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Escort Carriers
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Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2012-05-16 19:47:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Loius Woo
Front page edited to reflect input from everyone.

Fighters removed
Drone bay expanded.
Logistics buff to Capital remote rep range 15% per level.

I also explained the balancing of the capacitor and the repair modules a bit more in detail on the front page so as to avoid confusion.

I am still open to further iterations on the idea, just please keep the criticism constructive.
Retmas
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#62 - 2012-05-16 20:55:57 UTC
Loius Woo wrote:
Retmas wrote:
first off, general response: i think you're thinking of these in a bit smaller terms than i am. you're thinking of them being effectively battleships. i disagree with that - this ship feels to me to be a touch smaller than an orca, if you understand my meaning. so, you'd need capital legos to build the thing, but you could also afford to enlarge it slightly - not a carrier's capacitor and HPs of course, but something comperable to a freighter or orca's HP values. see where i'm going with this?

as for large fights in nullsec, if you're familiar with the PL fleet doctrine they call "slowcats", that should answer your question right there, although i dont see why they would alter it to a smaller ship class in their specific case. a TL:DR as i understand it for slowcats: patheon RR carriers (not triage, in other words) that have sentries stuffed full in their drone bays. launch, assist to target popper, recieve 13k alpha every 4 seconds in whatever flavor you choose. regardless, if you make this orca sized, you wont see it in nano roams, but the possibility of keeping a wing, or even a doctrine of these in a state of readiness for an alliance is signifigant, especially for home defense fleets. their ability to put damage down on many different sizes of ships, balanced by their material cost and slowness, would serve particularly well there imo.

i like your explanation of large local v. capital remote. i'm still not sold on the capital remotes, but i respect why you came to that descision.

i'd like to again highlight the 20% damage/HP per level versus the +1 drone per level. i think that'd be all the buff you need to make them viable - fighters unfortunately would not be viable in a combat situation in null that i can think of. i think it best that they be scrapped - it's still a carrier in the fact that it's a drone dedicated platform capable of launching more than the usual 5. (guardian-vexors not included, of course.)


I like how you structured your argument against fighters and as such I am willing to scrap the fighter argument unless someone smarter about carrier tactics than me can make the argument on more than aesthetics.

As for the drones, I feel it is a good idea to have 10 without the damage buff rather than 5 with a damage buff. This would allow them to field otherwise less fielded drones in certain circumstances that don't benefit from a damage buff (like ECM, Target painter, web, etc).

As for the sizing question with Orcas, I should point out that the shield and armor HPs of these are BETTER in most cases than the ORCA and the orca's only thing is structure (which is roughly 4X that of these) but since that can't be active tanked, it makes the overall tank ability about the same.

I should point out that the concept art that i stole from deviant art (but gave credit to the artist) has some dimensions that I think are too small. The concept art dimensions are that of a BS, I think these should be more like 1200-1500m long give or take. Their masses and such on the stats I posted are more in keeping with general scale (2X a battleship size) of an Orca.

EDIT: if just drones, then I would amend the stats of these ships to remove the fighter bay and increase the drone bay from 525 to 650 (to allow 10 heavy, 10 sentry, 10 med, 10 light drones in bay at once). Does it need to be more than that?


re: size, wasnt sure we were on the same page. now i am. o7

as for the drone bay, that sounds perfect.

now all we need is a blue post. -starts flagging down devs-
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#63 - 2012-05-16 23:10:26 UTC
Loius Woo wrote:
Front page edited to reflect input from everyone.

Fighters removed
Drone bay expanded.
Logistics buff to Capital remote rep range 15% per level.

I also explained the balancing of the capacitor and the repair modules a bit more in detail on the front page so as to avoid confusion.

I am still open to further iterations on the idea, just please keep the criticism constructive.

Much closer to something that could be implemented than the original design.

Starting to look like something that could be fun to fly without being OP, also.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Myrkala
Royal Robot Ponies
#64 - 2012-05-17 04:36:13 UTC
One thing that is potentially a very powerful mechanic is if this ship enables you to refit, it would make BS gangs more versatile because they could refit in haste to adapt to a incoming or foreseeable situation, or even during fights. Think a bit about this, its a ship that can travel through gates and you can use it to refit...

