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Expanding EvE with out adding solar systems.

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Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#61 - 2011-09-23 04:10:36 UTC
Erik Finnegan wrote:
Here is your answer, Bloodpetal; CCP will not continue feedback. Also, I read in a dev / CSM blog that a dev blog commenting the feedback shall appear soon.



Thanks for the answer and the link!

Where I am.
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#62 - 2011-09-23 12:29:10 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Expanding EvE with out adding space.

I had an idea but the more i thought about it the more it just seamed to be not enough, so how would you go about making EvE seam bigger with out adding in more solar systems?


Simply increase distances between all objects, increase distances by factors of say 10x, spreading asteroid belts, planet/moon orbits, all objects further apart. Shipping something to another region/part of the universe should be difficult to do.

Increased travel time and so many more places to hide/kill rats/mine/pvp/pve/do whatever. The kind of scale increase I am thinking of is near scale of constellations, so each solar system would be more spread out. Or even a 10-system constellation filled with 5 planets each...convert each system to 50-planet system but spread out of the size of the constellation.

Use some system that follows logic. For example, the railroads created towns every 15-minutes due to water refills for steam engines. Not saying huge distance, just enough to keep one red in system very busy if they are solo.




I'm not understanding you.
Put simply, currently the distance between celestial objects, jump gates, stations, etc is a certain amount. Lets call that distance a variable X. The idea is to increase that distance by a factor of ten, so multiply everything 10X resulting in greater distances for travel everywhere. The resulting universe would be ten times larger than current size.

Example: put 100 killers in a 1 mile x 1 mile square and they would likely very quickly kill each other, reducing 100 killers to just a few in a very short time-frame.
Example: following with this idea we increase the ratio by ten; now the same 100 killers in a 10 mile x 10 mile square, the killing will be at a much slower pace due to the greater distance between them.

You may see someone in local, but it will take them a bit of time to zero in on your location.

Other possible changes such as removing the provided bookmarks for asteroid belts, celestial objects (sun, moons, planets, etc), or even ore from the overview could also contribute to that feeling of greater distances. It is all in how you want to play the game. How dedicated are the pvp players going to be in order to kill each other? Make them have to scan each other down; built up frustration and delay before kills will also tend to make the Eve Universe seem that much larger.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#63 - 2011-09-23 13:05:50 UTC
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Expanding EvE with out adding space.

I had an idea but the more i thought about it the more it just seamed to be not enough, so how would you go about making EvE seam bigger with out adding in more solar systems?


Simply increase distances between all objects, increase distances by factors of say 10x, spreading asteroid belts, planet/moon orbits, all objects further apart. Shipping something to another region/part of the universe should be difficult to do.

Increased travel time and so many more places to hide/kill rats/mine/pvp/pve/do whatever. The kind of scale increase I am thinking of is near scale of constellations, so each solar system would be more spread out. Or even a 10-system constellation filled with 5 planets each...convert each system to 50-planet system but spread out of the size of the constellation.

Use some system that follows logic. For example, the railroads created towns every 15-minutes due to water refills for steam engines. Not saying huge distance, just enough to keep one red in system very busy if they are solo.




I'm not understanding you.
Put simply, currently the distance between celestial objects, jump gates, stations, etc is a certain amount. Lets call that distance a variable X. The idea is to increase that distance by a factor of ten, so multiply everything 10X resulting in greater distances for travel everywhere. The resulting universe would be ten times larger than current size.

Example: put 100 killers in a 1 mile x 1 mile square and they would likely very quickly kill each other, reducing 100 killers to just a few in a very short time-frame.
Example: following with this idea we increase the ratio by ten; now the same 100 killers in a 10 mile x 10 mile square, the killing will be at a much slower pace due to the greater distance between them.

You may see someone in local, but it will take them a bit of time to zero in on your location.

Other possible changes such as removing the provided bookmarks for asteroid belts, celestial objects (sun, moons, planets, etc), or even ore from the overview could also contribute to that feeling of greater distances. It is all in how you want to play the game. How dedicated are the pvp players going to be in order to kill each other? Make them have to scan each other down; built up frustration and delay before kills will also tend to make the Eve Universe seem that much larger.


