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Question/s to null and low sec players.
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Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#261 - 2012-05-12 02:58:51 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
Yeah, you are mistaken. 0.0 is safe for anyone moving within territories controlled by, (or at least safeguarded by), their Alliance, but for anyone else it is essentially a Deathtrap.

So, this is a setup for a joint "lol nullbear" and "~honor~less blobbers" post, right?


Not at all. ..you obviously don't pay much attention to my posting, (not that I expect you to), or you'd know I have never spoken or typeth the phrase "lol nullbear", much less used the term "~honor~less blobbers."

I'm just making an observation and disagreeing with someone based on my own experience.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Duvida
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#262 - 2012-05-12 05:47:25 UTC
I don't intend to graduate to nullsec or to lowsec.
Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#263 - 2012-05-12 06:03:04 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:
1) If you were CCP, how would you get more players involved in 0.0 space and low sec - without compromising or getting rid of high sec completely?


The main reason players are afraid of low and null sec is because they never go and it slowly grows over time to be some monstrous death zone where only the most skilled players could ever go. Players start thinking 'maybe when I finish another 6 months of skills I'll go there' and they never feel comfortable with the idea of going.

GSF tries to make sure that newbees get out to 0.0 within hours of joining the alliance to avoid this from happening.

Players will get more involved in 0.0 and low sec when they realise it's not an instakill death fortress, I'd recommend that everyone who is afraid of 0.0 to create a trial account, train it up for a day (at most) and then go into low sec and realise how only a handful of systems are dangerous.

PS: Moving content won't force people to leave because the issue isn't one of risk vs reward at all, it's 'fear of the unknown'. High sec players will just start grinding the less profitable activities instead.


I heard that you do offer that. If i decided to join ya i have to contract my gear to you. you accept i promptly get part way out then all fo sudden your fleet shoots my new megathron and then i wonder why i am in my medical clone going WTF and then i realized you booted me from corp/alliance and stolen all my gear. heard this a thousand times.

So as to answer the OPs question.
1> you will get GOONs say that empire space should have nothing to make isk if not very little. cannot be done leave the missions where they are.
2> Remove incursion from empire will never happen for the idiot who said remove it from empire. You forget its an invasion or did you forget your brain...oh yeah its a GOON explains everything
3> now maybe getting people into 0.0 space would involve the scammers getting a Lobotomy along with all of GOONSs and their pets. that might help get new folk interested. but we know this will never happen.
4> Hope that these new players find a corp that is WILLING to help and not rob them or back stab them in some fashion to show them the way

have fun kids
Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#264 - 2012-05-12 06:04:07 UTC
Duvida wrote:
I don't intend to graduate to nullsec or to lowsec.


AWSOME!!! playt he game the way you want man. oh hold it!!!! yeah yeah your right its a sandbox enjoy yourself and have fun
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#265 - 2012-05-12 06:07:38 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
Yeah, you are mistaken. 0.0 is safe for anyone moving within territories controlled by, (or at least safeguarded by), their Alliance, but for anyone else it is essentially a Deathtrap.

So, this is a setup for a joint "lol nullbear" and "~honor~less blobbers" post, right?


Not at all. ..you obviously don't pay much attention to my posting, (not that I expect you to), or you'd know I have never spoken or typeth the phrase "lol nullbear", much less used the term "~honor~less blobbers."

I'm just making an observation and disagreeing with someone based on my own experience.

No no no, I meant someone else would come in and say it... but I guess they won't now ^___^

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#266 - 2012-05-12 06:44:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Darth Tickles wrote:
Anything less than that, I think you're better off elsewhere, I imagine WHs are similar.

WHs are the opposite of casual:

in 0.0 you can log in, undock your ratting ship and earn some isk if nothing else is going on - even if you have to leave after 15 minutes you still haven't wasted your time, if nobody else is online it's all the better.

In WHs you can do nothing when your corp isn't online (other than scanning out sites in hope that more people will come online later) - solo play is flat out impossible.

I haven't been in a wormhole corp myself but was in alliance with a former wh corp - they had moved into their C5 with high hopes and for the first 1-2 weeks everything went great - the scheduled PvE ops (daily) had high attendance and everybody made a lot of ISK.

Then came a period of low attendance and they could only get 2-3 people online at a time - and those 2-3 people could do nothing but sit around fiddling their thumbs and wait for another 3 people to log in. They weren't just less effective when they didn't get enough members, they were not able to do anything at all on their own.

By the time the other players returned those that had spent way too much time doing nothing (when they wanted to earn money for the capitals/supers they had set their eyes upon) had quit in frustration and the problem continued.

