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FW: rebalancing NPCs and you

First post First post
Author
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#81 - 2012-06-12 19:55:27 UTC
corestwo wrote:
The issue with ewar, as I understand it, is the imbalance between factions, right? Particularly with regards to caldari ECM. So would there be a problem with removing all the ewar, replacing it with a stasis tower or three per plex to bandaid the speedtanking issue, and then working on a longer term solution?


This is an idea worth considering but I woudln't like it in plexes for this reason:

With the very small gang pvp (like of 1-3 per side) that plexing often delivers your speed is very important. Almost none of my plexing fits will work if I they are turned into a brick by numerous webs. It will be very hard to hold anyone long enough to kill them. You combine knowing your opponent is going to be webbed with some tracking disruptors or even damps and we have a whole new ballgame that is pretty far removed from pvp in the rest of eve. Some might not view that as a problem but I wouldn't like that at all.


However I do think this would work well for missions and preventing the speedtank /stealth bomber approach. I look at missions as a form of pve. I am ok with missions remaining pve - ie your supposed to warp out when pvpers come. The only time I would really pvp in my missions is when I am using them mainly as bait.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Julius Foederatus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2012-06-12 21:57:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Julius Foederatus
The reason Gallente can't speed tank plexes like the squids do is because of the NPC damage type, not anything to do with ECM EWAR. To be sure it will make PVP easier in the plexes than it was before, but the speed tanking issue, at least on this end of the FW arena, is completely unrelated to NPC ewar. Missile spam is what keeps us from soloing the larger plexes in T1 frigs. You can maybe do mediums with good skills and a good Incursus fit, but the majors are more or less closed to you without some ridiculous skills, or a better ship.

This is at the heart of the occupancy warfare imbalance over here. The squids can run all kinds of plexes with a single type of ship. That means they can go into the backwaters and plex to their heart's content, and never have to stop because they don't burn ammo, don't use up cap booster charges, and most of all, they don't have to reship. We don't have this luxury. The result is that the squids can plex at a far higher rate than we can when plexing in an area far behind the lines. This means that pretty much every system is in play for us defensively, whereas that is not as much a problem for the Caldari.

To reiterate, EWAR has nothing to do with the speed tanking issue in the Cal/Gal side of FW. The issue here is the missile spam and how it is far more effective against frigs than the blaster/rail dps from Gallente rats in Gallente plexes.

Also, Hans you can't say you don't want to make people do more PVE when you're already forcing them to orbit timers for extended periods of time. Either we recognize that speed tanking is an issue and do something about it, or we don't and we continue to let one side have an unfair advantage over the other.
Kreiga Khamsi
Black Watch Guard
#83 - 2012-06-12 22:29:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Kreiga Khamsi
For those that replied to my post, I am sorry I didn't explain myself very well. I absolutely agree with the removal of EWAR from plexes. Re-reading it I see how I may have accross that I was advocating something different. EWAR should be removed because it is a hindrance to PvP, but that on its own won't create PvP situations either. To me it actually encourages farming. Last night a few of us were flying around for hours looking for fights in plexes but as soon as we warp in, even when outnumbered, the WT would warp to a safe and simply wait for us to leave. When we inquired why they would not fight they openly said because they were there to farm LP, not get involved on fights. That is just as frustrating as having NPC EWAR decide the outcomes of fights. Like I said it is becoming like hunting missioning SB.

I agree with the removal of EWAR, but that is only half the solution. Stopping the LP farming (read frigates speed tanking Majors) has to be high on the priority list as well.
Cheekything
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2012-06-12 22:38:20 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Cheekything wrote:

7) Only spawn Plexes in waring neighboring systems, this will create point of conflict rather than who can carebear the most plexes over all factional warfare space and there can always be ones as they will get pushed towards high sec.

This isn't a very good solution - it allows a dominating entity (such as Minmatar) to focus their efforts along a very small front, and the defender will be unable to open new fronts by ninja plexing in the rear. Don't get me wrong - I don't think ninja plexing should be IMPOSSIBLE but I think that it should require a group or at least a commitment of a larger, more capable ship, rather than a day old alt in an afterburning frigate.


