Intergalactic Summit

After due deliberation Empress Jamyl and the Theology Council have decided to abolishe slavery. Every slave is now a free man! However, some additional pronouncements were made:

Option 1: Mandatory Conscription
Simultaneously legislation for mandatory conscription has been introduced. To properly defend the Empire against those that threaten it, all citizens are to serve in the military as conscripts unless they request and are given dispensation by the Theology Council on religious grounds. The term of service given is 'as long as severe threats to the Empire exists'.

The new legislation furthermore states service might likely not include a post on the front lines and should be relatively safe for most conscripts. Furthermore, conscripts will be assigned to local commanders, who are chosen from a pool of upstanding citizens of ability and influence. Local commanders may choose to exchange conscripts if they deem it efficient for the war effort.

Option 2: Raised Legal Age
Simultaneously new legislation has been introduced that raises the age at which a Amarr citizen is legally considered an adult and receives corresponding rights to 100 years. The Theology Council stated that they are concerned with the moral fortitude of their citizens in this increasingly complex world where its citizens are subjected to more and more corrupting influences. Citizens can file a request with the Theology Council for special dispensation to be considered adults before this limit of 100 years on religious or moral grounds. Additionally, if a non-adult citizen bears a child, then those children will be assigned to special guardians to care for them until their parents become adults. Those guardians will be selected from a pool of upstanding citizens of ability and high moral fibre. Those guardians can take on children of other guardians if both agree.

Option 3: Imprisonement
The new legislation has made clear that all those accused and sentenced of serious religious crimes in the past will be imprisoned. The prisoners will receive an intensive educational program to prepare them for reintroduction to society, and might be asked to contribute the costs of the new prison system by working. To reduce costs and increase efficiency the Theology Council has furthermore proposed decentralized management of these prisoners. Prison wardens will be chose from a pool of upstanding citizens of ability and influence who will responsibly manage the prisoners under their care. The default penalty for a serious religious crime will remain a life sentence like before. Prison wardens can exchange prisoners if they think it best for their rehabilitation and the other stated goals of the program.

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Note: this fictional post has been inspired by ms. Farel's debate about the definition of slavery. It is intended to make clear both the similarities but also the differences between some common institutions that you'll rarely hear an abolitionist speak about. Slavery is different from conscription, childhood or imprisonement, but not *that* different. I hope even an abolitionist can agree that doing away with slavery and replacing them with one of the options above doesn't really change that much this way. I hope those who fervently oppose slavery but happily agree with conscription, childrren having few rights or imprisonement will think again about such institutions.

I see you still spread your jam as thinly as possible on your toast, Merdaneth. And there is nothing like comparing apples with oranges to pass the time, but it is always a waste of effort with little result in the end. Comparing the two an calling them the same thing in principal does not make them the same thing when the debate is done.

Personally I do not agree with conscription. However, even if I did I don't see the concession to it being the same thing as slavery. A conscript does not have all their rights curtailed beyond their duties to the military they serve. They can marry who they wish, have as many children as they wish, worship whatever gods they wish and, means permitting, live where they wish. If you think that their obligations of duty and the fact they have been volunteered for their position without a choice is the same thing as a slave being taken by a holder and made to do as they bid then you have to accept a few other examples and spread that jam of yours even more thinly. Such as someone who must take a job they do not wish to have, but for lack of other options for one reason or another they have 'no choice' to earn their keep there. There is a morality aspect here that the employer does not force that person to enter their service, removing it a step from conscription and two steps from slavery. In the same way that the enforced service to a military not restricting other basic freedoms is a step away from slavery. So they are not the same thing.