Eventually they gave up their big hopes, pulled down the POS and moved to 0.0 (for pvp) and high-sec (for incursions).

.
Jhoria Englside
Brojob
#267 - 2012-05-12 11:18:33 UTC
Darth Tickles wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
They don't call them nullbears for nothing. What is there to adapt to? See stranger in local - warp to safety.

The hardest thing about living in 0.0 is getting there. After you're there, it's even safer than hisec.


Ignoring the classic misconceptions and falsehoods, getting there is actually the easiest part. You just set your med clone and kill yourself.

Again, you really have absolutely no clue what you're talking about, and unless you want to act as a caricature for us to use as examples, I suggest you just stop.

I live in null and I have to say most of what has been said I can agree with to a point. But saying "use game mechanics newbies don't know how to use taking advantage of an empty clone newbies don't have to get to null easy sauce" is poor game design. As soon as they learn about implants everyone gets a set. But newbies don't usually have JC to protect their learning set. Gate amps or the perceived prevalence IS a barrier of entry.
Draco5432
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#268 - 2012-05-12 12:12:06 UTC
I know I will most Likely be labeled as a noob But meh.

The reasons I kinda sorta don't want to leave high sec is mainly the amount of stuff I will loose if I do. I have many many skill points set kinda all over the place. I have many many items and a bunch of ships. I am also very casual. I have to admit I havn't really done much missions and mainly just went out mining. Trying to find lvl 1 mission NPCs in high sec is hard enough outside the starting areas Let alone in a low to Null sec area. ntm the shear amount of missions you have to do to get anywhere.

On top of that there is the fear of being killed. Clones are expensive when you have so many skill points as are the +5 Augments I have. Now sure Imma loose those regardless if I ever decide to switch those out.

Now don't get me wrong. I have dreamed of owning my own POS and even a titan or super capital. It just disheartens me that no matter what I try I am going to loose them. My corp is small and some yahoo is gonna have them destroyed the second he finds them. Literally shredding my dreams with the help of his corp.

The other problems I have is I'm not very good with numbers. Its quite hard for me to see if that gun or modual there is actually better than the one I currently have. I mostly have to depend on others. or waist a load of isk to find out I got the wrong guns. Also I see scouting with a pod as suicide. Ya lets just poke my head out and see if anyone is there.

Its almost like the only real way for a Highsec player to go to low sec is for them to get some cheap ass ship. make sure their clone is good and up to snuff. Take out all your augments and hightail it hoping your ship is faster than the gate campers.. cuz there are ALWAYS gate campers. No exception.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#269 - 2012-05-12 12:24:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Ludi Burek wrote:
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:


What about CCP just works to get newbies into 0.0 - everyone who is in high sec now is a lost cause, the attitude is set in place and no game play changes will do anything but convince them that their attitude is right.

Get new players out into 0.0 and get them mining, missioning and doing all the same old stuff BEFORE the attitude can set in and they'll stay out there because once you're used to living in 0.0, empire seems very bland.



This is in all honesty the best course of action. Some minor limitations to danger may be put in place and the limitations expire after lets say a month. From personal experience, everyone I know that got killed and podded very early on or lived in 0.0 within days/weeks of starting has an entirely different attitude towards the game than this "omg griefers everywhere" crowd.

Also, severely shrink high sec in size. Remove all lucrative npcing and make asteroids tiny. So tiny that a hulk pops one per single strip miner cycle. Remove ice. Factories and labs become hundred fold more expensive if you're older than 30 days. Limit poses to small and make them cost as much as large poses outside of high sec. Also put in some harsh cap on the market order update frequency if you're older than 30 days, like once per day and increase taxes. Do all that and then I don't give s **** any more if they ban the activation of weapons vs player in high sec.

People keep saying high sec is for noobs. What I've mentioned above is perfectly fine for noobs. Noobs don't fly hulks. The career noobs, retards and blatant isk farmers can un-noob themselves or gtfo. They contribute nothing to the game anyway.

To get people out of high sec, it really has to become a pathetic place to live beyond your noob years. The attitude now is wtf do I need to leave high sec? I got everything here. In fact give me more and make it even easier. Roll Living outside of high sec needs to become the default natural progression.


Wow, you're about as braindead as they come. For the sake of EVE's intellectual reputation please stop posting. Jesus Christ, i've never had the misfortune of reading such absolutely idiotic tripe.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#270 - 2012-05-12 12:37:41 UTC
Tarsus Zateki wrote:
Negative reinforcement is never an answer to a problem like this. Nerfing high-sec income, moving incursions or high level missions to lowsec, etc... will not convince people to move to those areas in any reasonable number. They will simply remain in high-sec and live with lesser incomes; or stop playing Eve, which is definitely not what we should want.