I too would like to make everything ten times more irritating than it already is.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#64 - 2011-09-23 15:58:11 UTC
Ok, so only being allowed to warp line of site wouldn't work in a lot of systems because while a jump gate may be in line with a planet, the side of the planet you would need to be on in order to have line of site with anything else, wouldn't be reachable from the jump gate you're at.

Now, if they set the system to use objcets somewhat like a slingshot, meaning you warp around the objects, then this would make more sense. It would also make more sense in a manner of lore, seeing as how pilots don't actually control the ship while in warp. It is all controlled by the ship's computers, so the ship would track any objects in front of you, and would guide the ship around them while in warp.

The reason why this isn't already implemented is because it's a mass of programming and it's easier just to allow ships to warp straight lines. It's a game. It's possible for them to set ships to avoid objects, but it's a head ache for programming, and CCP assumed you'd get the idea of why you fly in straight lines.
Goose99
#65 - 2011-09-23 16:08:39 UTC
How about just add more systems? Game population increased, they need living space, particularly in highsec. Every successful mmo has added new territory as content as population increases, most mmos that failed haven't.Roll
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#66 - 2011-09-23 16:37:59 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
How about just add more systems? Game population increased, they need living space, particularly in highsec. Every successful mmo has added new territory as content as population increases, most mmos that failed haven't.Roll


We have plenty of systems in eve to support a much larger population. The problem is a lot of those systems aren't functional in any way.

Which is why I had suggested more agents, stations, belts, and so on.

If anything this would make regional market prices better for the producers since everyone would spread out more. It would also create more trade hubs instead of the 4 main we have now. Instead of faction trade hubs, we might actually have regional trade hubs.

I tell ya, i was in one portion of high sec amarr space. I think it was a good 10 jumps from amarr, but in the same region. There was like maybe 5 people per system. The region was too big and everyone stayed near the trade hub.

That region could have been cut down and given more incentive to go into that area, which would have created a new trade hub.

That's my idea
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#67 - 2011-09-24 03:47:00 UTC
Joe Risalo > I believe the issue is demand. In the Market economy, those barren locations/systems/areas are barren due to no demand. So whether mining, manufacturing, PI, ratting, or other... those players want an immediate sale to get ISK for their goods. Hubs offer that demand that those barren locations do not.

So, if CCP or players can figure out how to place buy orders for every possible item on the market in those barren locations, players will be able to move there and sell their goods locally. Otherwise, the distance to transport goods to market tends to cause migration towards that central market Hub.

An example is nul markets are flooded with loot from players running cosmic anomalies, such as sanctums etc. There is almost no local demand for those items, so it is melted (reprocessing) for minerals. That includes most Meta 4 loot drops, which under normal circumstances would be a valuable commodity. Those areas where the market is flooded with that item, the price goes down to almost worthless.

CCP knows this and does nothing because the loudest whiners are those that want their bounty prizes from NPC ratting. Get rid of bounties and those players will quit the game... thus an endless cycle of bad decisions. From what I heard in forums, same goes for some about loot from Drones.

So really it became CCP trying to appease the most ppl and still be able to improve the game.
Aristash
Warriors tribe
Dakka Fleet
#68 - 2011-09-24 12:03:46 UTC
adding new space make eve better place...
Adunh Slavy
#69 - 2011-09-24 18:39:15 UTC
Here's an idea, a bit dated but still stands IMO.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/AdunhSlavy/RSIV611.htm

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Insane Randomness
Stellar Pilgrimage
#70 - 2011-09-25 05:57:17 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Because from past treads people are hard against adding more systems, that's most of the reason.

We have quite a few systems now, there's just no reason to go to most of them / There empty.


And yet, for some odd reason, if a small corp wants a bit of space, and decides to take control over IT alliances territory, IT alliance is not happy with it, even though they don't use the space, and MUST run said small alliance out.

Just an example. I agree, adding systems is the wrong course, as the big alliances would just take up more space, but something HAS to be done. Space just doesn't feel big enough. I like the idea of the reduction of warp speed. Or maybe, inversely, make systems much much larger.
Mirima Thurander
#71 - 2011-09-25 15:07:19 UTC
Insane Randomness wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Because from past treads people are hard against adding more systems, that's most of the reason.

We have quite a few systems now, there's just no reason to go to most of them / There empty.