That is true but on the flip side in the Gallente / Caldari side I did a quick run around this morning and all the Caldari areas had 1 or 2 Gallente and all the Gallente had 1 or 2 Caldari.

This fails the point of factional warefare.

Also if you included in a system that if your Faction has more overall points than the opposite side then you'd get more complexes in their systems for the other side to beat or something.

Yes it would lead to focused areas of combat but with focused areas comes more PVP, in no where in EVE is the fighting so random, even in wormhole space people dont aimlessly wander they stay within a set number of jumps in fear that they will get stuck.

What I'm saying is we need targets not "go complex in every system".
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2012-06-13 03:37:08 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
corestwo wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Oh, I see what you're saying now. Haven't had enough coffee yet this morning. You're talking about taking care of the issue from a timer angle, not the NPC angle. That definitely has its merits.

I think up to this point the line of thinking has been more on how to adjust the NPC AI themselves to encourage this "sweet spot" in terms of gang size and to discourage speed tanking / farming (by using smarter, incursion-like rats), but I like your angle of tackling the plex timer mechanic itself. That is certainly a good place for the developers to investigate the issue as well, I agree.


Well, removing all ewar from all NPCs is not the way to discourage speed tanking by week old farming alts, that's for sure. Ugh



Let's be honest, the EWAR isn't doing its job to prevent that anyways. At least this way no one will hesitate to go in after them, other than the fact that they could just warp off if they don't want to PvP anyways.

The only sure-fire way to force the ship up is to require the killing of NPC's. While I certainly agree this would reduce farming, I'm hestitant to require more NPC-shooting grinds in what is still a PvP system to me. I think that a lot of us would still prefer to let some speed tankers get away, than to be forced into NPC shooting. But its worthy of further discussion.

I'm sorry to say Hans, but you are wrong on this. Ewar DOES stop people speed tanking when it is balanced and done right (i.e. Minmitar NPCs) and not wrong (Amarr NPCs). The complaints about EWar and NPCs have been because they are UNBALANCED. Amarr need more than a frig to capture a MAJOR because they cannot speed tank due to the missile spam AND TP we receive. We have to kill the rats as a result. The minmitar don't need to shoot the rats at all because they can speed tank them.

The solution CCP SHOULD implement to partially fix the FW plexing mechanics is NOT to remove Ewar. Let that stay for now. Instead they should require that ALL NPCs in a plex have to be killed before the site can be captured. This fits in with RP elements of the NPCs defending a plex AND goes some way to addressing the farming in a 10mn AB fitted frig with no weapons problem we are complaining about. This will give CCP time to view how this changes plexing and the warzone AND time to overhaul the NPCs.

The OTHER thing they need to do is fix the plex bugs that allow people to bug timers so we can't defensively plex when we have a TZ number advantage. Currently just before DT Amarr are finding alot of bugged timers when we have a chance of offensively/defensively plexing with a number advantage. This advantage goes after DT, but the timers are all reset, giving the Minmitar an unfair advantge - unbugged timers in a TZ they can run plexes and then the ability to bug said timers when the Amarr get some numbers available. We can't win under these circumstances. The response from CCP on at least 3 petitions from 3 members of my corp now is something along the lines of "We can't spawn/fix the timers etc... Hopefully DT will clean this up. And yes, the devs ARE aware of this issue...". This has been an issue since before I have been in FW - some tell me it is 4 years old...

Another change CCP needs to make is a check of what militia you belong to BEFORE a standings check occurs. Make it so that your Militia allegence overrides any standings. This fixes people bumping up their standings to avoid being shot by NPCs when farming plexes AND makes it so people who join a militia with low standings don't get shot. When I first joined FW, I didn't have much in the way of Amarr standings. I would go into a plex and my own NPCs would shoot me instead of the WT I was attempting to kill/chase out of the plex. This prevented me from HELPING the "friendly" NPCs.

