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How do you pay corp mates for ops?

Author
deathops barrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-05-10 14:24:01 UTC
We normally split it by person

Salvager gets a equal share since they help get the loot faster. Scouts are normally my alt and another persons alt so they dont get extra isk since its same person, but otherwise we would give them a share.

We send a evemail to the directors with the tags/nanos from the sites we run and who was in the fleet, then when a director goes and sells the loot, he pays everyone in a fleet equally from nanos/tags equally and the metal scraps/other salvage are his to keep as payment for transporting the loot. I also throw the numbers into a public google docs so everyone can see it and say if they have a problem with the isk etc. and to make sure me/another director does a stupid thing and miscount... very fun to be missing 600m worth of loot because it was in the wrong tab and you are 20jumps from the hole.
Oxandrolone
Unlimited Liabilities LLC
#22 - 2012-05-10 14:37:43 UTC
we use a custom built website which people enter what loot they got from ops into the site, they then place it into a certain tab in a certain hanger. once the guy who manages it enough gets enough hassle he runs the stuff to k-space to sell it. the corp taxes its tax cut then everyone gets paid out. saves constantly having to have k-space exits so people can ferry out blue loot every day.

you can always use google docs to keep track of the loot
Ashimat
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-05-10 15:51:02 UTC
7enn wrote:
Keep it SIMPLE and TRANSPARENT. I've suffered under the various points systems. PLEX POINTS SUX. It's easy for directors to skim and they do. The TL points system is a perfect example. I've witnessed how little folks get paid under it. Their payout systems vary from corp to corp and I won't tell you which one skims and which ones don't. Join them and figure it out yourself. [don't get you panties wadded up kobo it's true for one corp and we both know it - afk directors used to make billions]

Who are you then? Maybe post with a main?

The point system that was/is in use in Transmission Lost and that Koboderas app implemented have its roots in the idea that the managers/corp-leadership do not want to spend half their time in excel/google-docs to make fair payouts. We also wanted to make it as easy as possible for anyone to step up and "FC" a plexing-fleet, using that tool. The tool also provide a lot of transparency, showing who did what and what got payed.

The thinking, point-system and the use of an application to do it actually pre-dates the alliance. It was in use by SPLU before TL was founded. Actually, SPLUs single function was to act as service-organization to the plexers, it was in the DNA of the corp not to tax or take more than needed of the plexers. SPLU was never rich (and if you knew just how little we invested in corporate defenses like dreads you would kick yourself for not giving that eviction a try Cool) . We didn't even pay people working hard with stuff like recruitment and organization. Everybody worked pro-bono.

SPLU was a service-organization created to make individual pilots rich. When we started we had the goal of actually doing C6 plexing on a regular basis. When we accomplished that, the goal was extended to do it and get back un-ganked...

But after we learnt that, we failed setting a new goal. Thats most likely the reason why the corp is not around today.

Sorry for the article guys, but some background-info was clearly needed.

More on topic, and as an example of the opposite way of doing things: Reconfiguration Nation, the smallest of TLs corps, don't do it at at. Help divide loot/ISK that is. We have 0% tax, no fees and whatever you make on plexing/PI is yours to keep. instead, we occasionally (atm pretty often tbh) do corp-ops with the goal of raising funds for common projects, and then we keep it all. The corp have it's focus on other things.

Got blog: http://thecloakedones.blogspot.com

7enn
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-05-10 15:54:52 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
7enn wrote:
There are 2 real assets associated with eve. Your subscription fee and the time you put into the game. We pay per player for his time. If anything the noctis should get double. DPS boob locks, hits f1/fire and that target is done. So 2 actions per target. Noctis hero locks, tractors, loots, salvages. That's 2x the 'work' per item processed. DPS can actually go afk and get a drink and come back and no one may ever know - they have the easiest job in pve. Pay the salvagers for more work and the logi and scouts for the real work.


You forgot the risk in your equation, ship price as well as the clone and implant costs. The dps pilots usually risk the most expensive ships. A blown-up noctis can be even bigger ISK-wise, but only a fraction of that belongs to the Noctis pilot.

Also, any newbie can salvage, but not everyone can fly a usable combat ship. As in real life, better qualification should pay better.

This is not even unfair imho because why and for what does a new player need as much ISK as a veteran? He has limited options in terms of ships and stuff to spend his money on. I know of guys who as newbies made billions salvaging in our hole before they were even able to do C1s on their own. I have no problems with that, but I do think it's fairly generous.



Spoke like a true senior guy that wants to keep the little guy down. Your blade is double edged, but perhaps you did not notice. As the little/new guy risks/needs little great risk to a great man should also mean little. Using percentages [the great equalizer of tyrants] the risk of a mere battleship to one so great and awesome as yourself should be of no consequence. The way you speak of your generosity toward your underlings makes me laugh. Fair is not divided or apportioned. Fair simply is. If you need to explain or justify fair.... it is not.

