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Major Research Nerf - A call to arms!
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Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
#1 - 2012-05-10 22:22:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Wyke Mossari
The faction warfare buff penultimate section titled "Research agents and datacore changes" is a massive nerf on researchers & inventors.

Research is not passive income, anybody that maximises their out come spends a significant amount of time training, grinding standing and even just flying around to collect them.
Researchers will receive far fewer datacores from their R&D agents.
Research Project Management a 40M rank 8 skill with one purpose will become largely redundant.
Those science skills trained to level 4/5 will be redundant, you generally only need level 1-3 to build most T2 stuff.
Datacore prices will increase sharply making invention more expensive and even less competitive against T2 BPO.

Mining with guns is being removed because it is bad but this change introduces Researching with guns.

Researchers need to make their voice heard by CCP against this nerf.
blood hauler
The Art of War
#2 - 2012-05-10 23:05:21 UTC
the bigger problem with the datacore changes is how they spit the cores up between the races, If enough people change over to fw (which i don't think will happen anyway) then i hope alot of them choose Minmatar as they will be the race to get Mechanical Engineering from (or what you need for every gun and ship to invent)

What i though they was going to do was allow any one to take any datacore apart from the race one which was going to be fw based, whats happened is some races are worth more than others.

And i not sure they have addressed the problems with fw, just they normal boost the rewards and hope things go away
Haffsol
#3 - 2012-05-10 23:39:47 UTC
if we will massively take our arms against these new changes, CCP will nerf arms
Haulie Berry
#4 - 2012-05-10 23:49:28 UTC
Wyke Mossari wrote:
The faction warfare buff penultimate section titled "Research agents and datacore changes" is a massive nerf on researchers & inventors.

Researchers will receive far fewer datacores from their R&D agents.


Meh.

Quote:
Research Project Management a 40M rank 8 skill with one purpose will become largely redundant.


This is probably the only valid complaint, really.


Quote:
Datacore prices will increase sharply making invention more expensive and even less competitive against T2 BPO.


This part is sheer nonsense. They may, in fact, become significantly cheaper, depending on the pricing structure. Even if they do get more expensive, that cost will simply be passed on to the consumer. You're already not competing against BPOs in most markets (despite what you may believe) so that's a complete non-concern.

Conceptually, I don't like the change because there is no logical reason manufacturing should be tied to faction war. It's completely arbitrary and nonsensical. That aside, the sky is not falling.
zoni Ishikela
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-05-10 23:52:06 UTC  |  Edited by: zoni Ishikela
I was thinking that the 10K purchase isk per core should really be a tax if you sell the datacore, not if you use it for your own invention. This may help a bit with regards to the passive income generator CCP has taken a position against (not a bad thing really), and be a bit more equitable to those of us actually using the datacores for production rather than as an afk isk fest.

Z.
Haulie Berry
#6 - 2012-05-11 00:03:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Current pricing on Sisi is 250K + 250LP per 5. So, 50K and 50LP per datacore. Tempest fleets are 250K LP and 20 mil, they sell in Jita for 450 million. That's 430,000,000/250,000 = 1720 isk per LP. Assuming that carries (which is a bold assumption, but I don't care enough to figure out an average LP value right now) that translates to a base cost of 136K per datacore.

Mechanical Engineering datacores currently sit at 319K in Jita. If that price held, ME datacores would yield 5380 isk per LP. Also, unless I missed something, they are drastically increasing the LP output of FW, which will drive down prices.

Yeah, color me unconcerned about datacore prices.
Salo Aldeland
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-05-11 00:27:45 UTC
Only real question is how capable the new scheme will be at meeting demand. I wonder how many data cores faction warriors would be able to generate if 100% of the LP earned today got cashed in. Anybody know where to start working that out? Maybe a rough correlation could be made by averaging out the number of LP it would take to purchase all the FW items traded on market and contracts.
Vince Snetterton
#8 - 2012-05-11 00:40:00 UTC
Geez OP, where have you been?
I have been beating this drum for 6 weeks.

BTW, Soundwave has stated this is only the 1st phase of the eradication of the existing datacore mechanic.
He will eliminate it entirely, as part of the removal of T2 mfg from high sec.

