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Jump Drives, breaking Eve for years
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Andrey Wartooth
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#221 - 2012-05-10 01:53:49 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
Rhealee wrote:
If were talking speed nerf then by all logic you should nerf the **** out of wh travel too. I mean come on its not fair for a carrier to skip 20 gates, how could it be fair for a freighter to go from highsec to 40 jumps deep into 0.0 in 1 or 2 wh jumps.

I fail to see any logic or any form of proof on how jump drives break the game. Sounds to me like original poster is just pissin and moaning about something trivial. The jump drive mechanism is fine. Fix the gate travel before the jump drives.



Because every single wormhole can take a freighter, you always know exactly where and when the wormhole will open, and exactly where it will take you, and exactly how much of its life-cycle is left.

For ****'s sakes...Roll

Fallacy of false-equivalence is such a perfectly beautiful thing.Ugh


Translation: Nerf teh goonies, but please leave my wormholes alone!
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#222 - 2012-05-10 01:56:52 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
Rhealee wrote:
If were talking speed nerf then by all logic you should nerf the **** out of wh travel too. I mean come on its not fair for a carrier to skip 20 gates, how could it be fair for a freighter to go from highsec to 40 jumps deep into 0.0 in 1 or 2 wh jumps.

I fail to see any logic or any form of proof on how jump drives break the game. Sounds to me like original poster is just pissin and moaning about something trivial. The jump drive mechanism is fine. Fix the gate travel before the jump drives.



Because every single wormhole can take a freighter, you always know exactly where and when the wormhole will open, and exactly where it will take you, and exactly how much of its life-cycle is left.

For ****'s sakes...Roll

Fallacy of false-equivalence is such a perfectly beautiful thing.Ugh

Actually freighters being as massive as they are, how easy is it to fit a freighter through a wormhole, anyway?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#223 - 2012-05-10 02:00:24 UTC
Andrey Wartooth wrote:
Lyrrashae wrote:
Rhealee wrote:
If were talking speed nerf then by all logic you should nerf the **** out of wh travel too. I mean come on its not fair for a carrier to skip 20 gates, how could it be fair for a freighter to go from highsec to 40 jumps deep into 0.0 in 1 or 2 wh jumps.

I fail to see any logic or any form of proof on how jump drives break the game. Sounds to me like original poster is just pissin and moaning about something trivial. The jump drive mechanism is fine. Fix the gate travel before the jump drives.



Because every single wormhole can take a freighter, you always know exactly where and when the wormhole will open, and exactly where it will take you, and exactly how much of its life-cycle is left.

For ****'s sakes...Roll

Fallacy of false-equivalence is such a perfectly beautiful thing.Ugh


Translation: Nerf teh goonies, but please leave my wormholes alone!


Because sov-null and wormholes are no different, either.

Stick to trolling and your junior highschool level chest-beating, goontard, leave discussions of wormholes for the adults.

Ni.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#224 - 2012-05-10 02:53:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyrrashae
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Lyrrashae wrote:
Rhealee wrote:
If were talking speed nerf then by all logic you should nerf the **** out of wh travel too. I mean come on its not fair for a carrier to skip 20 gates, how could it be fair for a freighter to go from highsec to 40 jumps deep into 0.0 in 1 or 2 wh jumps.

I fail to see any logic or any form of proof on how jump drives break the game. Sounds to me like original poster is just pissin and moaning about something trivial. The jump drive mechanism is fine. Fix the gate travel before the jump drives.



Because every single wormhole can take a freighter, you always know exactly where and when the wormhole will open, and exactly where it will take you, and exactly how much of its life-cycle is left.

For ****'s sakes...Roll

Fallacy of false-equivalence is such a perfectly beautiful thing.Ugh

Actually freighters being as massive as they are, how easy is it to fit a freighter through a wormhole, anyway?


Class 1 through 4 won't take one. Nor would most of the class 5s or 6s that the freighter's mass wouldn't account for most of its mass-limit with just one jump, IIRC.

Freighter Masses (Lightest ---> heaviest): Fenrir at 820,000t ----> Charon at 960,000t

So you want 1,000,000t per jump, minimum.

From my quick-and-dirty research-fu, there are only 4 types that will transit a freighter to zerosec (AFAIK exiting from any known- or worm-space system):

C248 (1.8mn t / jump, 2.1475mn t total maximum)
K329 (same)
S199 (1.35mn t / jump, 2.1475mn t total)
V283 (1.00mn t / jump 2.1475mn t total)
Z142 (1.45mn t / jump, 2.1475mn t total)

There aren't that many hi- and losec exit ones that can take 1mn t / single-jump, either, and if you're going through a "wormhole highway" to get between k-space systems, then you'd never know what your next hole can/can't take, again, until you warp on-grid with it, or again, where you'll ultimately end up once you find your k-space exit.

You won't know which type that hole you've probed out is, until you warp onto its grid, and it could just say K162 (generic exit-hole), and then all you'll have to go by is the "Show Info" window telling you in general terms where it goes, what its life-cycle's at, and if its had a significant amount of mass transitted it already.

So, no, wormholes don't need nerfing the way jump-drive force-projection does/the way jump-drive based logistics might, (still not sure where I stand on that, tbqfh) to address the stealth whine a-brewing here--because logistics/travel through them is not easy or quick, nor yet high-volume, and that's not even accounting for the player-generated risks of worm-space.

Oh, have I mentioned you can't light cynos in w-space, and no wormhole will admit/transit a super-capital, let alone a whole blob of them?

Happy probing!

E:

In other words, Rhealee, wormhole-life and travel/logistics using same is not even remotely similar to k-space jump-drive travel/logistics, which is why reasons to nerf the former are not even remotely applicable rationale to nerf the latter. Capisce?

Ni.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#225 - 2012-05-10 03:52:22 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Usually we have scouts out in surrounding systems hunting for targets


I bolded the part that made me lol.

Hunting you say? Calling you out on that one as you are full of ****. More like your scouts are in the surrounding systems spamming the scan button to make sure everyone that jumps into you guys is a ship that poses no threat at all. The very moment anything your scout reports that could possibly damage one of you gate campers, you haul ass off the gate to get safe.

No one is going to buy that hunting bullshit.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#226 - 2012-05-10 04:15:30 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Do you realize you just posted the standard list of platitudes of lowsec carebears? It looks like you just averaged out the wording of a random collection of nullsec lamentations and pasted it in. Are you actually reading the thread?

Can't dismiss my arguments with logic or reasoning? Quick, post a reply that doesn't actually amount to anything!

Cool story bro.



How do I use logic and reasoning on mindless dogma? Might as well try to enlighten a medieval church and get the same results.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#227 - 2012-05-10 04:21:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Andrey Wartooth wrote:
Lyrrashae wrote:
Rhealee wrote:
If were talking speed nerf then by all logic you should nerf the **** out of wh travel too. I mean come on its not fair for a carrier to skip 20 gates, how could it be fair for a freighter to go from highsec to 40 jumps deep into 0.0 in 1 or 2 wh jumps.

I fail to see any logic or any form of proof on how jump drives break the game. Sounds to me like original poster is just pissin and moaning about something trivial. The jump drive mechanism is fine. Fix the gate travel before the jump drives.



Because every single wormhole can take a freighter, you always know exactly where and when the wormhole will open, and exactly where it will take you, and exactly how much of its life-cycle is left.

For ****'s sakes...Roll

Fallacy of false-equivalence is such a perfectly beautiful thing.Ugh


Translation: Nerf teh goonies, but please leave my wormholes alone!



Actually a WH once took my ship 78 jumps from deep null where a lone Russian carrier was ratting to a FW contested lowsec system 2 jumps from high.

But carriers and freighters?

Uh. No.

Battleships with plating have to offline them sometimes to get through and I had a Cyclone with shield extenders get "stuck" once though the second attempt worked for some reason.

To get a freighter to bridge from 0.0 to high sec using WHs you must find that very rare class 5 or 6 system with a WH to high that will allow it. In my travels I have only seen this 3 times. Most of the time a WH system bridging high and 0.0 is a class 2 or 3.


Lyrrashae's research is mostly correct - sometimes a strange or rare WH will pop up, but you can end up waiting weeks for one of those.

(I have).

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#228 - 2012-05-10 04:47:29 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
How do I use logic and reasoning on mindless dogma? Might as well try to enlighten a medieval church and get the same results.

Burned at the stake?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems
#229 - 2012-05-10 12:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Marlona Sky wrote:

What you and a few others are worried about is your power projection being nerfed. You are afraid that in order to find conflict you will need to look more closer to where you live instead of on the other side of the galaxy. You are afraid of effort. You are afraid that "Push button, receive PvP" will go away. You are afraid that you will not be able to blob every threat. You are afraid of actually living in the territory you claim sov in. You are afraid of actually doing things proactively to protect assets in space like POS's and other things. You are afraid of having risk when you carebear.

You are scared of the unknown.


You understand only the half of it and that not fully too.

Unknown?
I was in 0.0 back in the day when jump bridges had barely been introduced and POS ping-pong was the way to conquer a system.

Power projection as you claim it, is the reason that 0.0 sov now changes a lot faster than before. Back in the day once an alliance built the initial infrastructure all they had to do was gatecamping at the choke points to make their turf completely safe.

Now this is no longer true. And that happened with the cynos.

You also disregard the fact that the mindless notion of yours "push buttan. receive pvp" requires a considerable logistical effort that makes that final move possible.

But the real cause you are whining about jump drives and jump bridges has to do with the fact that you now have to put a lot more effort to find a target, other than just sitting idle at a gate waiting for the prey to fall on your hands.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#230 - 2012-05-10 13:00:36 UTC
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:

What you and a few others are worried about is your power projection being nerfed. You are afraid that in order to find conflict you will need to look more closer to where you live instead of on the other side of the galaxy. You are afraid of effort. You are afraid that "Push button, receive PvP" will go away. You are afraid that you will not be able to blob every threat. You are afraid of actually living in the territory you claim sov in. You are afraid of actually doing things proactively to protect assets in space like POS's and other things. You are afraid of having risk when you carebear.

You are scared of the unknown.


You understand only the half of it and that not fully too.

Unknown?
I was in 0.0 back in the day when jump bridges had barely been introduced and POS ping-pong was the way to conquer a system.

Power projection as you claim it, is the reason that 0.0 sov now changes a lot faster than before. Back in the day once an alliance built the initial infrastructure all they had to do was gatecamping at the choke points to make their turf completely safe.

Now this is no longer true. And that happened with the cynos.

You also disregard the fact that the mindless notion of yours "push buttan. receive pvp" requires a considerable logistical effort that makes that final move possible.

But the real cause you are whining about jump drives and jump bridges has to do with the fact that you now have to put a lot more effort to find a target, other than just sitting idle at a gate waiting for the prey to fall on your hands.

I'm actually wondering if maybe his little roam got hotdropped by PL or something.

They have it all worked out to an art. Amazing what they can do with a supercapital fleet and some cyno alts.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
MortisLegati
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#231 - 2012-05-10 22:49:50 UTC
Andski wrote:
Jump drives are not a problem. The fact that any ship can light a cyno is.


One small little glimmer of light in a 12-page thread of rage and crying.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#232 - 2012-05-11 18:53:51 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Hey, now it's your corp turn to be schooled about "you can't have pie and eat it".
Is it tedious? Sure, in the same manner it's awful to fit a massive tank on an Hulk. Yet miners are schooled about go that way or the highway, right?


it'd be our turn to be "schooled" if they were actually changing jump drives, which ain't happening

now, if they were nerfing jump drives - which they are not - we'd adapt and do lame freighter convoys, but if you think that'd create ~fights~ you're out of your mind

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#233 - 2012-05-14 02:51:26 UTC
Shian Yang wrote:
Do you know the relevant joins? From what I can see there might be approximately 2600 odd of them, but that would be a naive assumption. Even if it is though, the number of low and null-sec systems outnumber high-sec by a reasonable percentage.

Sorry, forgot I posted in this thread. No, unfortunately, I don't know the relevant JOINs. I used to have the db dump on my laptop but I removed it because work **** was taking up too much space.

What will probably work is doing a JOIN on the constellation table and excluding any 0.0 systems that are in "unknown" constellations. Someone else might have a better way, but I'm positive that will produce the desired result.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Fatbear
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#234 - 2012-05-14 11:37:43 UTC
MortisLegati wrote:
Andski wrote:
Jump drives are not a problem. The fact that any ship can light a cyno is.


One small little glimmer of light in a 12-page thread of rage and crying.


Was just thinking exactly the same thing. Too easy to argue over sense though.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#235 - 2012-05-15 06:46:59 UTC
Fatbear wrote:
MortisLegati wrote:
Andski wrote:
Jump drives are not a problem. The fact that any ship can light a cyno is.


One small little glimmer of light in a 12-page thread of rage and crying.


Was just thinking exactly the same thing. Too easy to argue over sense though.


I talked about this at least over a year ago. Any idea presented by me or anyone else was meet with tears about MY PRECIOUS SANDBOX!

Even a sandbox has walls and the ones for this sandbox need some work.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#236 - 2012-05-15 06:47:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:
You understand only the half of it and that not fully too.


Oh really?

Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:
Unknown?
I was in 0.0 back in the day when jump bridges had barely been introduced and POS ping-pong was the way to conquer a system.


Yes I fully remember those days as well. I was in 0.0 before jump bridges were even an idea in someone's head from CCP. That system (the ping pong) was terrible.

Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:
Power projection as you claim it, is the reason that 0.0 sov now changes a lot faster than before. Back in the day once an alliance built the initial infrastructure all they had to do was gatecamping at the choke points to make their turf completely safe.


There is many issues with power projection and claiming territory. Usually once a defender starts to lose a few systems, especially a couple key systems that they occupy, they almost never recover. A cascade if you will.

Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:
Now this is no longer true. And that happened with the cynos.

You also disregard the fact that the mindless notion of yours "push buttan. receive pvp" requires a considerable logistical effort that makes that final move possible.


The notion, if you will, is that there is many points of view on what is considered effort, victory, pvp, etc. Some view effort as a pain in the ass and want nothing to do with it. What one persons garbage is another treasure. So while one guy says that having to do 'something' to create a situation for pvp, another will say that they do not play a game for it to become like a job for them. So having to perform the same task is too much for them and they want it change/removed/made super easy.

Logistics in its current form is a flat out joke. It is. No way can you try and pretty it up like it takes all kinds of work, because it simply does not. Now a large entity can overload a very small handful of people with all the logistics and for those few unlucky bastards, it is a major pain in the ass and a **** ton of work.

There is two issues there. Making a few do something that is not fun for an entity of (insert massive number here). So you take something terrible and amplify it. So yeah, if you do it that way, it sucks. You will never find any post of mine that says logistics should not be fun. Yes CCP should have a look at why no one likes to do freighter runs. Why with just a couple of scouts they can easily avoid conflict. With that in mind it becomes a simple choir. A task that will not net action because those moving the goods simply do not want action. They just want to get their **** to where they live and that is that. Why? Because if they get jumped, that freighter will most likely die every time. It will be blobbed to hell and back. Again, a lot of different things that involve logistics ranging from turning it into something people will not cringe when they have to do it, to the escort actually have a chance of fighting off the raiders and getting the goods delivered.

Please keep in mind I am not wanting people to be forced to do something terrible. People pay money to enjoy a game and enjoy it they should.

Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:
But the real cause you are whining about jump drives and jump bridges has to do with the fact that you now have to put a lot more effort to find a target, other than just sitting idle at a gate waiting for the prey to fall on your hands.


I really don't think you have any idea why I have beef with jump drives and jump bridges. Before the jump bridge nerf, yeah, those were out of control. When an entire super block NAP train coalition can move entire armadas of fleets five regions away in ten minutes without every having to take a gate; things are ****** up.

Finally, I ******* hate gate camps. Specifically camps that are in no way there to protect any assets or anything like that. Even more specifically, a vast majority of gate campers are extreme pussies. They will have a scout in each direction and if anything shows up on scan/jumps in local with scout that might present a hint of a threat; those ~elite~ pvpers will be off the camped gate faster than a fat kid sprinting away from a salad. They are pussies. Sure some of you will say, "No. That is just them running a proper gate camp." I don't care. Those kinds of gate camps are run by cowards.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#237 - 2012-05-15 07:00:24 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Finally, I ******* hate gate camps. Specifically camps that are in no way there to protect any assets or anything like that. Even more specifically, a vast majority of gate campers are extreme pussies. They will have a scout in each direction and if anything shows up on scan/jumps in local with scout that might present a hint of a threat; those ~elite~ pvpers will be off the camped gate faster than a fat kid sprinting away from a salad. They are pussies. Sure some of you will say, "No. That is just them running a proper gate camp." I don't care. Those kinds of gate camps are run by cowards.

I think gate camps are supposed to be like ganking ~~

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#238 - 2012-05-15 07:53:18 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:


Finally, I ******* hate gate camps. Specifically camps that are in no way there to protect any assets or anything like that. Even more specifically, a vast majority of gate campers are extreme pussies. They will have a scout in each direction and if anything shows up on scan/jumps in local with scout that might present a hint of a threat; those ~elite~ pvpers will be off the camped gate faster than a fat kid sprinting away from a salad. They are pussies. Sure some of you will say, "No. That is just them running a proper gate camp." I don't care. Those kinds of gate camps are run by cowards.



The pussyness is highlighted in the fact that in several incidents I should have been PWNED horribly but the 5-6 outnumbering me broke off. Why? Because they could not be sure I wouldn't take at least one of them out in the process. And so, each one of them fearful of their stats, could not hold their team together and most of them ran off to get a bigger ship, thinking the others would do the tackle, but having the same fear, took a little longer before running off.

So they ran off in fear for their stats of their almighty killboard, when they could have taken my ship out in less than 20 seconds.

Their cowardly mindset however did spare my ship and the cargo hold full of 0.0 exploration goodies and sleeper loot.


So yeah, gate campers are the biggest pussies. Even suicide gankers have more cajone-factor.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#239 - 2012-06-07 19:51:06 UTC
Quote:
Eve is approximately 100 light years across total.


Taking into account stellar density (the average number of stars per x number of lightyears in any given area of space), New Eden is anywhere from 200 - 500 lightyears accross.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Rikanin
Mining Reloaded
#240 - 2012-06-07 19:54:21 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
"Let's make going anywhere in 0.0 a royal pain in the ass that involves hundreds of gates or dozens and dozens of short jumps, consuming fuel and time!"

Making a game more tedious makes it less fun. People log in to shoot each other or do whatever it is they enjoy, not spend multiple days moving assets for one day's worth of fun.

Remember, this is a game, not a job.


God help me I agree with a goon pet