This issue isn't one of game design, but of players. There's a great deal of misunderstanding and misrepresentation among high-sec inhabitants in regards to null-sec (I won't discuss low-sec as I have little experience there) and that is our fault.

Null-sec players are seen as psychopaths that will murder them the second they jump into a 0.0 system, which is true. Null-sec alliances are seen as xenophobic, monolithic entities that they can never be a part of. This isn't true, and in fact many null-sec alliances will recruit anyone with a pulse, but the handful of alliances with insane recruitment policies have poisoned the well. Everyone just assumes outright that they won't get in so they don't try. Null-sec is viewed as unreachable by newbies which is utterly ridiculous as often proven by my own alliance, but we're the exception not the rule. Null-sec inhabitants seem to love harping on about how no one has a place in null-sec until they've suffered in empire for two years first.

All of this is reinforced by the common "****-You-Got-Mine" attitude often seen in null-sec alliances. Other than a small handful of alliances which are held together by factors outside of Eve-Online, most null-sec alliances are just lose groupings of people who are only interested in their own self gain. Look at alliances that have been destroyed by other null-sec powers, nearly all of them fall to pieces from within long before their territory has been conquered. Very few alliances have any sort of social system in place or method or redistributing alliance wealth to their members. There are no systems in place for fostering and mentoring newbies. There's no firm cultural image that makes a person care about their alliance over themselves.

Why the hell would anyone want to go into null-sec knowing that they're just a warm body making some CEO fat tax income stacks. Knowing they will be abandoned the moment any sort of conflict comes to their space. Knowing that the people in their corp and alliance chats have no interest in anyone else's success.

Eve is a sandbox with a loose rule set that leaves all the real content in our hands. Its up to players to make null-sec inviting to other players, not CCP.
Selinate
#271 - 2012-05-12 13:57:16 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
I'm getting a bit tired of repeating myself, but the reason hisec people stay in hisec isn't because they fear PvP. They fear gatecamps. They die to impossible odds right at the door to the full PvP areas, without having a chance to even explore them.

If they could get in and out of full PvP areas relatively safely, then only have to worry about someone hunting them while they are there, many, many, more people would be outside of hisec.

Gates need to go, or be changed so they can't be camped. They are the core problem here. I know many people hate the idea of losing their easymode gatecamp PvP, and having to actively search for targets instead of them landing in their lap, but it's really what's best for the game.


This is only really true for null sec more than low sec, once gate camps and those annoying slingshot bubbles start being used.

For low sec, I've gotten a barely tanked T1 hauler into Rancer before through a gatecamp. It's not that hard to get around gate camps in low, and the reward is generally a good bit higher.
Selinate
#272 - 2012-05-12 14:02:53 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
Darth Tickles wrote:
Anything less than that, I think you're better off elsewhere, I imagine WHs are similar.

WHs are the opposite of casual:

in 0.0 you can log in, undock your ratting ship and earn some isk if nothing else is going on - even if you have to leave after 15 minutes you still haven't wasted your time, if nobody else is online it's all the better.

In WHs you can do nothing when your corp isn't online (other than scanning out sites in hope that more people will come online later) - solo play is flat out impossible.

I haven't been in a wormhole corp myself but was in alliance with a former wh corp - they had moved into their C5 with high hopes and for the first 1-2 weeks everything went great - the scheduled PvE ops (daily) had high attendance and everybody made a lot of ISK.

Then came a period of low attendance and they could only get 2-3 people online at a time - and those 2-3 people could do nothing but sit around fiddling their thumbs and wait for another 3 people to log in. They weren't just less effective when they didn't get enough members, they were not able to do anything at all on their own.

By the time the other players returned those that had spent way too much time doing nothing (when they wanted to earn money for the capitals/supers they had set their eyes upon) had quit in frustration and the problem continued.

Eventually they gave up their big hopes, pulled down the POS and moved to 0.0 (for pvp) and high-sec (for incursions).


Well this is completely false. If they were twiddling their thumbs while not enough members were online for C5 sites, then they weren't too bright. Find a WH to a C3 or C2, they could make isk. Look for a connection to some empty null system in the middle of nowhere, go screw around in there for a while. Find a connection to a hostile wormhole or null space where some mining op is going on, go screw with them.

