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An End to Slavery!
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Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#41 - 2011-09-23 12:59:32 UTC
Rodjy, Leopold, Merdy, and all you others...

Do you give your children (Not saying you have any, but if ya did) Vitoc? Hmm?

Would you send them to be livestock in a breeding colony?

How about ****? Will you **** your kids? Murder them? How about "punish" them so severely that it results in permanent disfigurement or disability?

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#42 - 2011-09-23 13:02:18 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
Under Amarrian law unlike most property you point out can't be 'disposed of' on a mere whim.
A while back you told me I should read the news. I would like to return the favor.

The case I am going to talk about is regarding two Bestower loads of slaves, around 10,000 people, who were left to starve in space. In addition to this, the Sisters of EVE found the following: It is clear that these people have been kept in poor conditions before they were transported here. The victims have injuries caused by weeks and in some cases, years, of neglect.[1]

There was much uproar about this. The Sisters of EVE even shared your hope - they filed a complaint with the Theology Council, stating I understand that Slaving is legal in the Empire, but there are rules and regulations imposed by Amarrian Law. It is clear that these basic rules have not been met.

Now, the Theology Council had the following to say about this:[2]

The Theology Council have reviewed the evidence and, after careful consideration, found no cause to take legal action against Mastuk Rinmumi or Edophia Agmarn. The ownership of slaves is a right given to the Amarr by God and it is not for the Theology Council to interfere in this case. We do, however, stress to all Amarr citizens to be responsible in dealing with their charges. Slaves are an expensive commodity and should not be wasted.

That is, according to Amarrian law and the highest Amarrian court, you can neglect slaves to the point of starving, you can abuse them, you can mistreat them for years - and all of this is covered by the right given to the Amarr by your God.

So, I have to conclude that your statement above was based on you being completely misinformed about Amarrian laws and customs.

Quote:
I know the Matari and Gallentean governments and social support circles would love to make everyone believe that Amarrian slaves are the down trodden, daily beaten and living in shack huts working sixteen hours a day.
Add the Theology Council to the group of people who cast this light on Amarrian slave trade.
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2011-09-23 19:05:11 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:

The case I am going to talk about is regarding two Bestower loads of slaves, around 10,000 people, who were left to starve in space. In addition to this, the Sisters of EVE found the following: It is clear that these people have been kept in poor conditions before they were transported here. The victims have injuries caused by weeks and in some cases, years, of neglect.[1]


This proves the opposite. We are not talking about a holder actively 'destroying his property', but a conflict between two Amarrian's that caused slaves to be caught in the middle. Neither wanted the slaves to die, but neither cared enough for the slaves to relent from their standpoint.

Apparently a couple of hundred slaves dying from neglect was sufficient for the case to be brought before the Theology Council with great speed. To me this implies this matter was taken very seriously. That it was even subject to investigation proves that holders can not just neglect their slave property at a whim, much less destroy them purposely.

The Theology Council reviewed all the evidence. Evidence we are not privy to, and thus we are unable to properly judge all the circumstances of the case. Based on this individual specifics, the Theology Council chose not to take further action against the accused parties.

However, to prevent some holder mistaking this outcome as a sign that the Theology Council approves of such things in general, they issued an additional statement that slaves should be handles responsibly and not wasted.

The Theology Council does *not* approve of wasting slaves. The Theology Council is telling every citizen to handle their slaves responsibly (or else they might need to stand in front of the council as well to explain themselves).
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#44 - 2011-09-23 19:10:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkady Sadik
Merdaneth wrote:
Arkady Sadik wrote:

The case I am going to talk about is regarding two Bestower loads of slaves, around 10,000 people, who were left to starve in space. In addition to this, the Sisters of EVE found the following: It is clear that these people have been kept in poor conditions before they were transported here. The victims have injuries caused by weeks and in some cases, years, of neglect.[1]
This proves the opposite. We are not talking about a holder actively 'destroying his property', but a conflict between two Amarrian's that caused slaves to be caught in the middle. Neither wanted the slaves to die, but neither cared enough for the slaves to relent from their standpoint.
You accidentally forgot to read the part I quoted explicitly: The victims have injuries caused by weeks and in some cases, years, of neglect.

Quote:
The Theology Council does *not* approve of wasting slaves. The Theology Council is telling every citizen to handle their slaves responsibly
Yes, that sounds like a good summary of the whole issue, both in that case and in others: The Amarr say all the time that they treat their slaves well (and there are some that do, not that that makes the problem go away), but they do not enforce this, so what they do is quite the opposite, as exemplified by the Theology Council not doing anything to prevent this, and also the widespread practice of Labor Reeducation Centers.