You can dig that quote up from him. He has made it in the past week.
Haulie Berry
#9 - 2012-05-11 00:48:48 UTC
Salo Aldeland wrote:
Only real question is how capable the new scheme will be at meeting demand. I wonder how many data cores faction warriors would be able to generate if 100% of the LP earned today got cashed in. Anybody know where to start working that out? Maybe a rough correlation could be made by averaging out the number of LP it would take to purchase all the FW items traded on market and contracts.


Well, the payout for a minor FW site is 10,000 LP under the new system.

At current datacore prices, that would be 53.6 million in datacores for doing one site. They take what, like, 20 minutes to capture?

That's a very substantial payout for not a lot of effort, and that's not even counting the LPs earned from killing other players.

From the dev blog:

Destroying an Abaddon fitted with tech 2 mods: gained LP = ( 196m ISK – 161m ISK + 46m ISK + 0 ) / 10000 = 8100 LP (previous system would have paid 500 LP)
Destroying a Machariel fitted with tech 2 mods: gained LP = (1.170m ISK – 95m ISK + 40m ISK + 0 ) / 10000 = 111500 LP (previous system would have paid 750 LP)
Destroying a Providence with 1 b full of cargo: gained LP = (1115m ISK – 839m ISK + 0 + 1000m ISK ) / 10000 = 127600 LP (previous system would have paid 2000 LP)
Destroying a Punisher with tech 1 fitting: gained LP = (450k ISK – 312k ISK + 100k ISK + 0) / 10000 = around 24 LP (previous system would have paid 25 LP)
Destroying a Punisher with tech 2 fitting: gained LP = (450k ISK – 312k ISK + 7.8m ISK +) / 10000 = around 794 LP (previous system would have paid 25 LP)
Conspicuous Forums-Alt
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-05-11 05:28:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Conspicuous Forums-Alt
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.


At least your previous suggestions of moving a large portion of data core production to exploration made sense. This change sounds an awful lot like you ran the hat around for ideas on boosting the attractiveness of Faction Warfare, and data core production by blowing up militia ships happened to make it into the cut.

Do you really want people engaging in Faction Warfare simply because it is a better income than level 4 missions or Incursions? What do the current FW community feel about having their numbers bolstered with mercenaries?

Mining with guns, all over again.


Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?

We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.


from http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1230077#post1230077

as Always, soundwave making this very big announcements in the most hidden places, like official announcement of drone poo nerf being done in a Ton Ten Hammer interview instead of fanfest, that was running simultaneously.


Seriously, moving t2 manufacture out of high sec, effectevely blocking more than 80% of Eve population from doing it (not sure the exact number, but i think the number is accurate enough from The eve economist talk at fanfest). Brilliant!

Not too mention the Datacore move came from soundawave geting bored of having datacore alts (as per his own admission at the FW panel at fanfest). And doing another thing because it would be "cool". lessons learned as much as missions accomplished.
Ersteen Hofs
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-05-11 09:05:01 UTC
Wyke Mossari wrote:
The faction warfare buff
Those science skills trained to level 4/5 will be redundant, you generally only need level 1-3 to build T2 stuff.

no they are required at 4 for building of many t2 items plus you get better invention chance which will matter even more with higher datacore prices.
Quote:

Datacore prices will increase sharply making invention more expensive and even less competitive against T2 BPO.

then man up and stop producing until t2 item pricess raise enough to compensate. too bad it won't work because even if some producers stop, lots of mimaf idiots will still flood the market at prior prices but it will raise eventually, maybe in several months or so. or not. t2 margins are rather high atm so they could as well get much thinner while still remaining lucrative for some people.
Quote:

We need to make our voice heard against this nerf.

you can make your voice heard all you want, this won't change the fact that nobody cares.

this is a game, just quit if you don't like it any longer. this is the only way to show them that they are wrong in your opinion. and even then they'll only notice this in unlikely scenario where lots of players quit that way. which is unlikely because majority of high sec carebears are running incursions rather than doing industrial stuff.
clixor
Celluloid Gurus
#12 - 2012-05-11 09:26:58 UTC
Wyke Mossari wrote:

Those science skills trained to level 4/5 will be redundant, you generally only need level 1-3 to build T2 stuff.
Datacore prices will increase sharply making invention more expensive and even less competitive against T2 BPO.