This is what I do usually when I log into Eve...
Tub Chil
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#273 - 2012-05-12 14:05:35 UTC
Remove l4 missions-incursions-non veldspar ore from hisec
forbid players older than 3 months to join npc corps
tax hi sec manufacturing

but I understand that it's impossible, ccp will lose 60% of subscribers, so never mind...
Duvida
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#274 - 2012-05-12 16:05:48 UTC
Tub Chil wrote:
Remove l4 missions-incursions-non veldspar ore from hisec
forbid players older than 3 months to join npc corps
tax hi sec manufacturing

but I understand that it's impossible, ccp will lose 60% of subscribers, so never mind...



I think you've touched on a core aspect that most of the 'graduation plan' promoters have missed, when trying to 'force' high-sec people to either go to null or leave the game.

A 9% drop in subscriptions last summer predicated a 20% layoff of staff at CCP. In addition to human-related expenses, there are likely 'non-fireable' expenses that can't just be laid off (bills, obligations of other types). So if CCP were to take this thread too seriously and start an all-out null push, I doubt the company would come anywhere close to 60% of subscriber loss before the company doors would close.

As to the idea of 'the people that leave will be replaced with the right type of people', it apparently wasn't happening fast enough to prevent high-sec from becoming the population center of the EVE galaxy before.

My basic hope is that CCP is looking at player actions whenever they consider regulars posting on the forums.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#275 - 2012-05-12 16:13:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:
As many that play this game know, there is an underlying issue that plagues EVE and that is that null and low sec players wish to have more high sec players join them in those areas of the game. This topic has been discussed in hundreds of threads across a wide spectrum of topics and often ends with neither side conceding ground. So the question is....

1) If you were CCP, how would you get more players involved in 0.0 space and low sec - without compromising or getting rid of high sec completely?

Or...

2) Would you just rather see high sec completely removed? If that is the case, how would you introduce new players into the harsh realities of a game where they can be ganked on sight just for joining the game?

3) If you believe that high sec, low sec and 0.0 can co-exist, what is your solution to bringing balanced game play to 0.0, low and high sec space that is amiable to all concerned?

If you could answer these questions I am sure there are people that would love to hear your answers.

they dont want them to join them they want them to go there so they can hunt them. Its obvious in every suggestion of "move lvl 4s to null/low" "move ice to null/low" "move minerals to null/low" "move incursions to null/low"

Duvida wrote:


As to the idea of 'the people that leave will be replaced with the right type of people', it apparently wasn't happening fast enough to prevent high-sec from becoming the population center of the EVE galaxy before.

My basic hope is that CCP is looking at player actions whenever they consider regulars posting on the forums.


a.) if the "right type" were getting into the game, there wouldnt be special restrictions for scamming/killing in noob areas

b) so you think a "see what they do not what they say" approach is best?
Irony

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#276 - 2012-05-12 16:28:08 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Tarsus Zateki wrote:
Negative reinforcement is never an answer to a problem like this. Nerfing high-sec income, moving incursions or high level missions to lowsec, etc... will not convince people to move to those areas in any reasonable number. They will simply remain in high-sec and live with lesser incomes; or stop playing Eve, which is definitely not what we should want.


wait what? You think for yourself? Isnt that discouraged by use of direct brain stimulation (electro shock) and brain implants?
You guys are usuall the ones PUSHING for that BS

Quote:

This issue isn't one of game design, but of players. There's a great deal of misunderstanding and misrepresentation among high-sec inhabitants in regards to null-sec (I won't discuss low-sec as I have little experience there) and that is our fault.

Null-sec players are seen as psychopaths that will murder them the second they jump into a 0.0 system, which is true. Null-sec alliances are seen as xenophobic, monolithic entities that they can never be a part of. This isn't true, and in fact many null-sec alliances will recruit anyone with a pulse, but the handful of alliances with insane recruitment policies have poisoned the well. Everyone just assumes outright that they won't get in so they don't try. Null-sec is viewed as unreachable by newbies which is utterly ridiculous as often proven by my own alliance, but we're the exception not the rule. Null-sec inhabitants seem to love harping on about how no one has a place in null-sec until they've suffered in empire for two years first.


Dude your own alliance has a reputation for BEING one of those "xenophobic, monolithic entities that they can never be a part of" other than being a target of. On another alt I joked I wanted to be a part of Goons in a "if you cant beat em join em" and I got no less than six in game mails as to how you guys dont recruit from in game and how "if youre ever offered anything from Goons run. Especially recruitment. You BUILT that reputation, as well as all the other threads that get posted here with stories of Goons scamming them and those are never helped by the tons of Goons that then troll that thread with comments like "A Goon scammed you? NO..."