Speaking of friendly NPCs shooting me, I still haven't had my petition answered as to WHY Amarr NPCs targetted me the other day when I was chasing a WT out of a defensive plex. (I've had a corp mate report the same issue.)

Comms went like this

* Corp Mate - "Har. Get down there and help the NPCs vs that WT" (me in a buffer armor cane vs a SFI with a fast tackle corp mate also in the plex
* Me - "Sorry, need to bail. The NPCs have targetted me and are shooting me. I won't be able to tank them whilst chasing the SFI around"...

I suggest CCP and everyone else read this thread

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=118626

Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2012-06-13 03:39:02 UTC
Kreiga Khamsi wrote:
For those that replied to my post, I am sorry I didn't explain myself very well. I absolutely agree with the removal of EWAR from plexes. Re-reading it I see how I may have accross that I was advocating something different. EWAR should be removed because it is a hindrance to PvP, but that on its own won't create PvP situations either. To me it actually encourages farming. Last night a few of us were flying around for hours looking for fights in plexes but as soon as we warp in, even when outnumbered, the WT would warp to a safe and simply wait for us to leave. When we inquired why they would not fight they openly said because they were there to farm LP, not get involved on fights. That is just as frustrating as having NPC EWAR decide the outcomes of fights. Like I said it is becoming like hunting missioning SB.

I agree with the removal of EWAR, but that is only half the solution. Stopping the LP farming (read frigates speed tanking Majors) has to be high on the priority list as well.

Then logically, wouldn't EWAR lead to pvp since the farmers would not be able to farm with the combination of EWar And being required to kill the NPCs. No farmers left would mean only pvp people left???

Condor Amarr
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#87 - 2012-06-13 04:10:04 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
Kreiga Khamsi wrote:
For those that replied to my post, I am sorry I didn't explain myself very well. I absolutely agree with the removal of EWAR from plexes. Re-reading it I see how I may have accross that I was advocating something different. EWAR should be removed because it is a hindrance to PvP, but that on its own won't create PvP situations either. To me it actually encourages farming. Last night a few of us were flying around for hours looking for fights in plexes but as soon as we warp in, even when outnumbered, the WT would warp to a safe and simply wait for us to leave. When we inquired why they would not fight they openly said because they were there to farm LP, not get involved on fights. That is just as frustrating as having NPC EWAR decide the outcomes of fights. Like I said it is becoming like hunting missioning SB.

I agree with the removal of EWAR, but that is only half the solution. Stopping the LP farming (read frigates speed tanking Majors) has to be high on the priority list as well.

Then logically, wouldn't EWAR lead to pvp since the farmers would not be able to farm with the combination of EWar And being required to kill the NPCs. No farmers left would mean only pvp people left???



No. We have EWAR now and we aren't getting PvP. What makes you think that by doing nothing, it will somehow change?

EWAR needs to go (and really glad it is, thanks again Hans).

From the Amarr/Minmatar side (can't/wont speak for the Cal/Gal side because I don't have enough knowledge on it), the EWAR issue is that the Minmatar EWAR is offensive, meaning it causes additional DPS on Amarr ships (being smashed with missile spam whilst being TP by 4-5 ships really hurts :p). Where are the Amarr EWAR is defensive (TD).
The problem with THAT is there is NO requirement for Minmatar to actually do anything offensive. They simply warp in, click orbit and watch local/short range scan (please stop watching short-range scan, you are costing me kills). This has been proven over and over by the kills which show some cowards getting around with no guns but a cloak on their ship.
If Amarr tried this, we would be TP and missile spammed to hell.

If you wanted EWAR to mean something, then you would need to give the Minnies a requirement to actually shoot at something. There is currently no incentive to do that, so why would they? It's been said several times, they are more than happy (and aren't the only ones, I am sure) to orbit buttons and then just warp out and cloak their Rifter until we leave.

I think we have taken 1 step forward. Unfortunately, if CCP go ahead and remove EWAR without actually fixing the problem (IE - Make us shoot all NPCs etc) then we really are just putting a band-aid on the issue. All this will do is cause Amarr to have plexing "bots" who do nothing other than orbit buttons for LP, the same as the Minmatar have now.

