. I don't make games, I play them. I get that ppl are passionate about change. I post here to plant seeds. You see your idea as is? Holy **** you win! So let's post, and see what the DEVs and our peers use.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2012-05-19 02:45:30 UTC
Bob Niac wrote:
been done to death.

racial orcas.


moving on.


I don't even know what this means.

What does this mean?
Vaako Horizon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#93 - 2012-05-19 06:31:24 UTC
Dkamanus wrote:
Jeez. Fighters, from my understanding, at a Roaming fleet, are useless. People want fighter, while the variety of drones ALONE should be the strong point of the Escort Carrier. Imagine, 10 Neut drones launched at a single target, or 10 ECM drones roaming around, causing havoc during a small fleet engagement. Its an Advantage that, most certainly, I wouldn't pass up.

The fact that it can use ten drones out is reason enough to have one. Be it rep, ECM, Neut, damage drones in whatever order. Fighters are useless in that regard, cause carriers aren't considered a solo ship. Well, at least in this case. There is no point in going solo with an escort carrier. There is no need for such amount of firepower the fighters provide. Considering they are giving drones an extra module + the modules we already have (which, I think, are quite underused), the Escort Carrier (Drone Boat) would make those modules usable in a way, add some firepower, add some extra utility and not being overpowered.

There is no need for fighters, but a big drone bay is needed for a Drone Boat to actually function.

Instead of Carriers, call em Swarmer Class Drone Boats or something. Just Call em Drone ships. Thats one class of ships that aren't implemented in the game to its fullest. Calling a Dominix a Drone Boat is as much truth as saying that Minmatar are exclusive Shield Tankers, like Caldari.


Hive ships? :D
Vaako Horizon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-05-19 06:39:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaako Horizon
Retmas wrote:
love the general idea. all the quibbles are valid points, i personally am on the fence about fighters. also, perhaps instead of +1 drone per level, perhaps instead you could consider 20% damage and hitpoints per level? also, you could keep the fighter and drone bays as a single bay, assuming you keep the drone space under 5000m3 (which you plan to based on what i've read).

expanding on that blurb a bit.

my general understanding of this, having read the thread, is basically an orca-sized ship (midway between capitals and battleships - an orca is neither, yet shares good qualities of both) that is a dedicated drone command/control platform. i find i fall on the mildly buffed large remote reps side of things, but i am far from convinced either way. i find the burst rep amount from capital reppers to be too much for such a ship; a boosted large would be far more appropriate. i also agree with a small range increase, but not one comperable to logi cruisers - about 26km sounds just perfect. enough to be used as a center pin in PvP (or PvE), but not enough to give full mobility to a gang, especially if the ship itself is roughly as slow as an orca.

while i dont believe that carriers would be pushed out of use by these at all (or removed from their niche or whatever the PC codeword is these days), i also am not convinced that fighters would be anything more than redundance. my vote, as of now, is to strip fighters from them, simply because drones would do it better in my eyes. i dont believe that having them assignable is really worthwhile, either from a PvP perspective (because, lol fighters) or a PvE one (because sentries would just be more effective, at least in anoms and the like.

beyond that, you guys seem to me to be running in circles, explaining the same things to one another time and again. agree to disagree, and then go quibble over something else imo.

thing's i'm curious about:

would these be allowed into gated deadspace? (i vote yes, based on orcas/freighters being allowed to do so)

can, in OP's eyes, they use capital local reps? (i vote yes regardless of which way the remote repairs discussion goes, but perhaps with some negs.)

would love to see some dev interest in this. i think it's a valuable way to expand the capital roster without making new LOLHOTDROP ships.


the "instead of +1" with 20% damage per lvl will still only put this ships dps at the same lvl as a domi ( not counting guns ) which we wanna try and top... 10x heavy drones + the 100% drone damage gives you roughly 900-950 dps which is not over the top ( this does not have the new module considered )
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#95 - 2012-05-19 07:53:06 UTC
Loius Woo wrote:
Actually all of the contention as far as I could see was with fighters or with questions regarding the right mix of logistics. Not anything about capitals.... unless you count capital reps, but that was more about the REPS than the CAPITAL part.