Quote:

[u][i][b]All of this is reinforced by the common "****-You-Got-Mine" attitude often seen in null-sec alliances. Other than a small handful of alliances which are held together by factors outside of Eve-Online, most null-sec alliances are just lose groupings of people who are only interested in their own self gain.

...again, like yours lol


[/quote]

I agree to a point but look to your own house before you try to comment on others'

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#277 - 2012-05-12 16:58:56 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Funny how "the novelty wore off" at the exact same time as the anom nerf


Never done an anomaly in 0.0 Oops
I'd stayed in hi sec if I wanted to shoot red crosses you know.

But hey, as I posted above, it's 0.0 players who flip their alts back and from hi sec, NOT hi sec players.

The problem with this statement is the artificial division between players who are based in 0.0 and players in 0.5+. They are all players subject to the same risk/reward decisions. All available data backs up my claim that most players simply follow the money, whether it's the huge drop in 0.0 occupancy when CCP nerfed anomalies, or the inflation of highsec dwellers when Incursions were made available.

But since you're still determined to disagree, let me ask you something.

During this latest Hulkageddon, CCP Diagoras posted that lowsec mining has nearly doubled, while highsec mining has sharply declined. Have these "highsec" miners made a calculated risk/reward decision, like I claim, or are they as you claim - lowsec miners all along?
Wilma Lawson
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#278 - 2012-05-12 17:38:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Wilma Lawson
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
[quote=Nicolo da'Vicenza]Funny how "the novelty wore off" at the exact same time as the anom nerf

During this latest Hulkageddon, CCP Diagoras posted that lowsec mining has nearly doubled, while highsec mining has sharply declined. Have these "highsec" miners made a calculated risk/reward decision, like I claim, or are they as you claim - lowsec miners all along?

Seems to me this supports that hypothesis. I mean the whole discussion is how pathetic high sec miners are and how inept and unknowledgeable they are of low/null sec.. Now all of a sudden,they move to low/null without problems, without complaints and manage to double mining capacity in low/null?

It can't be both they are incompetent and they are capable. Which is it?

TBH, jumping one's low/null sec clones makes more sense. They already have the contacts and resources in place to move their mining with little impact on mining capacity.
Sycho Pathic
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#279 - 2012-05-13 12:22:08 UTC
Dante Regulas wrote:
Wilma Lawson wrote:
Dante Regulas wrote:
Because there are far more minerals to mine and rats to harvest.

And yet this doesn't seem to draw people there. Why not?

Dante Regulas wrote:
And not all null/low people hate highseccers, we hate their "give me more, while limiting my interaction" attitudes (MOAR reward for less time put in). And the answer is nerfing highsec. You need more incentive to risk more. If all you want to do is mine by yourself, why dont you play Farmville?

Well I hate your attitude of knowing what all highseccers are like. Again, not a selling point to be insulting people. I don't much like your attitude of you have to come to low/null sec because....?

How do you know what I do in highsec? Why do you say I mine by myself? You don't even know what I do. You're making assumptions, you're not engaging your audience and your audience doesn't care for you, and your audience now doesn't want to move to low/null sec. So again, you lose. If your purpose is to get people to move to low/null sec, then do so in a positive way. Otherwise, all I'm left with is that all low/null seccers are big jerks. Not the sort of people I want to spend time with in a game.


Quote:
You know, my main's corp regularly recruits from highsec, and we are a good group of people, and as such, not everyone posting in here is representative of null.

And yet, no information on this main and their corp and how to contact them. Why is that? Again, if you want to convince people to move to low/null sec, make it as easy and be as helpful as possible.

Otherwise, why in the universe would I want to hang out with a bunch of jerks in a game I play to relax and have fun?



Because currently, you can run incursions all day and make billions. Hence, nerf highsec.

And I know the attitudes of highseccers cause I once was one. Miners are the worst in highsec, they dont learn how to fit their ships properly, and when they do, they dont activate the modules and mine afk, and come crying to you when you gank their hulk, because even concord couldnt save them. EVE is a game of risk vs reward, planning and outcomes. It is THE thinking man and woman's MMO.

And I use an alt to post here, and sometimes my main. Its just not information I give out freely, unless you show some interest. Again, Id love to bring you into my corp and show you how your perception of null is off from what it really is.



Yet you ignore a very real issue.

Null tends to be represented by a very loud, vocal and annoying group of people.
The kind of people with *copious* time on their hands who live and breath this nonsense.
The game does not generate enough ISK to make those people worth putting up with.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#280 - 2012-05-13 12:25:53 UTC
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:
If you were CCP


Then I'd nerf threads like this.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.