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Fix the TiDi please
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TWHC Assistant
#41 - 2012-05-13 07:09:41 UTC  |  Edited by: TWHC Assistant
Tippia wrote:
It does not “create artifical lag” (fine-grained or otherwise). It ensures that the lag that already exists doesn't make server calls get lost in the processing queue by slowing down how quickly they can enter that queue.

What causes the lag? It is too many clients sending too many request to a node. So clients are being slowed down. The lag is moved artificially onto the clients and the clients cannot send as many requests as before. It is an artificially created lag on the clients or else these would continue to send requests at the same speed.

Tippia wrote:
No, it's an actual improvement, and not a warning system. It ensures that high lag doesn't immediately cause people to get lost in the server processing.

No. It does not eliminate the problem, it stretches it out. The time dilation is indicated to the players. If they keep moving onto the node and keep sending request will TiDi get stronger. So yes it is a warning system. Fine by me if you want to call it an improvement since it is only an opinion. I however see as a work-around and not as a proper solution, which would be to use more CPU power and more code optimizations to allow for more clients.

Tippia wrote:
…which isn't the same thing as lag. Quite the opposite. Lag means it takes longer for things to repond, or maybe ...

Does your client not take longer to respond when TiDi is active? I think it does.

Tippia wrote:
There's also no way to tell if one supposedly low-load system will suddenly go into high-gear because someone chooses to do something particularly spectacular there.

But when you do know that some systems are frequently visited should this be taken into account. Do you disagree?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#42 - 2012-05-13 07:27:18 UTC
TWHC Assistant wrote:
What causes the lag? It is too many clients sending too many request to a node. So clients are being slowed down. The lag is moved artificially onto the clients
Oh dear. No. The lag is not ”moved” — the clients are not lagging more just because there's TiDi. They are actually most of the time responding much more quickly than before (and much more reliably). The lag is simply allowed to be applied equally to everyone by ensuring that the server is given ample time to handle the requests.

Quote:
No. It does not eliminate the problem, it stretches it out.
…like I said, an improvement, not a warning system. And it does indeed eliminate the problem of players getting lost in the processing (which is what caused the old black-screen and unresponsiveness issues in high lag situations). It doesn't warn about anything — it just informs how much slower the simulation timer is ticking than usual. It's not a warning system for the same reason the speedometer in your car isn't a warning system: because all it does is tell you the speed you're running.

Quote:
Does your client not take longer to respond when TiDi is active? I think it does.
Compared to how long it would take without TiDi? No. Quite a bit faster, since my commands are being processed in a timely manner rather than getting lost in the grey mush of lagged server calls.

Quote:
But when you do know that some systems are frequently visited should this be taken into account. Do you disagree?
For one, how do you know they aren't? For another, how will they use that information? To cluster the high-traffic systems together on a single node so there's a bigger chance of congestion? To cluster higher-traffic systems with low-traffic systems so that a spike in the low-traffic system congests the higher-traffic one? Again: it's a dynamic environment. You cannot plan what load will hit the node.
TWHC Assistant
#43 - 2012-05-13 07:37:07 UTC  |  Edited by: TWHC Assistant
Tippia wrote:
The lag is not ”moved” — the clients are not lagging more just because there's TiDi. They are actually most of the time responding much more quickly than before ...

Yes, the clients do slow down and everything you do.

Tippia wrote:
…like I said, an improvement, not a warning system.

As I said, call it what you like. I call it a warning system. Its colour then goes from green to yellow to red. Looks pretty much like a warning system to me. Is this a problem for you?

Tippia wrote:
Compared to how long it would take without TiDi?

No. Compared to no lag.

Tippia wrote:
For one, how do you know they aren't? For another, how will they use that information?

The question was, do you disagree? Yes or no?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#44 - 2012-05-13 07:40:45 UTC
TWHC Assistant wrote:
Yes, the clients do slow down and everything you do.
…which isn't lag. It's slow-motion.

Quote:
As I said, call it what you like.
I call it a time-keeping device. It doesn't warn anyone of anything since there is nothing in it that indicates that there's any kind of problem.

Quote:
No. Compared to no lag.
…in other words, compared to how long it would take without TiDi. Yes, with TiDi, the client responds more quickly.

Quote:
The question was, do you disagree? Yes or no?
And I answered: it makes no difference in a dynamic environment.
TWHC Assistant
#45 - 2012-05-13 07:53:35 UTC  |  Edited by: TWHC Assistant
Tippia wrote:
…which isn't lag. It's slow-motion.

Then, again, call it what you like.

Tippia wrote:
I call it a time-keeping device. It doesn't warn anyone of anything since there is nothing in it that indicates that there's any kind of problem.

You should read again what you wrote there.

Tippia wrote:
…in other words, compared to how long it would take without TiDi. Yes, with TiDi, the client responds more quickly.

The clients do not lag at all, with or without TiDi. As I said is it only an artificial lag, which is created on the client side. It is the node that fails to respond to the many clients.

Tippia wrote:
And I answered: it makes no difference in a dynamic environment.

Come on, you can do it: yes or no?? Should CCP include information as how often systems are being visited into their planning or should they not?
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-05-13 07:55:52 UTC
One way to solve this would be somekind of assist module for these nullsec puppies. For me this looks like they don't know how to play this game so they always need 1000+ ships to do simple stuff.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#47 - 2012-05-13 08:02:40 UTC
TWHC Assistant wrote:
Then, again, call it what you like.
Slow-motion isn't lag.