For those suffering under cyphered plex points or directors that have an odd sense of fair - hit me up via eve mail. Your noctis carries equal weight to my carrier/nightmare/nightmare where we fly free and fair.
7enn
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-05-10 16:02:12 UTC
Welcome back Ashi, missed you dude. All the wheels fell off your wagon soon after you left. I blame me. How was prison?

Oh, and it's not SPLU. It's complexicorp w/ all their high end tax code that underpaid their players. Don't you dare tell who this is!
Murashu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2012-05-10 16:03:40 UTC
We have one person salvage all the loot, drop the loot and a bookmark with all participants name in a container which then goes into a secure tab in the CHA. Every day or two we have one of the Directors take all the loot outside and transport it off to a market hub. Once everything is safe and sound at a hub, the value is calculated in a simple google doc and everyone is paid for the sites they participated in minus 5% corp tax.

We keep adding new copies of the google doc for every op we run so anyone with the link can go online and see how much they are earning and if they really have trust issues, they can compare the amount they were paid out for to the loot history. I'm sure there are better ways, but this system works well for us and can easily covers the cost of fuel for multiple POSs each month even if we didn't mine our own ice and have our own PI program.
Ashimat
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-05-10 16:04:26 UTC
7enn wrote:
Fair is not divided or apportioned. Fair simply is. If you need to explain or justify fair.... it is not.

Agree.

The problem thou, is that fair is far from uncomplicated. And keeping a system transparent, uncomplicated and fair is a very tricky thing. There will always be someone who thinks it could be done differently. But no one have to "suffer under system". I'm assuming you are free to leave any corp whenever you want.

Got blog: http://thecloakedones.blogspot.com

Kyros Xero
Xuronautics
#28 - 2012-05-10 16:08:18 UTC
Radelix Cisko wrote:
A secure CHA division only accessible to myself and directors was the idea I was going to run with for salvage and expensive goodies.

So to recap:

Take loot
Cash out corpies
Haul loot to trade hub
Profit

We do something similar to this, except to ease administration we don't "cash out" until loot is sold (generally once a week), and we track loot pool shares in a forum thread after sites are run. As a fairly laid back corp I like the system because it allows anyone to take the initiative to run sites solo or small gang and there is minimal paperwork or red tape.

For our purposes, we count shares per human at the keyboard. If you're actively contributing you get an equal share like everyone else, and ALTs improve profitabiltiy of the group as a whole.

Here is the explanatory snippet from our relevant thread. (The thread mentions "missions or combat sites", but in practice we don't really do missions anymore. If we did, we would probably have seperate loot pools for missions/w-space so the w-space loot wasn't "diluted")

Quote:
For WH-based and Fleet Ops, the Division 4 hangar is used to store the group loot pool. Group loot is dumped into the hangar, and when it is sold the ISK is distributed according to how much each pilot contributed towards the group pool. Gas/Mining "loot" is also stored in Division 4, but is tracked in it's own thread.

Every mission or combat site ran is 1 full share, split among however many pilots participated.

For example, if a trio of pilots run two Anomalies (2 shares total) together, then the salvager puts the loot in Div 4 hangar and the fleet leader adds a post recording the pilot's names and that each earned 2/3 shares from the op.

This system is much simpler than trying to keep specific loot straight for every different mission or fleet night, but still splits things proportionate to how many sites each person ran. Loot from sites completed solo, should still be thrown into the pool with the pilot recording a full 1 share for each site completed. The exception is solo work out of k-space, where it is up to the pilot whether to participate in the loot pool or take care of selling on their own.

Remember: Either way, loot pool or individually sold, the person who ends up selling the WH loot gives the corporation it's cut to help keep the shields up.
Ashimat
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-05-10 16:09:05 UTC
7enn wrote:
Welcome back Ashi, missed you dude. All the wheels fell off your wagon soon after you left. I blame me. How was prison?

I feel I have a chance here to either establish some rumor about a RL bad-ass persona, or maybe make a joke about girls not telling their real age...

A fek, I blew it, didn't I?

Got blog: http://thecloakedones.blogspot.com

7enn
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-05-10 16:12:33 UTC
Yeap
Mr Majestyk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-05-10 16:26:44 UTC
We do it as a point system with google docs. Every character that participates gets a share allowing for multiple characters per player. Everything then gets taxed. All of this is visible to any member that wishes to see it.

-As to the point of directors skimming. If a director wants to take money it will happen one way or another. Has nothing to do with your payment method.
Juan Sezole
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-05-10 16:41:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Juan Sezole
7enn wrote:
Yeap



Logi as well as Salvage anyway. DPS just hits F1, but Logi helps them just press F1 lol
Radelix Cisko
JUMP DRIVE ACTIVE
#33 - 2012-05-10 19:20:32 UTC
Thanks for all the responses. We are currently in a transition period where a few members including myself are mending our carebear ways. We do have a PVP'er on staff that is training us and I'm the resident bureaucratic. I have implemented some of these ideas already and I am liking the idea of switching to dues to pay the POS bills and upgrades. I did try something different such as if someone wanted to bring in a structure such as a lab they get the right to run the module exclusively for a short period and a cut of the usage fee to make their isk back This has resulted in us getting various arrays and a lab and hasn't worked out poorly.