I understand you dont want bigger ships and that is fine, this is a bigger ship so it probably isnt what you are looking for and that is fine too.

Thanks for your input.


You have contention over fighters, capital reps and ship maint. bays.

I would perfer this lean more towards battleship, less towards capital. Many players will never see a capital, let alone fly one and many others have no interest in either. The current version of your idea doesn't have as much use outside of WH/Null pvp. Much as I hate to bring up the role thing on you, its role currently isn't that fleshed out for high sec or pve and you've slanted it towards supporting capital ships and capitals only.

When you put it in a BS gang, high sec or PVE, all its basically bringing to the table is moar drones. It has no real combat bonuses to these areas of play that would give a convincing reason to use it or bring it along with your gang over another ship.

It needs to have more universal usage and not be so tied to one ideal situation ( In a capital fleet ) that many players will likely never see.
Bob Niac
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2012-05-19 11:52:23 UTC
Loius Woo wrote:
Bob Niac wrote:
been done to death.

racial orcas.


moving on.


I don't even know what this means.

What does this mean?


It means that escort / mini / small carriers are basically orcas. The only difference is that they would be setup directly for combat use. And they would not have fighters, but drones. The likelihood of them having significant remote repair ability would be next to nothing.

Basically, mules. Or more accurately, Auxiliary Ships, like the refueling boats in our current navies.

[u]I <3 Logistics:[/u] Pilot of all  T2 logi and my shiny Archon [deceased.] Also a Chimera which may or may not be horrid. I don't make games, I play them. I get that ppl are passionate about change. I post here to plant seeds. You see your idea as is? Holy **** you win! So let's post, and see what the DEVs and our peers use.
Bob Niac
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2012-05-19 11:56:11 UTC
Vaako Horizon wrote:
Retmas wrote:
love the general idea. all the quibbles are valid points, i personally am on the fence about fighters. also, perhaps instead of +1 drone per level, perhaps instead you could consider 20% damage and hitpoints per level? also, you could keep the fighter and drone bays as a single bay, assuming you keep the drone space under 5000m3 (which you plan to based on what i've read).

expanding on that blurb a bit.

my general understanding of this, having read the thread, is basically an orca-sized ship (midway between capitals and battleships - an orca is neither, yet shares good qualities of both) that is a dedicated drone command/control platform. i find i fall on the mildly buffed large remote reps side of things, but i am far from convinced either way. i find the burst rep amount from capital reppers to be too much for such a ship; a boosted large would be far more appropriate. i also agree with a small range increase, but not one comperable to logi cruisers - about 26km sounds just perfect. enough to be used as a center pin in PvP (or PvE), but not enough to give full mobility to a gang, especially if the ship itself is roughly as slow as an orca.

while i dont believe that carriers would be pushed out of use by these at all (or removed from their niche or whatever the PC codeword is these days), i also am not convinced that fighters would be anything more than redundance. my vote, as of now, is to strip fighters from them, simply because drones would do it better in my eyes. i dont believe that having them assignable is really worthwhile, either from a PvP perspective (because, lol fighters) or a PvE one (because sentries would just be more effective, at least in anoms and the like.

beyond that, you guys seem to me to be running in circles, explaining the same things to one another time and again. agree to disagree, and then go quibble over something else imo.

thing's i'm curious about:

would these be allowed into gated deadspace? (i vote yes, based on orcas/freighters being allowed to do so)

can, in OP's eyes, they use capital local reps? (i vote yes regardless of which way the remote repairs discussion goes, but perhaps with some negs.)

would love to see some dev interest in this. i think it's a valuable way to expand the capital roster without making new LOLHOTDROP ships.


the "instead of +1" with 20% damage per lvl will still only put this ships dps at the same lvl as a domi ( not counting guns ) which we wanna try and top... 10x heavy drones + the 100% drone damage gives you roughly 900-950 dps which is not over the top ( this does not have the new module considered )


Well it used to be that one could field 15 drones in certain ships. Then lag happened.