At the end of the day, the biggest attraction to FW (for me personally and for other I have spoken to) was the constant small-gang/solo PvP, without the BS "alarm-clock Eve" that 0.0 demands. If we can have that, I think you'll find us "lolFW PvPers" can go back to shooting each other and CCP can focus on other stuff.
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2012-06-13 05:50:02 UTC
Condor Amarr wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:
Kreiga Khamsi wrote:
For those that replied to my post, I am sorry I didn't explain myself very well. I absolutely agree with the removal of EWAR from plexes. Re-reading it I see how I may have accross that I was advocating something different. EWAR should be removed because it is a hindrance to PvP, but that on its own won't create PvP situations either. To me it actually encourages farming. Last night a few of us were flying around for hours looking for fights in plexes but as soon as we warp in, even when outnumbered, the WT would warp to a safe and simply wait for us to leave. When we inquired why they would not fight they openly said because they were there to farm LP, not get involved on fights. That is just as frustrating as having NPC EWAR decide the outcomes of fights. Like I said it is becoming like hunting missioning SB.

I agree with the removal of EWAR, but that is only half the solution. Stopping the LP farming (read frigates speed tanking Majors) has to be high on the priority list as well.

Then logically, wouldn't EWAR lead to pvp since the farmers would not be able to farm with the combination of EWar And being required to kill the NPCs. No farmers left would mean only pvp people left???



No. We have EWAR now and we aren't getting PvP. What makes you think that by doing nothing, it will somehow change?

EWAR needs to go (and really glad it is, thanks again Hans).

From the Amarr/Minmatar side (can't/wont speak for the Cal/Gal side because I don't have enough knowledge on it), the EWAR issue is that the Minmatar EWAR is offensive, meaning it causes additional DPS on Amarr ships (being smashed with missile spam whilst being TP by 4-5 ships really hurts :p). Where are the Amarr EWAR is defensive (TD).
The problem with THAT is there is NO requirement for Minmatar to actually do anything offensive. They simply warp in, click orbit and watch local/short range scan (please stop watching short-range scan, you are costing me kills). This has been proven over and over by the kills which show some cowards getting around with no guns but a cloak on their ship.
If Amarr tried this, we would be TP and missile spammed to hell.

If you wanted EWAR to mean something, then you would need to give the Minnies a requirement to actually shoot at something. There is currently no incentive to do that, so why would they? It's been said several times, they are more than happy (and aren't the only ones, I am sure) to orbit buttons and then just warp out and cloak their Rifter until we leave.

I think we have taken 1 step forward. Unfortunately, if CCP go ahead and remove EWAR without actually fixing the problem (IE - Make us shoot all NPCs etc) then we really are just putting a band-aid on the issue. All this will do is cause Amarr to have plexing "bots" who do nothing other than orbit buttons for LP, the same as the Minmatar have now.

At the end of the day, the biggest attraction to FW (for me personally and for other I have spoken to) was the constant small-gang/solo PvP, without the BS "alarm-clock Eve" that 0.0 demands. If we can have that, I think you'll find us "lolFW PvPers" can go back to shooting each other and CCP can focus on other stuff.

I think you just made my point. No Ewar means they can speed tank and orbit the button. BALANCED EWar means they need to clear the rats to remove the incoming DPS. Ergo, removing Ewar just means Amarr can now do to the Minmitar what they have been doing to us - rolling noob alts to farm LP. The required fix is to KEEP the Ewar and make them kill the NPCs. If they want the LP, they have to fit weapons and hopefully at that point will fight vs running off to farm another plex.