And yet, for some odd reason, if a small corp wants a bit of space, and decides to take control over IT alliances territory, IT alliance is not happy with it, even though they don't use the space, and MUST run said small alliance out.

Just an example. I agree, adding systems is the wrong course, as the big alliances would just take up more space, but something HAS to be done. Space just doesn't feel big enough. I like the idea of the reduction of warp speed. Or maybe, inversely, make systems much much larger.



Even tho i said the thing about the warp speed i like the guys idea about having more drop out and realigning points, gives more places to Yarr at in ever system besides at the gates.


While i'm talking about that, for the people that don't like using the normal realigning points you could make your own in the system by the use of bookmarks the same way you make safe spots now.


Realigning points could also be used for adding more flavor to the place with like space Bars and stuff like that ( after they have worked on FiS).

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#72 - 2011-09-25 17:03:42 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Even tho i said the thing about the warp speed i like the guys idea about having more drop out and realigning points, gives more places to Yarr at in ever system besides at the gates.


While i'm talking about that, for the people that don't like using the normal realigning points you could make your own in the system by the use of bookmarks the same way you make safe spots now.


Realigning points could also be used for adding more flavor to the place with like space Bars and stuff like that ( after they have worked on FiS).


i don't like that idea. I dont' like it because

1) again, some points won't line up. You'd jump to one of the planets in line, but have no where to go from there cause there's nothing in line with that side of the planet

2) It can be complicated enough to get past gate camps. It will be much harder with planet camps cause you'll land right on a point, instead of jumping through a gate and being anywhere within 15km of the gate. All they would have to do is have someone sitting there to decloak anyone and insta lock. So not only would non-cloakable players not be able to get away, but neither would cloakable players.

3) This doesn't make eve seem bigger, and it doesn't make eve seem better. All it does is make life harder for transporters and everyone else, while making life easier for pirates.

Eve is very large, and has lots and lots of places to go that can take forever to get there.

What they don't have is something to do when you get there, so you turn around and go to the closest trade hub and find and agent there.

CCP needs to give some incentive for players to move to new locations, which will inspire someone to start a new trade hub there, which will spread people out, raise revenue for miners, traders, and builders alike.

Add more lvl 5 missions and complexes into low sec areas so low sec ppl will spread out more.

Than add something to null sec that will have players spread out a bit more.
Mirima Thurander
#73 - 2011-09-25 17:38:14 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:


1) again, some points won't line up. You'd jump to one of the planets in line, but have no where to go from there cause there's nothing in line with that side of the planet




They don't have to be at planets only, they can be any where in system and there's nothing stopping you from making your own points to warp to, I do it all ready in null to avoid warp bubbles.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Andrea Griffin
#74 - 2011-09-26 21:20:49 UTC
Baljos Arnjak wrote:
you'd have to actually find the next gate by either warping to another object close enough to see it on the overview, or by having a previously made bookmark.
This will lead to the terrible situation we had years ago when there was no warp-to-zero and everyone had a bazillion bookmarks - every gate and station to every gate - so that they could land at zero. Granted, some people made a bundle of isk by selling gigantic bookmark packs, but do you really want to spend the next month of your life waiting as bookmarks are added to your locations window at the rate of a minute per batch of 5?

Cool idea in theory, but it will make the game worse in practice.

CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#75 - 2011-09-26 22:25:12 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:

They don't have to be at planets only, they can be any where in system and there's nothing stopping you from making your own points to warp to, I do it all ready in null to avoid warp bubbles.


Quote:

This will lead to the terrible situation we had years ago when there was no warp-to-zero and everyone had a bazillion bookmarks - every gate and station to every gate - so that they could land at zero. Granted, some people made a bundle of isk by selling gigantic bookmark packs, but do you really want to spend the next month of your life waiting as bookmarks are added to your locations window at the rate of a minute per batch of 5?

Cool idea in theory, but it will make the game worse in practice.


To me it's not a matter of practice, its a matter of having objects that will allow you to be aligned with another object.

You wouldn't be able to just warp to a planet, star or whatever. CCP would have to go through to every object and make sure that you warp to a side of the object that would allow you to be aligned with another object.

So, you see a planet in front of you. You warp to the planet, you're on that same side of the planet, but you're not in line with anything, so you have to warp to another planet to align with the side of the planet you just came from, so that you'll be in line with the star so that you can align to the planet you warped to to align to the second planet, that way you're on the back side of the planet, so you can warp to the gate you need.