So... ship fitting service? Would be a very nice option for WH dwellers too. Build price should be equivalent to an Orca or higher.

I can see how this ship could be nice for some doctrines, but as soon as you need mobility you are kind of miffed, then again most BS gangs are not very mobile.

This paired with the "warp 100km forward" module the devs are considering might be interesting...
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#65 - 2012-05-17 05:39:15 UTC
I don't always fly a battleship.

But when I do it'll be an escort carrier.
Retmas
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#66 - 2012-05-17 07:19:31 UTC
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
I don't always fly a battleship.

But when I do it'll be an escort carrier.


your statement is invalid, this will be a capital ship on par with an orca or freighter. only, yknow, with teeth.

as for refitting services, that's a very touchy thing to play with. it's a good idea, but by the same tolken i also see vast potential for misuse and general shenannigans that would make these ships more powerful (being a virtual requirement for large fleets so as to refit tanks quickly) than they really ought to be. they should be an option, not a requirement, see?
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#67 - 2012-05-17 07:51:11 UTC
Retmas wrote:
your statement is invalid, this will be a capital ship on par with an orca or freighter. only, yknow, with teeth.


Seeing as battleship size/hull was tossed around in the first thread and is kicked around every second sentence here and battleship 4 is the main training hurdle. Thought we'd talked it down from a bigger ass capital carrier. In fact I thought that was the original point, wasn't it? >.>
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#68 - 2012-05-17 09:05:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
Double post removed.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#69 - 2012-05-17 09:07:10 UTC
Loius Woo wrote:
Front page edited to reflect input from everyone.

Fighters removed
Drone bay expanded.
Logistics buff to Capital remote rep range 15% per level.

I also explained the balancing of the capacitor and the repair modules a bit more in detail on the front page so as to avoid confusion.

I am still open to further iterations on the idea, just please keep the criticism constructive.


After reading this, my support for this iteration took a nose dive.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2012-05-17 13:27:50 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Loius Woo wrote:
Front page edited to reflect input from everyone.

Fighters removed
Drone bay expanded.
Logistics buff to Capital remote rep range 15% per level.

I also explained the balancing of the capacitor and the repair modules a bit more in detail on the front page so as to avoid confusion.

I am still open to further iterations on the idea, just please keep the criticism constructive.


After reading this, my support for this iteration took a nose dive.


Please explain,
The idea is still undergoing evolution and so things are open to debate.

Though, after these changes, the general support for them has gone up so..be compelling.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2012-05-17 13:29:25 UTC
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
Retmas wrote:
your statement is invalid, this will be a capital ship on par with an orca or freighter. only, yknow, with teeth.


Seeing as battleship size/hull was tossed around in the first thread and is kicked around every second sentence here and battleship 4 is the main training hurdle. Thought we'd talked it down from a bigger ass capital carrier. In fact I thought that was the original point, wasn't it? >.>





They are like large battleships in a sense, they are also capitals in a sense.

They don't require capital ships skill, but they are the size or Orcas and require Advanced Spaceship Command (Like capitals and freighters).

They are designed to be used in conjunction with BS gangs.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2012-05-17 13:31:58 UTC
Myrkala wrote:
One thing that is potentially a very powerful mechanic is if this ship enables you to refit, it would make BS gangs more versatile because they could refit in haste to adapt to a incoming or foreseeable situation, or even during fights. Think a bit about this, its a ship that can travel through gates and you can use it to refit...

So... ship fitting service? Would be a very nice option for WH dwellers too. Build price should be equivalent to an Orca or higher.

I can see how this ship could be nice for some doctrines, but as soon as you need mobility you are kind of miffed, then again most BS gangs are not very mobile.

This paired with the "warp 100km forward" module the devs are considering might be interesting...


They have ship maintenance bays... So yes, they have fitting service. But the ship bay and corp hanger are 25% the size of a carrier so there is not a TON of room for swapping out, but I see your point that it makes a BS gang a bit more versatile....working as intended.

Agreed that the warp 100km could make for some interesting doctrines.
mama guru
Yazatas.
#73 - 2012-05-17 15:57:17 UTC
We've been over this.


We don't need escort carriers we need our normal carriers to be cheaper and have their roles more clrearly defined.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Sentinel zx
#74 - 2012-05-17 16:07:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentinel zx
deleteBig smile
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2012-05-17 16:22:26 UTC
mama guru wrote:
We've been over this.