The science skills are NOT redundent, as an hi-end inventor you want them on 5 anyway to maximize invention results.

RPM5 is also not redundent, although you get less cores, you still get that one extra agent (for the time being) compared to L4.

Core prices ofcourse are uncertain. Before patchday, loads of people will convert their RP. Expect a lot of cores to flood the market keeping prices down. Now, the question ofcourse is, will FW supply compensate for the reduced agent supply when stockpiles run out?

I have my doubts, there are only a limited amount of players involved in FW, and i really doubt that FW will see a significant increase of players as it competes directly with other PVP activities. And there is the nature of LP dynamics, the most profitable items in shop will change frequently, making DC supply from FW unstable.

btw. mech cores are being manipulated atm (or speculated with, depends how you define it :)).
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#13 - 2012-05-11 10:24:29 UTC
blood hauler wrote:
the bigger problem with the datacore changes is how they spit the cores up between the races, If enough people change over to fw (which i don't think will happen anyway) then i hope alot of them choose Minmatar as they will be the race to get Mechanical Engineering from (or what you need for every gun and ship to invent)

What i though they was going to do was allow any one to take any datacore apart from the race one which was going to be fw based, whats happened is some races are worth more than others.

And i not sure they have addressed the problems with fw, just they normal boost the rewards and hope things go away



That's not a problem. That's diversity, choice&consequence and supply&demand mechanics and those are GOOD

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
blood hauler
The Art of War
#14 - 2012-05-11 12:37:24 UTC  |  Edited by: blood hauler
Diversity might be good, if all datacores was used in the same amounts. Once you start making one side worth more than the other people will jump on that band wagon (don't know why the band does not have a van yet)

Will have to see how it plays out though for invention might see a huge amount of cores coming from fw or very few depends on what the lp ratio is when it comes live and how much it changes based on which side is wining
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-05-11 15:46:59 UTC
Wyke Mossari wrote:
We need to make our voice heard against this nerf.


Why don't we all go shoot an indestructible object in Jita or Amarr? That'll show CCP we mean srs biznuss...
Steijn
Quay Industries
#16 - 2012-05-11 16:32:32 UTC
I honestly cant see why CCP just keep doing these little nerfs to high sec, why not just get rid of high sec completely as its so plainly obvious that its the road that you are going down.
Bestseller
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-05-27 12:51:16 UTC
Its sad to be a R&D Toon in this game. Nothing more to say....
Asshland Glass
Corsair Cartel
#18 - 2012-05-28 16:45:22 UTC
I wouldn't loose too much sleep over this nerf. While it is practically effortless once trained... It really doesn't make that much compared to some other relatively simple Indy money making approaches. I've trained up to have 5 research agents and still... I'm not too bothered by this.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#19 - 2012-05-28 17:07:36 UTC
I would adapt to the new changes and try to enjoy playing the game, not just grinding ISK 100% of the time.

Perhaps this is what soundwave is trying to motivate you guys to do in the first place.


Undock, go flip/shoot something=profit
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#20 - 2012-05-28 18:04:22 UTC
Wyke Mossari wrote:
The faction warfare buff penultimate section titled "Research agents and datacore changes" is a massive nerf on researchers & inventors.

Research is not passive income, anybody that maximises their out come spends a significant amount of time training, grinding standing and even just flying around to collect them.
Researchers will receive far fewer datacores from their R&D agents.
Research Project Management a 40M rank 8 skill with one purpose will become largely redundant.
Those science skills trained to level 4/5 will be redundant, you generally only need level 1-3 to build most T2 stuff.
Datacore prices will increase sharply making invention more expensive and even less competitive against T2 BPO.

Mining with guns is being removed because it is bad but this change introduces Researching with guns.

Researchers need to make their voice heard by CCP against this nerf.


How was your vacation? Have fun? Take lots of pictures?

Why do I ask? Because you obviously haven't been around for weeks. I'm just jealous at your obvious vacation time away from the computer.
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