Condor Amarr
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#89 - 2012-06-13 08:03:19 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
Condor Amarr wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:
Kreiga Khamsi wrote:
For those that replied to my post, I am sorry I didn't explain myself very well. I absolutely agree with the removal of EWAR from plexes. Re-reading it I see how I may have accross that I was advocating something different. EWAR should be removed because it is a hindrance to PvP, but that on its own won't create PvP situations either. To me it actually encourages farming. Last night a few of us were flying around for hours looking for fights in plexes but as soon as we warp in, even when outnumbered, the WT would warp to a safe and simply wait for us to leave. When we inquired why they would not fight they openly said because they were there to farm LP, not get involved on fights. That is just as frustrating as having NPC EWAR decide the outcomes of fights. Like I said it is becoming like hunting missioning SB.

I agree with the removal of EWAR, but that is only half the solution. Stopping the LP farming (read frigates speed tanking Majors) has to be high on the priority list as well.

Then logically, wouldn't EWAR lead to pvp since the farmers would not be able to farm with the combination of EWar And being required to kill the NPCs. No farmers left would mean only pvp people left???



No. We have EWAR now and we aren't getting PvP. What makes you think that by doing nothing, it will somehow change?

EWAR needs to go (and really glad it is, thanks again Hans).

From the Amarr/Minmatar side (can't/wont speak for the Cal/Gal side because I don't have enough knowledge on it), the EWAR issue is that the Minmatar EWAR is offensive, meaning it causes additional DPS on Amarr ships (being smashed with missile spam whilst being TP by 4-5 ships really hurts :p). Where are the Amarr EWAR is defensive (TD).
The problem with THAT is there is NO requirement for Minmatar to actually do anything offensive. They simply warp in, click orbit and watch local/short range scan (please stop watching short-range scan, you are costing me kills). This has been proven over and over by the kills which show some cowards getting around with no guns but a cloak on their ship.
If Amarr tried this, we would be TP and missile spammed to hell.

If you wanted EWAR to mean something, then you would need to give the Minnies a requirement to actually shoot at something. There is currently no incentive to do that, so why would they? It's been said several times, they are more than happy (and aren't the only ones, I am sure) to orbit buttons and then just warp out and cloak their Rifter until we leave.

I think we have taken 1 step forward. Unfortunately, if CCP go ahead and remove EWAR without actually fixing the problem (IE - Make us shoot all NPCs etc) then we really are just putting a band-aid on the issue. All this will do is cause Amarr to have plexing "bots" who do nothing other than orbit buttons for LP, the same as the Minmatar have now.

At the end of the day, the biggest attraction to FW (for me personally and for other I have spoken to) was the constant small-gang/solo PvP, without the BS "alarm-clock Eve" that 0.0 demands. If we can have that, I think you'll find us "lolFW PvPers" can go back to shooting each other and CCP can focus on other stuff.

I think you just made my point. No Ewar means they can speed tank and orbit the button. BALANCED EWar means they need to clear the rats to remove the incoming DPS. Ergo, removing Ewar just means Amarr can now do to the Minmitar what they have been doing to us - rolling noob alts to farm LP. The required fix is to KEEP the Ewar and make them kill the NPCs. If they want the LP, they have to fit weapons and hopefully at that point will fight vs running off to farm another plex.


Which, if you read about 5 pages up, is what everyone has already said. NO ONE wants EWAR (unless it's from an actual player). The fix has already been suggested - Remove EWAR from NPCs and make it so all NPCs need to be killed before the plex will cap. This will completely kill the speed tank AND make so that only those people who are "fit to fight" are in plexes in the first place.

Anything else is just a band-aid.
Kreiga Khamsi
Black Watch Guard
#90 - 2012-06-13 08:21:09 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
Condor Amarr wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:
Kreiga Khamsi wrote:
For those that replied to my post, I am sorry I didn't explain myself very well. I absolutely agree with the removal of EWAR from plexes. Re-reading it I see how I may have accross that I was advocating something different. EWAR should be removed because it is a hindrance to PvP, but that on its own won't create PvP situations either. To me it actually encourages farming. Last night a few of us were flying around for hours looking for fights in plexes but as soon as we warp in, even when outnumbered, the WT would warp to a safe and simply wait for us to leave. When we inquired why they would not fight they openly said because they were there to farm LP, not get involved on fights. That is just as frustrating as having NPC EWAR decide the outcomes of fights. Like I said it is becoming like hunting missioning SB.