In order to avoid this kind of confused chaos, CCP would have to reprogram every ojbect in eve to allow you to warp to a point around that planet in which you're able to align with another object. If they didn't they there would be players lost out in space unable to find a method to align themselves with another gate or station, belt, etc. etc..

Not to mention that some systems would require the addition of new objects because the system would have limited objects and you wouldn't be able to align to anything.

Most of the time, belts, station, gates, and whatever else are typically in close proximity to a planet in order to use its gavity field. This makes aligning to these places much more difficult because they're so close to the planet.

CCP has designed the game to where you fly through objects, because it takes a mass of programming of each individual possible line in which you could possibly warp so that the system would know which objects are in the way and vier the ships around them.

It makes it even more complicated that mission locations are placed in random spots, so the lines wouldn't be able to be pre-ordaned. The server would have to calculate the line you're taking when you click warp. This would require a load on the server for each and every person that clicked the warp button, which can be several hundred if not thousands at any given time.
Basically, server crashes all around, lol.

You ever tried to create several way points and then optimize them? If you dont' take the game's advice and try to optimize them all at once, you may actually freeze your game up. It would be no different than if the game were trying to optimize you track for warp. That's why we warp through objects. Must too complicated and taxing any other way.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#76 - 2011-09-26 22:29:10 UTC
P.S.
Eve is plenty big. Why would you want it to seem bigger anyways? Most players stick to a specific region and a specific system, so in reducing warp time or requiring you to make several alignments would only heavily effect traders, transports, low sec roams, and null sec roams.

these are the main people that would truly hate reduced warp, and/or having to have line of site.

If you ask these people what they think about the size of eve, they're probably say it's just fine, or they wish it were smaller so transport times would be shorter and pvp would be more easy to come by.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2011-09-27 03:36:05 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
How about just add more systems? Game population increased, they need living space, particularly in highsec. Every successful mmo has added new territory as content as population increases, most mmos that failed haven't.Roll


We have plenty of systems in eve to support a much larger population. The problem is a lot of those systems aren't functional in any way.

Which is why I had suggested more agents, stations, belts, and so on.

If anything this would make regional market prices better for the producers since everyone would spread out more. It would also create more trade hubs instead of the 4 main we have now. Instead of faction trade hubs, we might actually have regional trade hubs.

I tell ya, i was in one portion of high sec amarr space. I think it was a good 10 jumps from amarr, but in the same region. There was like maybe 5 people per system. The region was too big and everyone stayed near the trade hub.

That region could have been cut down and given more incentive to go into that area, which would have created a new trade hub.

That's my idea


The hope would be to spread folks out. The reality would be to cluster them together.

If you want to spread them out then you make possible faster travel to farther places.

If I can spend 2 hours getting 50 jumps out and back, I'm liable to spend that time within 20 jumps but I probably will be found anywhere within those 20 jumps vs just sitting within a couple of my home system.

Revers this to 2 hours to get 5 jumps and you'll probably find me 1-2 jumps -MAX- from where I may "live" and that would be far less common than my sitting in my home system.

IMO - reverse some of this. Double to quintuple the number of gates in each system - more travel paths and some to far more distant locations.

You now "open up" space for players to more quickly move between various points quickly - and, as such, you open up the game world for even more points of interaction.

You end up with people ABLE to spend 1-2 hours bouncing between various locations. Not "stuck" for a 2 hour session watching "warp tunnels" to get anywhere.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#78 - 2011-09-27 03:44:27 UTC
Well I had a similar thread some time ago on the old forums but it didnt include warp field planets which I think is the most awsome idea ever.

But what good is a detor when there is nothign there when you get there?

The thread I started basically listed things to 'populate' a solar system, giving it dozens of things to do go visit or see in the solar system.

One example was a solar array that camps near the sun, the facility would offer better refine rates than the local stations but has a daily limit and tax was based on system owner rep.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Mirima Thurander
#79 - 2011-09-28 12:43:06 UTC
UP

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Erik Finnegan
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
#80 - 2011-09-28 15:03:18 UTC
Mirima, maybe you expand the OP, summing up the pros and cons and adding those further suggestion details which came up in the thread.