As for children having fewer rights under adults who are their guardians, again this is a step away from slavery. Many slaves live and die in service and never reach this supposed state of enlightenment that entitles them to freedom under your crooked system and demonic religion. Children grow up and become educated, they learn life lessons, good or bad, from their parents and become someone who stands on their own two feet with aspirations of their own. Of course I have heard Amarr such as you prattle on about how everyone of the 'lesser' races are children and you take it on yourselves to parent us to a better state of being. SO save your breath there. I am not convinced of that argument because you have no real moral obligations to do so except for that pile of lies you call scripture commanding you to do so. If you wish to be a child under god and never grow up then do so in your own corner of space, please. But remember this, too. You enslave adults as much as children. And I dare say many are a damn sight more intelligent than the holders that buy them. One famous instance springs to mind. Aritcio Kor-Azor and the Crielere scientists he bought from the Guristas. And then misplaced them as someone might lose their door key. Not very bright...

And imprisonment, you say? Well I have gone at length on the other two and this could end up the same as well so I will simply say this as a simple retort. Criminals committed a wanton crime to be imprisoned. Slaves were simply born.

I like my jam a little thicker, please.

No.

Your logic states that..

If it is generational or vitoc-induced slavery, I am opposed to it.

Violence-enforced slavery is not generational or vitoc-induced slavery, therefor, I am not opposed to it.

This is called 'denying the antecedent', or the inverse error, and it is a formal fallacy

Slavery treats human beings as property.

Conscription, a formal age of majority and penal imprisonment do not.

Interesting reading, Sir. I thank you for your perspective.

Amarrian slavery is not your standard brand of slavery. All other types of slavery I agree with you should be abolished but as it stands we are discussing Amarrian. Bringing in other types and comparing them is more apples to oranges then you care to admit.

So let us get to the core of Stitcher's comment then shall we....



This by far is the only point to slavery that I have to agree with needs to be rectified in an official capacity regardless of how the Empire moves forward.

Slaves should be the property of the Empire and assigned to holder families in the case that new slaves be required by a holder for any reason. Being a ward of the states makes a holder all the more responsible to fill the task of education, reform and uplifting them.

Now that being said the quality of most holders who are not constantly under the eyes of M10 is shockingly high so I personally do not feel moved to force this change through. Many holders are very good people who care for the flocks that God and Empire has permitted them to guide and protect. Some holders have gone quite far out of their way to ensure education is done beyond anything required of them. Such Holders keep a watchful eye on families who are freed in their community providing jobs, loans and scholarships.

Ultimately though there is a vast difference in Amarrian slavery vs others. There comes a day when the slave is freed where as the other types is for lack of a better terms indefinite.

That being said argue slavery with this in mind and do try to stop muddying up the water with all the others.

Apples and oranges after all.

Then I would like to hear your definition of 'being treated as property'. Since I believe that a marked lack of the ability to succesfully pursue certain paths in life (when compared with others) is common between a slave, child, conscript and prisoner. They all have difficulty in controlling what and when to eat, who to see, when to go out, what to learn etc. etc. Additionally, the must all obey superiors on the threat of punishment for disobedience, superiors they are completely dependent upon for the most basic necessities of life.

That is why a Wolf running free in the woods might be legally someone's property, but isn't treated as someone's property, while a dog living in the city is. Children, prisoners, conscripts and slaves aren't wolves running free in the woods. They are city dogs.

I have fought Amarrian slavery for most of my capsuleer career until I retired from that fight. I am fully aware of what Amarrian slavery is and I see no other difference from other brands of slavery except for the piety that follows in its wake as a poor attempt of justification like the smell of rotten fish. Your brand still enslaves people so it should be abolished.

I don't think I was talking about any other form of slavery or even mentioned them to compare them to Amarr slavery. It is all slavery and it is all evil.

I think what you have actually demonstrated here is a fear that Amarr society could not survive the abolition of slavery, or at most would barely limp along. That could be right, but I'd be surprised. For all that can be said of your Empire, it is a very resilient bastard.

No there is no fear however there would be political repercussions as opposed to finical ones some people think we fear. As per the Empress request we will move as ordered but not all at once.