Tippia wrote:
You should read again what you wrote there.
Ok. Now what? There is still nothing about the TiDi meter that shows that something is going wrong.

Tippia wrote:
The clients do not lag at all, with or without TiDi. As I said is it only an artificial lag, which is created on the client side. It is the node that fails to respond to the many clients.
Make up your mind. Does it create lag or not? Oh, and no, it's not just client-side and it's not lag. It's a slowing-down of time, which is worlds apart from unresponsiveness. The effect is pretty much the exact opposite.

Tippia wrote:
Come on, you can do it: yes or no?
I can and I did: it makes no difference in a dynamic environment. Your false dichotomy doesn't stop being false just because you repeat it.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#48 - 2012-05-13 08:06:30 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
One way to solve this would be somekind of assist module for these nullsec puppies. For me this looks like they don't know how to play this game so they always need 1000+ ships to do simple stuff.


The "assist module" you refer to already exists; it's called "bring friends".

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-05-13 08:14:04 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
The "assist module" you refer to already exists; it's called "bring friends".


20 friends and their alts.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#50 - 2012-05-13 08:15:44 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
The "assist module" you refer to already exists; it's called "bring friends".


20 friends and their alts.


I'm interested to know what concept of assist module would work when the other guys bring 1000 friends?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
TWHC Assistant
#51 - 2012-05-13 08:15:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Slow-motion isn't lag.

Ask others and see what they say.

Tippia wrote:
Ok. Now what? There is still nothing about the TiDi meter that shows that something is going wrong.

As I said does TiDi bear a danger. People might think they should just keep entering a system with TiDi, instead of taking notice of the warning they are being given and to avoid pushing TiDi to its limit. TiDi cannot eliminate lag. It stretches it out and gives players time to respond before they hit the limit. When you tell people that nothing is wrong then guess what they will do

Tippia wrote:
TWHC Assistant wrote:
Come on, you can do it: yes or no?
I can and I did: it makes no difference in a dynamic environment. Your false dichotomy doesn't stop being false just because you repeat it.

There is nothing shameful about agree with me, Tippia.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2012-05-13 08:17:41 UTC
TWHC Assistant wrote:
The clients do not lag at all, with or without TiDi. As I said is it only an artificial lag, which is created on the client side. It is the node that fails to respond to the many clients.

Do you have any idea what "lag" actually is?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#53 - 2012-05-13 08:18:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
TWHC Assistant wrote:
Ask others and see what they say.
They will say that slow-motion isn't lag. Or did you think that The Matrix was an unusually laggy film?

Quote:
As I said does TiDi bear a danger. People might think they should just keep entering a system with TiDi, instead of taking notice of the warning they are being given and to avoid pushing TiDi to its limit.
What warning is that? All TiDi does in terms of showing stuff is say how slowly time is running.

Quote:
There is nothing shameful about agree with me, Tippia.
Good thing that I don't have to worry about that, then. The answer remains the same: it makes no difference in a dynamic environment. If you had bothered to answer my questions, you would understand why.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2012-05-13 08:19:11 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I'm interested to know what concept of assist module would work when the other guys bring 1000 friends?


No, they are also ~20 RL friends and run 1000+ clients.
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#55 - 2012-05-13 08:20:52 UTC
Gorenaire wrote:
Shpenat wrote:


There is nothing CCP can do about this situation right now. There is no code to allow node loading on the fly. To move the systems to different nodes they would have to take down the entire cluster. That is not an option.



Well if TiDi is supposed to solve lag problem in a system due to lots of people in it and it creates tons of lag in a dozen others systems, what kind of solution is that ?


Considering that previously you would have jumped in and black screened, it's certainly a step up.
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#56 - 2012-05-13 08:23:05 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
One way to solve this would be somekind of assist module for these nullsec puppies. For me this looks like they don't know how to play this game so they always need 1000+ ships to do simple stuff.


You might not realise it but huge fleet fights are fun, and they bring in new players who love the idea of warfare on that scale.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2012-05-13 08:26:15 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
You might not realise it but huge fleet fights are fun, and they bring in new players who love the idea of warfare on that scale.


But if it's only 20vs20 in reality. But yeah, works if new players don't know what alt means.
TWHC Assistant
#58 - 2012-05-13 08:29:11 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Do you have any idea what "lag" actually is?

Yes. I already described it above. It is when too many clients are making too many requests to a node. Your PC is not too slow, the node is.

Tippia wrote:
They will say that slow-motion isn't lag.

Typical narcissist...

Tippia wrote:
What warning is that? All TiDi does in terms of showing stuff is say how slowly time is running.

Who likes to play when everything slows down?

Tippia wrote:
TWHC Assistant wrote:
There is nothing shameful about agree with me, Tippia.
Good thing that I don't have to worry about that, then.

I believe this is your problem - agreeing with someone else over something. All I want from you is a yes or a no.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2012-05-13 08:34:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
TWHC Assistant wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Do you have any idea what "lag" actually is?

Yes. I already described it above. It is when too many clients are making too many requests to a node. Your PC is not too slow, the node is.

Nope. That's not lag. Lag is a delay in response from you press a button till it does something. Before tidi, that used to happen, or the node used to get so backlogged that it didn't even lag, it lagged out, i.e. requests went over a 8 or 10 minute timer and was just forgotten about. What we have now, is a graceful degradation so that it doesn't lag at all.

Moving in slow motion isn't lag. That's moving in slow motion.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-05-13 08:37:29 UTC
How it isn't lag in this game if you complain about lag in Call of Duty if something similar slowness happens?