I agree with the removal of EWAR, but that is only half the solution. Stopping the LP farming (read frigates speed tanking Majors) has to be high on the priority list as well.

Then logically, wouldn't EWAR lead to pvp since the farmers would not be able to farm with the combination of EWar And being required to kill the NPCs. No farmers left would mean only pvp people left???



No. We have EWAR now and we aren't getting PvP. What makes you think that by doing nothing, it will somehow change?

EWAR needs to go (and really glad it is, thanks again Hans).

From the Amarr/Minmatar side (can't/wont speak for the Cal/Gal side because I don't have enough knowledge on it), the EWAR issue is that the Minmatar EWAR is offensive, meaning it causes additional DPS on Amarr ships (being smashed with missile spam whilst being TP by 4-5 ships really hurts :p). Where are the Amarr EWAR is defensive (TD).
The problem with THAT is there is NO requirement for Minmatar to actually do anything offensive. They simply warp in, click orbit and watch local/short range scan (please stop watching short-range scan, you are costing me kills). This has been proven over and over by the kills which show some cowards getting around with no guns but a cloak on their ship.
If Amarr tried this, we would be TP and missile spammed to hell.

If you wanted EWAR to mean something, then you would need to give the Minnies a requirement to actually shoot at something. There is currently no incentive to do that, so why would they? It's been said several times, they are more than happy (and aren't the only ones, I am sure) to orbit buttons and then just warp out and cloak their Rifter until we leave.

I think we have taken 1 step forward. Unfortunately, if CCP go ahead and remove EWAR without actually fixing the problem (IE - Make us shoot all NPCs etc) then we really are just putting a band-aid on the issue. All this will do is cause Amarr to have plexing "bots" who do nothing other than orbit buttons for LP, the same as the Minmatar have now.

At the end of the day, the biggest attraction to FW (for me personally and for other I have spoken to) was the constant small-gang/solo PvP, without the BS "alarm-clock Eve" that 0.0 demands. If we can have that, I think you'll find us "lolFW PvPers" can go back to shooting each other and CCP can focus on other stuff.

I think you just made my point. No Ewar means they can speed tank and orbit the button. BALANCED EWar means they need to clear the rats to remove the incoming DPS. Ergo, removing Ewar just means Amarr can now do to the Minmitar what they have been doing to us - rolling noob alts to farm LP. The required fix is to KEEP the Ewar and make them kill the NPCs. If they want the LP, they have to fit weapons and hopefully at that point will fight vs running off to farm another plex.


If I understand the guys from Gallante correctly the EWAR can be the deciding factor in their PvP (in that they are jammed by NPC) and I do not agree with this, so I support the removal of EWAR to balance everything. Har you are right that maybe the EWAR wouldn't be the deciding factor in our area, but the Devs have to cater for the other guys as well. I support the removal of EWAR, but at the same time killing all the rats in order to get the LP will stop farming in frigs with no guns.

Hans, basically what Condor said.
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2012-06-13 09:03:05 UTC
Kreiga - you raise a valid point. But that can be fixed by balancing as opposed to just removing. E.g. Only 1 jamming ship in a spawn vs 2-3 for example. Also, it is not unreasonable to have the NPC ewar such as jamming turn off if a member of the opposing militia warps into the plex.
You are never going to get pvp in a plex all the time. I think it is reasonable to expect the NPCs to put up a decent fight and use all weapons at their disposal including their racial ewar...

Madbuster73
State War Academy
Caldari State
#92 - 2012-06-14 20:46:19 UTC
Cearain wrote:
There are allot of good ideas here.