Again thanks for the responses

Despite my posting prowess I really am terrible at this game

IGNATIUS HOOD
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2012-05-10 19:43:47 UTC
We have one of the corp wallet tabs set aside for our WH. All Salvage and Mining profits go in here. Tower fuel expenses come from this account and the net ISK is divvied up equally among denziens.

We also try to maintain a pretty sizable reserve of cash in that account in case we need to buy infrastructure or purchse/replace WH specific ships. Barges, Nocti, and the occasional Indy do get blapped and need replacing. Bear
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."   --H.L. Mencken
Ryday
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2012-05-10 19:55:41 UTC
5% tax is more than enough. Most active corpies should bring in over 1b per month in any wormhole. Hence, eight active members should be enough to fuel one large pos.

Mining mats are big so often enough it's left up to the member to actively pay tax on it. PI is easy since you just set the CO tax rate. Sleeper loot is usually where the rub is. The best way is to use a web application with a backend datastore that harnesses the ingame browser to track people. At the end of the week, payout should simply be a list of people and how much the corp owes them. Anything more on the corp officer's end is too much and often leads to burnout.
Frothgar
Moosearmy
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#36 - 2012-05-10 20:42:16 UTC
Its also worth saying, if you're having issues with people, its either because they aren't invested in your corp, or the corp isn't invested in them. It should be very easy to have good director coverage in the times things are being run. If your directors aren't the most connected, most active members of the corp, or even the ones most involved in running the sites, you have the wrong people running the corp.

Nobody wants to be in a corp where the directors are rarely on and they always make it clear that its "Their" corp. Good management is present, and connected, and if its doing its job well, people hardly notice becuase there part of the process, and feedback is immediate and automatic.

If you're having problems with people, its a people issue, and the difficulty lies either with you or them.

Not meaning to sound harsh, but good corp management can make boring things agreealbe, passive, and almost relaxing, and bad corp management can make fun things seem tedious, hostile, micromanaged and infuriating.

Example: Corp members running Gas sites and director chimes in "Where is my money biatch!!!" Bad management.

Example #2: Corp members running Gas sites, Director is on coms shooting the **** with them, harvesting the gas with them, talking about fleet comps, asking for ideas, immediately cashes out the corp members from the corp wallet as soon as the site is done. Good management.

Finally: Your corp doesn't mean your resources. There should be some pretty clear expectations as to what resources fall into the domain of the corp, and which things do not. If the corp is running sites in the corp's wormhole, then its beyond question the corp gets a cut.

If people want to run sites in your static, I think many folks will have differing opinions on if this is in the corp's domain, and if it would have the right to demand a cut. Granted if the corp is cashing out the op, then the corp should have a share (5%) but if people are just scanning down radar/mag sites in other people's wormholes, I think it might spark conflict to demand something that you effectively provided no services to earn.

Just my $1.99
Radelix Cisko
JUMP DRIVE ACTIVE
#37 - 2012-05-10 21:02:44 UTC
Frothgar wrote:


the previous text




I agree with what you said and I and the director have been making strides to have the hole feel like home. As I said earlier it is a transition time for the corp and in RL for some of the members with school and some are moving so availability is sometimes spotty. At least one of us tries to be on to be there to handle ops and general issues that arise. I have of course welcomed people gathering diversified skillsets. Also in relation to the one corp member whom I was having issues with has rectified the issue that the director and I took umbrage at.

Despite my posting prowess I really am terrible at this game

Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#38 - 2012-05-10 21:16:19 UTC
7enn wrote:
Spoke like a true senior guy that wants to keep the little guy down. Your blade is double edged, but perhaps you did not notice. As the little/new guy risks/needs little great risk to a great man should also mean little. Using percentages [the great equalizer of tyrants] the risk of a mere battleship to one so great and awesome as yourself should be of no consequence. The way you speak of your generosity toward your underlings makes me laugh. Fair is not divided or apportioned. Fair simply is. If you need to explain or justify fair.... it is not.

For those suffering under cyphered plex points or directors that have an odd sense of fair - hit me up via eve mail. Your noctis carries equal weight to my carrier/nightmare/nightmare where we fly free and fair.


My corpmates said something similar, so it was never done my way. Heh.

.

Coolsmoke
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-05-11 03:45:49 UTC
Corp members on an op are responsible for divvying up their loot at the end. Corp buys all mnr's, datacores, relics etc. from them at 10% below Jita Buy price (saves them having to haul it) which we use for T3 production (ie. profit).

They sell the blue loot themselves.

Seems to work well, never a complaint in 3 years.
Marsan
#40 - 2012-05-11 05:05:55 UTC
One way to prevent loot from being stolen is to put it in a small container, name it with the date (or what ever), then drop it in a corp hanger. Corp members need special rights to remove or open containers.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.