Hypocrisy is and remains the highest Amarrian virtue.
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#45 - 2011-09-23 19:17:06 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Rodjy, Leopold, Merdy, and all you others...

Do you give your children (Not saying you have any, but if ya did) Vitoc? Hmm?


I would give my children the medicine most suited to them. I doubt Vitoc would be a very effective means to treat children's problems, but if it would be an effective means, then sure I would.

Ava Starfire wrote:
Would you send them to be livestock in a breeding colony?


Are you talking about sending one's children to college?
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#46 - 2011-09-23 19:24:56 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:
Ava Starfire wrote:
Would you send them to be livestock in a breeding colony?
Are you talking about sending one's children to college?
Terminology confusion: Outside of the Empire, College time is about required learning and voluntary reproduction, not required reproduction and no learning.

... this explains the general level of education that Empire loyalists exhibit about the activities of their own nation, though.
Ryven Krennel
Hopscotch
#47 - 2011-09-23 20:51:11 UTC
I think it interesting that everyone debunking Ms. Maleto attacked the sample size rather than the inherent bias of the sample. Whether 5 or 5000, if they are at a charity for victims of abuse, of course they almost all tell how bad their holders are. A random sample would give a better representation.

"Oh, good, we're surrounded.  That makes this easy."
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#48 - 2011-09-23 22:44:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Kithrus wrote:
Well its important we address yet again the vast difference of Amarrian slavery and other types.

Yes slaves are property but they are still souls the holder is deeply responsible for. Under Amarrian law unlike most property you point out can't be 'disposed of' on a mere whim. They are still people like everyone else. They are better compared to conscripts and soldiers and prisoners because these people in times of duty do no have their freedom but are still people.

I know the Matari and Gallentean governments and social support circles would love to make everyone believe that Amarrian slaves are the down trodden, daily beaten and living in shack huts working sixteen hours a day.

Sorry to disappoint but that's far from the case.


So slaves are property. which is the root of my objection.

I've seen a slave market in Amarr space. I've also seen a livestock market. The only discernable differences between the two were the shape of the commodities being traded, and the presence of armed guards and hungry droolers when said commodities were human-shaped.

Oh, and about three hours while they swept up after the slaves and got ready for the livestock to arrive. both markets were conducted in the same building, you see.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#49 - 2011-09-24 17:29:42 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Rodjy, Leopold, Merdy, and all you others...

Do you give your children (Not saying you have any, but if ya did) Vitoc? Hmm?

Would you send them to be livestock in a breeding colony?

How about ****? Will you **** your kids? Murder them? How about "punish" them so severely that it results in permanent disfigurement or disability?



Except for the first part, a lot of parents do such things everywhere in the cluster, and are often punished accordingly. Or not.
Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#50 - 2011-09-24 20:23:49 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Kithrus wrote:
Well its important we address yet again the vast difference of Amarrian slavery and other types.

Yes slaves are property but they are still souls the holder is deeply responsible for. Under Amarrian law unlike most property you point out can't be 'disposed of' on a mere whim. They are still people like everyone else. They are better compared to conscripts and soldiers and prisoners because these people in times of duty do no have their freedom but are still people.

I know the Matari and Gallentean governments and social support circles would love to make everyone believe that Amarrian slaves are the down trodden, daily beaten and living in shack huts working sixteen hours a day.

Sorry to disappoint but that's far from the case.


So slaves are property. which is the root of my objection.

I've seen a slave market in Amarr space. I've also seen a livestock market. The only discernible differences between the two were the shape of the commodities being traded, and the presence of armed guards and hungry droolers when said commodities were human-shaped.

Oh, and about three hours while they swept up after the slaves and got ready for the livestock to arrive. both markets were conducted in the same building, you see.


When I personally go the the market the shelves that keep clothes are not that different then the ones they used to keep some fruits that do not require cooling.

I'm surprised you haven't been spotted walking around with an apple on your head calling it a hat.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.
Astrid Skjerna
Doomheim
#51 - 2011-09-26 16:27:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Astrid Skjerna
Merdaneth wrote:

Apparently a couple of hundred slaves dying from neglect was sufficient for the case to be brought before the Theology Council with great speed. To me this implies this matter was taken very seriously. That it was even subject to investigation proves that holders can not just neglect their slave property at a whim, much less destroy them purposely.