XGallentius is right the npcs should really be a dps sink. Chatgris is right they shouldn't interfere with pvp. And pretty much everyone is agrees speedtanking plexes is a problem. I think the following changes - mostly proposed by others - would work well:

1) must kill all rats

2) the rats will orbit the button and not leave that orbit range and only agro when the timer is running. If the timer stops they stop aggroing. This will do 3 things:
A) it will mean if a war target warps in the person running the plex can go outside the timer range and fight without worring about rat damage.
B) It will prevent one ship from comming in collecting the aggro orbiting outside range while a small long range destroyer just shoots the rats inside the orbit range
C) If it is a newer player having problems with the rats they can shoot the rats outside the orbit button. This of course means it will take longer for them to run the plex. But gives them an option.

3) Have the rats use small weapon systems. Having battleships shoot torpedoes is just asking players to speedtank the plexes in a small ship. Instead of torpedoes the rats should use light missiles/assault and rockets. Battleships will just fit more of them and have more damage mods. They should also use smaller guns that can track. The rats might also get a speed boost. This will mean that a) the overall dps will go down,(allowing more pvp fits to be used in plexes) but also b)the rats will hit smaller ships almost as hard as bigger ships - which means people will use the bigger ships. Perhaps some of the ships will stay in orbits throughout the range instead of chasing us if that will mean it is harder to kite them inide the orbit range.

4) Possibly increase the tank on the npcs. I'm not sure how necessary this is but its something ccp can tweak if necessary.



+1
Madbuster73
State War Academy
Caldari State
#93 - 2012-06-15 09:11:56 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:
The reason Gallente can't speed tank plexes like the squids do is because of the NPC damage type, not anything to do with ECM EWAR. To be sure it will make PVP easier in the plexes than it was before, but the speed tanking issue, at least on this end of the FW arena, is completely unrelated to NPC ewar. Missile spam is what keeps us from soloing the larger plexes in T1 frigs. You can maybe do mediums with good skills and a good Incursus fit, but the majors are more or less closed to you without some ridiculous skills, or a better ship.

This is at the heart of the occupancy warfare imbalance over here. The squids can run all kinds of plexes with a single type of ship. That means they can go into the backwaters and plex to their heart's content, and never have to stop because they don't burn ammo, don't use up cap booster charges, and most of all, they don't have to reship. We don't have this luxury. The result is that the squids can plex at a far higher rate than we can when plexing in an area far behind the lines. This means that pretty much every system is in play for us defensively, whereas that is not as much a problem for the Caldari.

To reiterate, EWAR has nothing to do with the speed tanking issue in the Cal/Gal side of FW. The issue here is the missile spam and how it is far more effective against frigs than the blaster/rail dps from Gallente rats in Gallente plexes.

Also, Hans you can't say you don't want to make people do more PVE when you're already forcing them to orbit timers for extended periods of time. Either we recognize that speed tanking is an issue and do something about it, or we don't and we continue to let one side have an unfair advantage over the other.


+1
Yes, its the missile spam that makes it impossible for the gallente. So give all the NPC races missiles and problem solved. no more 1 day old Caldari alts farming in stabbed t1 frigates.

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#94 - 2012-06-15 17:37:21 UTC
Hey guys, I was talking with Shalee Lianne and Drackarn and a few others on twitter today about the NPC issue, discussing the issue of speedtanking and plex farming.

A lot of you have suggested forcing the killing of rats in order to be able to seize the plex. As I've said before, I don't like this idea on the basis of keeping Sovereignty control as a PvP activity, and never *requiring* FW pilots to shoot red crosses in order to fight over a system.

One compromise that was well received all around was the idea of moving the LP reward to a rat bounty, and separating it from Sov control?

This way PvP-ers fighting over a system could still ignore the rats and engage in Factional Warfare without being forced to PvE. Those that wanted to farm plexing for profit couldn't do so in a speed-tanking frig, they'd have to actually *do something* for their isk.

There are variants on this, making the payout for the rats only occur if the timer actually completes, keeping people from just blitzing rats than leaving. But barring technical limitations that make programming this difficult, I think moving the profit-end of plexing to the rat killing solves a lot of issues.

What do you think everyone?

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#95 - 2012-06-15 18:26:49 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
What do you think everyone?


