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Should projectiles still be the only ones doing all 4 dmg types?
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Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#21 - 2012-05-09 14:00:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
In the spirit of the hybrid weapons type being a fusion of projectile and energy weapons it think some changes need to be made. For one the mix of therm and ken should very more between ammo types some doing more therm than ken in some. Also I think hybrid weapon T2 ammo should have a little of a 3ed type thrown in, EM for one or both of the blaster ammo(s) and Explosive for one or both of the rail T2 ammo(s) this would give more of a projectile feel to the weapons. As it is now the only projectile like thing about hybrids is there larger per unit ammo. The energy side of things using 1/2 the cap as a lasor, reloading 2X faster, and being restricted to just 2 types of damage is fine. The reasoning on the T2 ammo adding a little of a 3ed is that none of the others do that as of yet so this could then be given to hybrid weapons as kind there thing.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Ayeshah Volfield
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-05-09 14:17:42 UTC
Isn't explosive energy just a combination of thermal and kinetic energy though ?

Never understood why it exists as a separate kind of energy in this game.

EVE is what happens when the rule of law does not apply and Darwinism is allowed to run freely.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#23 - 2012-05-09 14:33:05 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
You mean apart from Drones and Missiles, I presume?



I'd put missiles for sure but never drones. Those being a very poor man choice because of all their drawbacks due to coding, lag, and a lot of funky stuff you already know.

This said, I don't see any valid reason why a third dmg type can't be added to lasers or hybrids, this doesn't have to be on top of existent ones but should be a possible choice.

Like add Explosive dmg to lasers and Em to hybrids. If we start thinking about for a while this is something absolutely possible but, bringing reality in a game it's not the good thing to go.
Then the question remains, why projectiles can do it all when only missiles should be able to?


Its intended to be done with drones, and no if I am flying a megathron in a situation where my damage type matters, lag is not an issue, nor is the travel time of berserkers. I can get a megathron to do roughly 500kin, 500 therm and 300 explosive dps, and thats good enough. For fleet engagements, I don't believe damage type is that important, most targets will be spectrum tanked.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2012-05-09 16:30:27 UTC
Ayeshah Volfield wrote:
Isn't explosive energy just a combination of thermal and kinetic energy though ?

Never understood why it exists as a separate kind of energy in this game.


I like to imagine a Kinetic missile not actually exploding, but just pounding into the bulk of the enemy ship.

"KAPLOFF!"

Maybe we should mold a metallic fist at the front of those missiles!

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#25 - 2012-05-09 17:03:28 UTC
Hakaimono wrote:


Just about anything can be loaded into a projectile.



So why should hybrids be restricted, they are firing projectiles after all.

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bubble trout
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2012-05-09 17:55:05 UTC
Darthewok wrote:
The way to do it is to reduce the proportion of damage that can be varied by ammo types for Minmatar.
For example EMP ammo is
10.35 EM
2.3 Kinetic
1.15 Explosive
That is 75% EM damage




This is a downside that people tend to forget, projectiles don't have "pure" damage types. I'm not shooting 300 DPS at your EM hole, I'm shooting 275 DPS at it, and 75 at your 1st and 2nd highest. Still best to shoot EMP, but not as OP as people tend to believe.


Quote:
Change it to something like
8 EM
5.8 Explosive
Something like 58% EM damage

So let Projectiles continue to be able to switch a lower portion damage types, but not to such a large degree. For example 60% not 75% and tie the damage more to explosive.


I don't know about THAT much, but small changes of the percentages is a good thing to be looked at by the devs for balancing purposes. If needed that is.Smile EMP is also the odd man out for the close range ammos, having three damage types instead of 2 like fusion/plasma.

Beyond that, projectiles don't have a kinetic heavy high damage round. Do they really need it though? I guess for T2 minmatar ships that are shield tanked, or sheild/armor tankers that plug their threm/em and exp holes (respectively) it would be "nice" to have. Then again ACs having a larger optimal would be "nice" also :P.

For hybrids I think the layout of the ammo variants should be reconsidered. Is it really useful to have ammo that has -25% optimal and one with -37% optimal with a small cap usage and damage difference? Or would it be better game-play-wise to have 2 types of ammo with only the damage types switched by 20-30%? That would allow for going a bit heavy with threm shooting most shield tanks, and kinetic for armor.

I don't think that would be good for lasers though. Maybe for each tier of optimal range have one with less cap/damage, and one higher powered crystal and more cap useage? IDK, probably a bad idea.

Drones are all about more damage or faster flights(or ecm), and you can't (on non drone boats) choose which to use during a fight, short of battleship class.

Missiles are sort of weird, with some caldari ships receiving that kinetic damage bonus, even though they can choose to use a "pure" damage type against a resit hole a lot of the time it's just better to use kinetic. Pure dps bonuses would help, but it might remove their race's "flavor".

In the end though of the 5 weapon systems the 3 that have "selectable damage types"(projectiles, drones, and missiles) have the longest switch times(drones flight time back to ship and relaunch, missiles and projectiles 10 seconds reload). The 2 that don't really they have lower reload times (0 for lasers, 5 for hybrids).

/rambling of someone who probably doesn't know what he is talking about.

@op, real life physics and roleplaying should never come before gameplay. Ever. If the devs think that the game would be better off if lasers shot exp, or omni damage, or pink unicorns then that should be done.
Copine Callmeknau
Dirty Vagrants
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#27 - 2012-05-09 18:15:31 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Hakaimono wrote:
I only open this for discussion. My personal belief is that it should stay the same because you know....physics and stuff.

Think about it in real life for a moment. How would a laser deal kinetic or explosive damage?



How does a projectile round deal EM damage? Or thermal?

You could read the item description of those ammo's?
Not even very sci-fi


Minmatar is the Conan of EVE Online.

Conan's setting is "low fantasy" and Minmatar's tech "low sci-fi".

If you get my drift. And when you can find me an EM round in reality, then you can make the argument that they are not "very sci-fi".

Ya definitely low sci-fi, I'll agree there

As far as EM round, uhhh for complex examples I believe there are some artillery shells that are capable of having a tactical nuke as a warhead.
But if you want a real simple example, all you'd need to do is make your projectile out of any radioisotope. It'll emit EM radiation until it decays.

I don't really think you want a situation where I pump so much radioisotopes into your ship that you continue to lose health after the fight is over though, do you? Best not let too much reality in the game

There should be a rather awesome pic here
Perihelion Olenard
#28 - 2012-05-09 20:58:51 UTC
Projectiles doing EM damage = photon torpedoes Big smile
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#29 - 2012-05-09 21:05:58 UTC
In any Eve discussion that mentions physics I think it is important to remember that CCP ignores physics at a whim and if they did not projectiles would be absolutley worthless outside small blaster range, think about it. The rather inpressive 16 inch (~400mm) navy guns of World War II fires a 1 metric ton shell at 825 m/s, pretty impressive in the real world. In space all MW BCs and some MW BS could fly along aside the shell. SO lets suppose the Minnies got really cool propellant from the Jovians and superior metalurgy and were able to quadruple that velocity, so 3300 m/s, this means at 13km you would have close to a 4 second delay to dodge that shell which would continue to move in a straight line. This is far from istaneous damage and make the complaints of missles having a hard time hiting fast moving ships almost minor in comparison

So if we want kinetic dealing lasers and CCP decides it is balanced we really do not have room to complain if we accepted the above nonsense.

(besides the recoil on the 800mm guns an their 8 metric ton shells, with the above listed muzzle velocity would be enormous the "weld and duct tape" Minnie ships would fall apart after repeated firings) P
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-05-09 21:16:15 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
What I would ALSO like to see was tracking enhancer fall-off bonus being reduced to 15% like their optimal bonus. The medium ACs are slaughtering frigates due to having the best tracking around with a huge fall-off projecting the damage way out where frigates are supposed to kite...


Blasters have better tracking and on many Gallente hulls are backed by a tracking bonus on top of it.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#31 - 2012-05-09 22:18:34 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Pinky Denmark wrote:
What I would ALSO like to see was tracking enhancer fall-off bonus being reduced to 15% like their optimal bonus. The medium ACs are slaughtering frigates due to having the best tracking around with a huge fall-off projecting the damage way out where frigates are supposed to kite...


Blasters have better tracking and on many Gallente hulls are backed by a tracking bonus on top of it.


And Caldari favor optimal range.

The Vulture has dual Optimal range bonus and a blaster vulture can get to over 10km optimal and outgun an Abso. Sleipner will beat them both because neither the Vulture or the Abso will get close enough to hurt it.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-05-09 22:32:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Ocih wrote:
And Caldari favor optimal range.

The Vulture has dual Optimal range bonus and a blaster vulture can get to over 10km optimal and outgun an Abso. Sleipner will beat them both because neither the Vulture or the Abso will get close enough to hurt it.


I was comparing blasters to projos in the anti-tackle role.

But if you want to talk about CSes, a Sleipnir will beat a Vulture because the Vulture is a fleet command ship going against the best field command ship in the game. The Sleipnir could sit at 0 on the Vulture and still win, easily.
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#33 - 2012-05-09 22:35:34 UTC
Yes, lets make all weapon types more similar! That will make this game so much better! Roll

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Masamune Dekoro
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-05-09 22:38:59 UTC
The only solution is to introduce a new damage type and pirate faction to go with it.

They could deal grape flavoured damage.

And then you could have lots of grape/**** puns.

Logical.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2012-05-10 00:11:49 UTC
I'd definitely support omni damage lasers if they had slightly reduced damage to compensate. Less damage I think would be a great compromise for the ability to do all types of damage with any ammo while only having to worry about tracking, cap, and range.

Being stuck with EM/Therm sucks.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Janet Patton
Brony Express
#36 - 2012-05-10 00:36:49 UTC
As a winmatar pilot I think its silly the projectiles do all these damage types, YET lack kinetic damage?

If anything, all projectile weapons should do majority of kinetic damage with secondary damage of explosive, emp, or thermal.

Also it seems like it makes more sense for Hybrid weapons to be the ones with multiple damage type options instead of projectiles.

Why do I have this sig? I don't smoke.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#37 - 2012-05-10 00:48:23 UTC
As soon as I have a scorch round for my ACs, you can have an explosive round for your lasers.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
VaJayJay69
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-05-10 01:18:46 UTC  |  Edited by: VaJayJay69
As a somewhat side note, I personally would find it to be more intersting to adjust the benefits and efficacy of omni tanking vs. tanking for specific damage types. Right now from a PVP aspect, expanding the availabilty of damage types to more weapon systems seems to further encourage omni resist profiles which is rather bland in my opinion. I would like to see a more comprehensive update to damage types, omni resist mods vs. type specific, and all the stuff that comes along with that. I understand it would be a massive change to the current metagame but would make for a much more robust and interesting combat.

Edit: more direct to the subject, I would find it more interesting if T2 ammo had some additional status effect on the target.
Dibblerette
Solitude-Industries
#39 - 2012-05-10 03:10:39 UTC
VaJayJay69 wrote:

Edit: more direct to the subject, I would find it more interesting if T2 ammo had some additional status effect on the target.


Careful, next thing you know we'll have poison, paralysis and toad on our hands. Seems kind of gimmicky tbh, I'd leave that to EWAR.

It WOULD be cool if some ammo effected your ship in positive ways. Imagine blaster ammo with a small web velocity bonus, or Barrage giving you a few extra m/s to kite. Laser crystals that reflect a little incoming EM/thermal damage would be neat, or maybe missiles that boost scan res or lock range.

It'd all be horribly OP of course Lol
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2012-05-10 03:33:49 UTC
Eh ?


How in the name of god would be the ammotype in the turrets change any of those statistics ? 0.o
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