We don't need escort carriers we need our normal carriers to be cheaper and have their roles more clrearly defined.



Have we? Have we really been over this?

Cause I haven't seen you post in either this forum thread or my other one (linked on OP) and I scanned your posting history and don't see any posts in any thread that deals with this idea specifically.

So, please reread the original post where I said specifically that this is NOT a "fix capitals" thread, it is a NEW ship class idea thread.

If you feel that way about carriers, I suggest you start new thread, title it "Lets fix carriers" and post your idea. I will even read it and provide feedback if I can. Until you CONTRIBUTE to the conversation, you can't just pop in, say what you just said and pop out. Thats not how discourse works.
Lianail Deninard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2012-05-17 16:28:28 UTC
I definitely love the idea. However, I'm not into the bonuses to the reppers. It's a carrier. Give the bonuses to rep drones!

  Reward law abiding citizens. We should never promote sociopathic behavior as a primary mode of interaction.  There are reasons for Good people to fight, such as defending innocents from the sociopaths.  Encourage people to become heros, not villians.   If you agree with an idea, [u]Like[/u] it.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2012-05-17 16:32:14 UTC
Lianail Deninard wrote:
I definitely love the idea. However, I'm not into the bonuses to the reppers. It's a carrier. Give the bonuses to rep drones!


In order to have the same repair amount as ONE capital repairer, the bonus would have to be 1000% (10X) the rep amount of tech II repair drones.

Not to mention, then this would be encroaching on the territory of logistics cruisers (long range rep)

Also, you would be able to repair completely free of worries about capacitor.

So in summary, I think that this is a terrible idea.

Use of logistics drones would have its place, but they cannot take the place of capital reppers in this instance, it just doesn't work.
Lianail Deninard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2012-05-17 16:45:53 UTC
Loius Woo wrote:

In order to have the same repair amount as ONE capital repairer, the bonus would have to be 1000% (10X) the rep amount of tech II repair drones.

Not to mention, then this would be encroaching on the territory of logistics cruisers (long range rep)

Also, you would be able to repair completely free of worries about capacitor.

So in summary, I think that this is a terrible idea.

Use of logistics drones would have its place, but they cannot take the place of capital reppers in this instance, it just doesn't work.



The drones lack of large amounts of repping capacity offsets the long range capability so it doesn't infringe too heavily on the role of the logistics cruiser. I was thinking of a 100% bonus per level. The same is true of the capacitor requirements. This is a carrier after all, not a rep ship. If this is for a BS fleet, and able to go where other capitals can't, then the repping should be on par with BS capabilities, not Capital ships.

  Reward law abiding citizens. We should never promote sociopathic behavior as a primary mode of interaction.  There are reasons for Good people to fight, such as defending innocents from the sociopaths.  Encourage people to become heros, not villians.   If you agree with an idea, [u]Like[/u] it.
Lianail Deninard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2012-05-17 16:55:01 UTC
This may belong in another discussion entirely, but instead of having remote repping bonuses, allow Internal repping capability. A docked ship can be repaired at the same rate as a capital repper. This would require the creation of a new subsystem or module unique to carriers.

  Reward law abiding citizens. We should never promote sociopathic behavior as a primary mode of interaction.  There are reasons for Good people to fight, such as defending innocents from the sociopaths.  Encourage people to become heros, not villians.   If you agree with an idea, [u]Like[/u] it.
Lianail Deninard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2012-05-17 17:12:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Lianail Deninard
Two more options to consider. I hope these weren't in the original thread you replaced with this one.

So far, I see this listed with BS Skills. But with the kind of capabilities this thing is going to have, it's as far above a BS as a BC is above a cruiser. Use the same model. Give it the capabilities, but add a new "Subcapital" skill, just like "Battlecruiser" is separate from cruiser. BC isn't on the required path from Cruiser to BS. The same would be true with this.

Consider requiring the use of subsystems just like T3 cruisers. Perhaps allow the carrier subsystems?

  Reward law abiding citizens. We should never promote sociopathic behavior as a primary mode of interaction.  There are reasons for Good people to fight, such as defending innocents from the sociopaths.  Encourage people to become heros, not villians.   If you agree with an idea, [u]Like[/u] it.