Oh, please. You know and I know that the Theology Council only speaks up when someone gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar. If a holder becomes an embarassment, they step in and make a show of 'cleaning up the system', but it's all a facade designed to smooth ruffled feathers and warn the people about being too obvious.

My 'owner' (and I detest that term, even now) burned my face because I wouldn't submit to him. Where was the Theology Council then, to protect the 'poor neglected slave'? Sitting on their high horse, most likely, pretending nothing was wrong.

If the Amarr are so 'socially advanced' and 'enlightened', perhaps they can tell me why I was forced to sleep on the floor in my cramped quarters, instead of a bed? At least I had a waste recycler. Would have been a very messy business otherwise.

I say this now, and for the record: I will never again submit to the control of another. I swear that I will do whatever it takes to bring my people out of bondage and into a life of freedom.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#52 - 2011-09-27 00:55:09 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
When I personally go the the market the shelves that keep clothes are not that different then the ones they used to keep some fruits that do not require cooling.

I'm surprised you haven't been spotted walking around with an apple on your head calling it a hat.


Either way, hats and apples are commodities.

PEOPLE are not. Except under Amarrian law, of course.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Valkarth Tlakotani
Confederation Navy
#53 - 2011-09-28 23:43:31 UTC
An alternative to slavery is simply to do as the Caldari do. Put them in slums, pay them cheap, work them to death and shoot them when they riot.
A slave by any other name...


Don't be too quick to condemn Amarr with the tactics of 'face lifting' and other ways to mistreat the human body as well as the famous example of Caldari above.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#54 - 2011-10-12 07:37:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
Merdaneth wrote:
Those guardians will be selected from a pool of upstanding citizens of ability and high moral fibre.


So that explains why laxatives are so bloody expensive in the Emperor Family Station in orbit of Orris, eh?

Oh wait...moral fibre. Ah, right then, my mistake.

Carry on milord, carry on.

[/irony, sarcasm, cynicism]

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#55 - 2011-10-17 03:09:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruah Piskonit
Merd,

are you actually trying to meet the enemy halfway? You should know better. . .really.

Ava actually thinks she has compassion, how sweet.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#56 - 2011-10-17 08:33:35 UTC
Ruah Piskonit wrote:
are you actually trying to meet the enemy halfway?
No worries, he isn't.

Ruah Piskonit wrote:
Ava actually thinks she has compassion, how sweet.
I think you should be happy that she does not have the Amarrian type of compassion.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#57 - 2011-10-17 15:46:19 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
I think you should be happy that she does not have the Amarrian type of compassion.


I'd second that. I'd worry about my tribe-sister were she to show that particular brand of 'compassion'.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Donte
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#58 - 2011-10-17 19:31:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Donte
I have a solution.

Eliminate them: all of them.

Turn on the blast furnaces and march them in at gunpoint until there are no more to be found in the Empire.

Then, scour each planet inhabited by them clean of all life. they will, of course, resist; making it all the easier to kill them off by the millions as they throw their antiquated fleets against the assault.

will there be survivors? Sure, but their numbers will be inconsequential and they will be forced to breed with the other races to remain genetically viable. After a few generations none of those human cockroaches will remain and all will be right in the universe.

No mercy, kill them all.

Its the only way to be sure.
Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#59 - 2011-10-17 21:58:33 UTC
Donte wrote:
I have a solution.

Eliminate them: all of them.

Turn on the blast furnaces and march them in at gunpoint until there are no more to be found in the Empire.

Then, scour each planet inhabited by them clean of all life. they will, of course, resist; making it all the easier to kill them off by the millions as they throw their antiquated fleets against the assault.

will there be survivors? Sure, but their numbers will be inconsequential and they will be forced to breed with the other races to remain genetically viable. After a few generations none of those human cockroaches will remain and all will be right in the universe.

No mercy, kill them all.

Its the only way to be sure.



In the dictionary under the definition of 'sociopath' one will find a picture of this waste of carbon. Thank goodness that even the most vile Amarrian doesn't think this way.

I offer a counter proposal; how about we eliminate you instead?
Alistair Cononach
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#60 - 2011-10-18 16:42:58 UTC
The Amarr Empire should work to abolish Slavery and Religious Intolerence, and repatriate all former Matari slaves back to the Republic.

If the ideals and ideas behind Amarrian culture, Amarrianism and the Faith itself are truly enlightened, they can and will stand on their own without coersion or threat of force.

Only upon reaching towards Amarrian Enlightenment, can teh Empire truly ever grow and devlop into the best of what it could be.