Good first start and it will remove many afk plexing alt farmers from the area. However speed tanking major plexes in unfit frigs for sovereignty control is just as bad as it is for LP rewards. The Occupancy War will still be fought with afk plexing alts (offensive and defensive) - which is still wrong and still game breaking.

Better short term solution: Just have them kill all the rats. Stops offensive speed tanking ships from screwing up both Occupancy Warfare, and isk payouts.

Then figure out a way to stop the afk defensive plexing alts from being so efficient as well.


Edit: What you are saying, What I am saying
1. Farming - You: Kill NPCs, Me: Kill NPCs
2. Occupancy Warfare - You: Speed tanking is cool, Me: Kill NPCs
3. PvP - You: Don't have to shoot red squares, Me: Don't have to shoot red squares.

You kill rats to win occupancy, not to PvP. Nobody said you had to stay and finish the plex after a fight. Nobody said you had to run the timer before one.
Julius Foederatus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2012-06-15 22:38:45 UTC
I don't understand why you're labeling rat killing as PVE, but somehow having to orbit a button for 20min is perfectly fine in PVP world. If not having to do PVE is your objection, then you had better start brainstorming a better, more balanced mechanic than we have now. Otherwise we should balance the plexing mechanics we already have so that it's a level playing field and stop trying to make concessions to people who already live in the most active pvp environment there is in EVE. Enough with the spoonfeeding.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#97 - 2012-06-15 23:40:28 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Hey guys, I was talking with Shalee Lianne and Drackarn and a few others on twitter today about the NPC issue, discussing the issue of speedtanking and plex farming.

A lot of you have suggested forcing the killing of rats in order to be able to seize the plex. As I've said before, I don't like this idea on the basis of keeping Sovereignty control as a PvP activity, and never *requiring* FW pilots to shoot red crosses in order to fight over a system.

One compromise that was well received all around was the idea of moving the LP reward to a rat bounty, and separating it from Sov control?

This way PvP-ers fighting over a system could still ignore the rats and engage in Factional Warfare without being forced to PvE. Those that wanted to farm plexing for profit couldn't do so in a speed-tanking frig, they'd have to actually *do something* for their isk.

There are variants on this, making the payout for the rats only occur if the timer actually completes, keeping people from just blitzing rats than leaving. But barring technical limitations that make programming this difficult, I think moving the profit-end of plexing to the rat killing solves a lot of issues.

What do you think everyone?



Hans thanks for posting this and continuing to engage the community.

But I don't understand what you mean by "lp reward to a rat bounty and seperating it from sov control." Do you mean that we would shoot rats for lp but the sov control would be determined solely by the timer and not yield any lp?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#98 - 2012-06-15 23:42:45 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:
I don't understand why you're labeling rat killing as PVE, but somehow having to orbit a button for 20min is perfectly fine in PVP world...


Shooting rats is clearly pve because you are fighting a computer ai. Orbitting a button is pvp if we assume that enemy players will come to fight for that plex within that time. Admittedly that assumption is often wrong.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2012-06-16 01:52:57 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Julius Foederatus wrote:
I don't understand why you're labeling rat killing as PVE, but somehow having to orbit a button for 20min is perfectly fine in PVP world...


Shooting rats is clearly pve because you are fighting a computer ai. Orbitting a button is pvp if we assume that enemy players will come to fight for that plex within that time. Admittedly that assumption is often wrong.

Ergo, there are NO pvp mechanics for sov capture in FW as we don't have to DO something like online ihubs and drop SBUs and shoot structures like they do in null sov.

Orbitting a button IS a PvE activity. Attempting to stop someone doing that is a PvP activity. The person trying to PvE who responds to the person trying to PvP them is also PvPing...Blink

Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#100 - 2012-06-16 01:58:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Gevlin
Unless there is a mechanic that is "Instant action" option and the Player is Hot dropped any block that is being taken over NPC will have to be a barrier to entry.

When I talk about NPC i mean ones that have brains. Ones that are tough.

I would like to see some resistance than now resistance when I come to fight a challenge.

Though it would be interesting to see an NPC light a cyno and a bunch of players come rushing threw.

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships