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Jump Drives, breaking Eve for years
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Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#41 - 2012-05-08 22:32:28 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Infact, aside from the obvious off topic rant that is somehow related the major problem of EVE is the ******* human infestation that can't handle the human element and how that human element uses game mechanics to their advantage but the other side whines when it is used against them that it is somehow broken, unfair, overpowered, and they just cannot ******* adapt. Yeah, nerf the players out of the equation then the entire problem will fix itself.


This ~eleet titan peeveepee~ theory got thrown out the window when goons killed an erebus with gyrostabs; not that it wasn't obviously horseshit in the first place, it just become undeniably transparent after that hilarious debacle.
Basher Razbaz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-05-08 22:34:35 UTC
if you dont like it dont play you ******* cry babies

null sec isnt worth fighting over anymore anyways , population of eve tanked and with new mmos coming out i wouldnt worry about getting your convoys killed , im sure you arent hauling the old fashion way you are probably jumping it out

hell your jump freighter is probably named hypocrit

null sec is so safe now i autopilot 10+ jumps sometimes in a shuttle and watch sex videos

get a life you bunch of losers
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#43 - 2012-05-08 22:35:30 UTC
Darth Tickles wrote:
Aqriue wrote:
Infact, aside from the obvious off topic rant that is somehow related the major problem of EVE is the ******* human infestation that can't handle the human element and how that human element uses game mechanics to their advantage but the other side whines when it is used against them that it is somehow broken, unfair, overpowered, and they just cannot ******* adapt. Yeah, nerf the players out of the equation then the entire problem will fix itself.


This ~eleet titan peeveepee~ theory got thrown out the window when goons killed an erebus with gyrostabs; not that it wasn't obviously horseshit in the first place, it just become undeniably transparent after that hilarious debacle.

Well it doesn't matter when you're shooting subcaps I think. Still, pretty damn hilarious.

Besides I think the people in our mystical titan fleet now know to not fit the wrong damage mods to their titans Shocked

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#44 - 2012-05-08 22:43:04 UTC
I'm tired of beating this horse so I will refrain...

That said, yah teleportation destroyed the concept of logistics. To the guy up there saying nullsec isn't worth fighting for anymore... jump drives are a big factor in why that is. I haven't seen anything credible from CCP with regards to dealing with that since the small holding etc... discussions on the old forums though. Don't know what to tell ya.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#45 - 2012-05-08 22:44:56 UTC
Basher Razbaz wrote:
if you dont like it dont play you ******* cry babies

null sec isnt worth fighting over anymore anyways , population of eve tanked and with new mmos coming out i wouldnt worry about getting your convoys killed , im sure you arent hauling the old fashion way you are probably jumping it out

hell your jump freighter is probably named hypocrit

null sec is so safe now i autopilot 10+ jumps sometimes in a shuttle and watch sex videos

get a life you bunch of losers




I feel so browbeaten yet I enjoyed it. Oops

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Shian Yang
#46 - 2012-05-08 22:53:08 UTC
Greetings capsuleer,

I did a quick query against mapSolarSystems using [security] with a distinct count of [solarsystemid]. I have probably done this wrong as this is my first foray into the database, but from what I see it would appear there are:


  • 6000+ NULL security systems
  • ~820 low security systems
  • ~1100 high security systems


Considering the vast distances to be traversed would it not be sensible to use Jump Drive technology? It is interesting to read Alain E Topher's words on interstellar travel, penned in YC 105.

Regards,

Shian Yang
Freggan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-05-08 22:54:10 UTC
As far as I can tell eve and its mechanics have a lot to do with risk vs rewards and also very importantly interest level vs difficulty level. Most people may realize some things are purposely made more difficult to make sure the people who are most interested will be the ones with the most access. Everything in this game is about interest level vs difficulty e.g.if its not interesting you will give up, if its too difficult you will leave it alone eventually or even inspire you to get better.
Joran Dravius
Doomheim
#48 - 2012-05-08 22:56:10 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Actually I think that it should be the other way around, let ALL ships dial in system to system warps, the range of which depending on the usual factors (power, skills, rigs, implants, etc) and get rid of these crap gate mechanics entirely.

It would be the end of the gate camps and the "great wall of carebear" that locks down high sec into a carebear haven - and also locks down 0.0 into another carebear haven.


The gate camp is gone, replaced by the combat patrol. Warp bubbles become rare, replaced by the combat probe, and blobs will be replaced by small and medium gangs. Let the 0.0 overlords whose systems are deserted for weeks on end (I know, I trespass there often) actually have to patrol, watch, and defend "their" systems instead of lording it up from their thrones while renters sit on gank pipelines.

Oh to think of the opportunities and what it would unleash....


Agreed the current gate mechanic is a wall that prevents new players from leaving high sec, everyone wants more player to particiapte in PvP/low/null and yet the mechanic is the new participants have to be fodder first like some bizzare hazing ritual.


If you have half a clue it's trivially easy to get around camps.
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-05-08 22:56:22 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:

B) going somewhere far away involves a lot more than you realize. Scouting, spy reports, alt management, fuel logistics, setting up of safepoint POSes along the route and at the destination if a friendly station is unavailable (in terms of a deployment), etc. Essentially, every time you see a big fleet go a long distance fast, dozens to hundreds of man hours were involved to make that possible. Jumping blind makes you vulnerable. Hot drops are very risky.


And all of that could be resolved with a revision to the current movement mechanics.

Imagine instead of the dozens to hundreds of man hours setting up to cross the entirety of the universe, minutes to a perhaps a dozen man hours to the big fight, because no one is going that far and the fights are there. What's the point of the huge napfest except to preserve that ginormous logistical chain?

Smaller, more frequent and more involving fights. A more open 0.0. More targets.

What's not to like?
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#50 - 2012-05-08 23:03:26 UTC
Malphilos wrote:

And all of that could be resolved with a revision to the current movement mechanics.

Imagine instead of the dozens to hundreds of man hours setting up to cross the entirety of the universe, minutes to a perhaps a dozen man hours to the big fight, because no one is going that far and the fights are there. What's the point of the huge napfest except to preserve that ginormous logistical chain?

Smaller, more frequent and more involving fights. A more open 0.0. More targets.

What's not to like?


The CFC isn't all blue to each other because we're afraid of another entity taking our space. We're allies because we (usually) get along fantastically. We're a big dysfunctional family, even when we shoot each other its friendly. And we shoot each other a lot. FA, I'm lookin' at you.
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#51 - 2012-05-08 23:07:54 UTC
Again, people talking about things they don't know.

Both victorious coalitions from the last "great war" which just ended are in the process of internal resets, and the losing coalition has already cannibalized itself gloriously.

I think this whole perception of a "napfest" is coming from burn jita and hulkageddon. These are not some last resort entertainment for a deathly bored nullsec, they are aimed at ******* with hisec purely for the sake of ******* with hisec.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#52 - 2012-05-08 23:14:24 UTC
Joran Dravius wrote:
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Actually I think that it should be the other way around, let ALL ships dial in system to system warps, the range of which depending on the usual factors (power, skills, rigs, implants, etc) and get rid of these crap gate mechanics entirely.

It would be the end of the gate camps and the "great wall of carebear" that locks down high sec into a carebear haven - and also locks down 0.0 into another carebear haven.


The gate camp is gone, replaced by the combat patrol. Warp bubbles become rare, replaced by the combat probe, and blobs will be replaced by small and medium gangs. Let the 0.0 overlords whose systems are deserted for weeks on end (I know, I trespass there often) actually have to patrol, watch, and defend "their" systems instead of lording it up from their thrones while renters sit on gank pipelines.

Oh to think of the opportunities and what it would unleash....


Agreed the current gate mechanic is a wall that prevents new players from leaving high sec, everyone wants more player to particiapte in PvP/low/null and yet the mechanic is the new participants have to be fodder first like some bizzare hazing ritual.


If you have half a clue it's trivially easy to get around camps.




Yeah yeah yeah the usual stuff. Every time someone posts tips I have not seen before, I load up the disposable alt and try them and they work 70 to 80 percent of the time against the majority of campers who are quite dumb. The best campers will still get you, and economically, getting killed 20-30 percent of the time is usually not feasible UNLESS you are cannon fodder or renter in applicable member corporation.

I have more than half a clue, thanks.

My point about dialed in warp for all ships is that it helps break out beyond the wall. If any group could pinpoint any system they wanted to go to, for any reason, be it to get at resources or pad their killboards, they can do this better by not having to deal with gank pipelines for hours just to get blobbed in the end. I've done the lowsec live event incursions and some Eve Radio roams and it feels like a trip to Disney waiting in line for an hour for a 2 minute ride.

Naturally, the complaint out of 0.0 is about risk averse carebears and such, or lack of activity, but the present gate mechanic coupled with the "kill everything that moves" mentality is going to make those who like the abuse run out of ISK so even if they don't mind the score of methods to move about and getting killed, ending up in a rookie ship with no ISK will eventually have them back in high sec to earn a few bucks or in the high sec incursion/mission/market alt they need to accomodate stupid ship loss.

The latter part, "stupid ship loss" is a direct result of gate mechanics and "blob and get blobbed" tactics that also drive people back into high sec when they run out of ISK - something that is usually not the case for well run alliances that replace ships better - but this is not a feature that many players enjoy (admittedly Goons take care of their own very well).

Using wormholes is actually more tedious than the score of methods of travel in 0.0. A WH bridge can get you from 0.0 to empire in 10 minutes, or it can take a week. But using WH bridging keeps my ships in one peice whereby with the disposable alt, using a cheapy frig, can last a few days using the best methods but still it's all over when that bubble is right on top of the gate and there are a half dozen T2 ships waiting and being the first customer stat-wise didn't show a red system for ship kills - and that's because yes, the campers had nothing better to do but wait all day for one frigate.

For that reason, point to point dialed in warp will be good for everybody. While I can avoid camps and not have to suffer the loss of being caught in them, it's obvious that those sitting in the camps are also suffering from these crappy mechanics.

It's time for gates, or the reliance on them, to go. A good time will be had by all.

(Remove local too and see some sparks fly).

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Internet Lawyer Steve
Doomheim
#53 - 2012-05-08 23:14:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Internet Lawyer Steve
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:


Now, I am sure there are a few limiting factors like capacitor recharge, system loading time, and other things. But it is possible to go from one end of Eve to the other in less time than it takes a frigate to make 15 jumps and cross a part.. a PART... of High Sec.



Internet Lawyer Steve on the scene...


You are forgetting some stuff here. You would have to refuel several times during the trip. With 1000 people jumping you will run in to TiDi which in return would slow you down even more. I would suggest you actually try doing that with 1000 people and try to keep everyone logged in and not dropping every jump. Also your cap recharge time is a bit off. It would take longer due to 1000 people not having the exact skill set. Not to mention all the time it would take to move the cynos in to position. Plus not everyone will have JDV. So your route planner, if set for JDV, needs to amended.

In closing a frigate can make those 15 jumps before you even get to your second mid point.

Internet Lawyer Steve and Associates,

Bringing Justice to New Eden, One post at a time...
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#54 - 2012-05-08 23:19:52 UTC
Shian Yang wrote:
I did a quick query against mapSolarSystems using [security] with a distinct count of [solarsystemid]. I have probably done this wrong as this is my first foray into the database, but from what I see it would appear there are:


  • 6000+ NULL security systems
  • ~820 low security systems
  • ~1100 high security systems

Pretty sure you did it wrong, you'll need to cross-reference all those 0.0 systems against the wormhole list to get the actual on-map null-sec system count.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Kriegman
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-05-08 23:22:40 UTC
Wait supercaps cant go through gates? WTF CCP!!! I been sitting in Aeon in EC- on Torrinos gate and mashing the damn jump button thinking its just a tidi bug.
Kieron VonDeux
#56 - 2012-05-08 23:26:02 UTC
There was a thread like this about a year or two ago and it seemed the Devs knew that how fast large organizations can move from one side of the map to the other, power projection, was far too imbalanced, but they didn't seem brave enough to truly fix the problem because it would affect some ot their most loyal customers in a negative way.

You can see that again in this thread. Large organizations won't like it because it reduces the size of their "play area." But I agree that it would probably be best for the health of the game in the long run.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#57 - 2012-05-08 23:31:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Akirei Scytale
Karl Hobb wrote:

Pretty sure you did it wrong, you'll need to cross-reference all those 0.0 systems against the wormhole list to get the actual on-map null-sec system count.


Nullsec is significantly larger than highsec. It also isn't all clustered together, but instead is a giant ring around highsec with many, many chokepoints.


Kieron VonDeux wrote:
There was a thread like this about a year or two ago and it seemed the Devs knew that how fast large organizations can move from one side of the map to the other, power projection, was far too imbalanced, but they didn't seem brave enough to truly fix the problem because it would affect some ot their most loyal customers in a negative way.

You can see that again in this thread. Large organizations won't like it because it reduces the size of their "play area." But I agree that it would probably be best for the health of the game in the long run.


Making it a royal pain in the ass to be able to interact with other players in nullsec is not good for the health of the game.

This is a terrible idea.
Shian Yang
#58 - 2012-05-08 23:40:02 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Pretty sure you did it wrong, you'll need to cross-reference all those 0.0 systems against the wormhole list to get the actual on-map null-sec system count.


Greetings capsuleer Hobb,

Do you know the relevant joins? From what I can see there might be approximately 2600 odd of them, but that would be a naive assumption. Even if it is though, the number of low and null-sec systems outnumber high-sec by a reasonable percentage.

Regards,

Shian Yang
Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#59 - 2012-05-08 23:41:01 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Bootleg Jack wrote:

Agreed the current gate mechanic is a wall that prevents new players from leaving high sec, everyone wants more player to particiapte in PvP/low/null and yet the mechanic is the new participants have to be fodder first like some bizzare hazing ritual.


There are multiple alliances in 0.0 that not only hate new players, but scam them.

FYP

I think all of these issues is the light switch syndrome. Hardly anywhere in between.

Aww, did someone get scammed out of their shiny mining osprey? Who?


Anytime anyone tries to have a grown up discussion about some of the issues behind the low rate of conversion from new player to PvP Pixel Macho Man shows up Lol

I'm an American, English is my second language...
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#60 - 2012-05-08 23:45:04 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:

Pretty sure you did it wrong, you'll need to cross-reference all those 0.0 systems against the wormhole list to get the actual on-map null-sec system count.


Nullsec is significantly larger than highsec. It also isn't all clustered together, but instead is a giant ring around highsec with many, many chokepoints.


Kieron VonDeux wrote:
There was a thread like this about a year or two ago and it seemed the Devs knew that how fast large organizations can move from one side of the map to the other, power projection, was far too imbalanced, but they didn't seem brave enough to truly fix the problem because it would affect some ot their most loyal customers in a negative way.

You can see that again in this thread. Large organizations won't like it because it reduces the size of their "play area." But I agree that it would probably be best for the health of the game in the long run.


Making it a royal pain in the ass to be able to interact with other players in nullsec is not good for the health of the game.

This is a terrible idea.





Lost of NAP out there though. Is that really a lot of interaction? As I recall, this game is much touted as one where people fight each other.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!