[u]I <3 Logistics:[/u] Pilot of all  T2 logi and my shiny Archon [deceased.] Also a Chimera which may or may not be horrid. I don't make games, I play them. I get that ppl are passionate about change. I post here to plant seeds. You see your idea as is? Holy **** you win! So let's post, and see what the DEVs and our peers use.
Vaako Horizon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#98 - 2012-05-19 12:51:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaako Horizon
Bob Niac wrote:
Vaako Horizon wrote:
Retmas wrote:
love the general idea. all the quibbles are valid points, i personally am on the fence about fighters. also, perhaps instead of +1 drone per level, perhaps instead you could consider 20% damage and hitpoints per level? also, you could keep the fighter and drone bays as a single bay, assuming you keep the drone space under 5000m3 (which you plan to based on what i've read).

expanding on that blurb a bit.

my general understanding of this, having read the thread, is basically an orca-sized ship (midway between capitals and battleships - an orca is neither, yet shares good qualities of both) that is a dedicated drone command/control platform. i find i fall on the mildly buffed large remote reps side of things, but i am far from convinced either way. i find the burst rep amount from capital reppers to be too much for such a ship; a boosted large would be far more appropriate. i also agree with a small range increase, but not one comperable to logi cruisers - about 26km sounds just perfect. enough to be used as a center pin in PvP (or PvE), but not enough to give full mobility to a gang, especially if the ship itself is roughly as slow as an orca.

while i dont believe that carriers would be pushed out of use by these at all (or removed from their niche or whatever the PC codeword is these days), i also am not convinced that fighters would be anything more than redundance. my vote, as of now, is to strip fighters from them, simply because drones would do it better in my eyes. i dont believe that having them assignable is really worthwhile, either from a PvP perspective (because, lol fighters) or a PvE one (because sentries would just be more effective, at least in anoms and the like.

beyond that, you guys seem to me to be running in circles, explaining the same things to one another time and again. agree to disagree, and then go quibble over something else imo.

thing's i'm curious about:

would these be allowed into gated deadspace? (i vote yes, based on orcas/freighters being allowed to do so)

can, in OP's eyes, they use capital local reps? (i vote yes regardless of which way the remote repairs discussion goes, but perhaps with some negs.)

would love to see some dev interest in this. i think it's a valuable way to expand the capital roster without making new LOLHOTDROP ships.


the "instead of +1" with 20% damage per lvl will still only put this ships dps at the same lvl as a domi ( not counting guns ) which we wanna try and top... 10x heavy drones + the 100% drone damage gives you roughly 900-950 dps which is not over the top ( this does not have the new module considered )


Well it used to be that one could field 15 drones in certain ships. Then lag happened.


with meny lag fixes behind us and such that argument is somewhat outdated... in addition, its not like everyone will be flying these ones.
worst case they reitarate on it if it goes to bad... or, make the bonus 50% per lvl and skip the +1 drone per lvl but that feels like a mistake ( 1125 to 1200 dps without the new module )
Daria Meridian Carlile
Necromatic Inc.
#99 - 2012-05-23 15:40:59 UTC
Bumping for the pure greatness of the idea.

I would love to see a ship which is to the Orca, what a Carrier is to a Rorqual.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#100 - 2012-05-23 15:43:26 UTC
Daria Meridian Carlile wrote:
Bumping for the pure greatness of the idea.

I would love to see a ship which is to the Orca, what a Carrier is to a Rorqual.


Thanks!

And I assume you mean a ship that is to the CARRIER what the Orca is to the Rorq.

Agreed, and that was part of the impetus for this idea in the first place.

Thanks for your support.