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[Proposal] New form of Delayed Local for Known Space.

Author
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#1 - 2012-05-06 01:39:57 UTC
Local Chat's current Intel function diminishes strategic gameplay, stealth, and scouting. This proposal aims to fix that while still giving tools to Sov. Holders (and those in NPC Null who make the effort to align with NPCs). It also encourages the use of smaller ship classes bellow that of BCs for use as raiders and scouts by giving them a greater potential to move about unnoticed.


Local Chat Intel Changes:

New Delayed mode:
- Automatically applies to High and Low Sec

Players will now appear in Local after a set time of entering the system based on ship class:

Frigates, Shuttles, Pods: 5 minutes delay
Destroyers: 3 minutes delay
Cruisers, Transports, Mining Barges: 1 minute 30 seconds
Battlecruisers, Industrials, Exhumers: 30 seconds
Battleships: 15 seconds
Capital Ships or Player Docked in a Station: Instant

* Cloaks will end the timer and cannot be picked up by Local Intel if not already registered or unless the player broadcasts in the Chat.
* Once registered on a systems Local Intel only logging out or leaving the system will remove you. Cloaking after this time will not remove you from Local.

Note: None of this applies to Wormwhole space which remains the same.


- Null Sec:

Local Chat Intel is no longer automatically part of Null Sec, the default state being the same as Wormhole space.

Outposts in Sov Null provide the new Delayed Mode Local Intel in the system they occupy. Much like docking rights, who has access to this Intel in controlled by those that own the Outpost.

Stations in NPC Null will provide the new Delayed Mode Local Intel in the System they occupy to those Players or Corps that have 8.0 or higher standing to the NPC Corp holding the station.

A new mod for Titans and perhaps other Cap Ships that will allow them to provide the new Delayed Mode Local Intel for the System they are in for all Corp and Alliance members. Active mod that will not work in POS shields or while the ship is cloaked. Also will not function in WH Space.

A new deployable The Scanner Array: When deployed will provide the new delayed Local Intel in the system in which it is deployed to the Corp and alliance that owns it. Cannot be deployed in or near a POS. Will not function in WH space. Has a large volume that no subcap combat ship can carry one. Is relatively expensive to produce and relatively easy to destroy. Also shows up on Overview.


Note: This Proposal is the Local Chat portion of a larger proposal in Features and Ideas on Improving Intel in EVE which includes additional ideas including cloaking improvements and means to detect cloaked ships which can be found here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=94963&find=unread
Arduemont
The State of War.
#2 - 2012-05-06 09:24:56 UTC
First, I would like to say I dont support this. I've lived everywhere except WH in my times and local works just fine. Attacking people in their own space is easy enough as it is (and this isn't coming from the person being attacked by the way).

Secondly, this has been proposed a million and seven times. If you want to bring it up again search for it and post your support in that thread instead of posting another one. (Also, by the way, the fact its been braught up so often and shot down so often says something about how little support it gets each time.)

My 2 cents... Or pence, rather.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf

Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#3 - 2012-05-06 23:22:38 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
First, I would like to say I dont support this. I've lived everywhere except WH in my times and local works just fine. Attacking people in their own space is easy enough as it is (and this isn't coming from the person being attacked by the way).

Secondly, this has been proposed a million and seven times. If you want to bring it up again search for it and post your support in that thread instead of posting another one. (Also, by the way, the fact its been braught up so often and shot down so often says something about how little support it gets each time.)

My 2 cents... Or pence, rather.


I too have lived in Null, and know that because of Local it's near effortless to avoid being attacked when you're not traveling via gates...and for those who are part of large alliances even the gates aren't that dangerous as others will generally warn in intel channels if they see anyone on Local in their system, so you know a hostile is nearby long before they even reach the same system as you.

As to the game breaking nature of Local Chat being being brought up many times before, this is true, but I never saw you saying the same in the gazzilion AFK cloak whine threads that pollute these forums, why is that? Besides my particular solution in this proposal is new.
El Geo
Warcrows
Shattered Foundations
#4 - 2012-05-07 10:25:17 UTC
i like this idea, maybe i'd tweak it abit personally but still

+1
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#5 - 2012-05-07 18:38:26 UTC
El Geo wrote:
i like this idea, maybe i'd tweak it abit personally but still

+1


What would you tweak and why El Geo?
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-05-07 19:07:33 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
First, I would like to say I dont support this. I've lived everywhere except WH in my times and local works just fine. Attacking people in their own space is easy enough as it is (and this isn't coming from the person being attacked by the way).

Secondly, this has been proposed a million and seven times. If you want to bring it up again search for it and post your support in that thread instead of posting another one. (Also, by the way, the fact its been braught up so often and shot down so often says something about how little support it gets each time.)

My 2 cents... Or pence, rather.



Then your opinion/argument is heavily biased....you have no right to make a judgement call on such a thing....aside from your dislike of the idea.


You should spend a little time in WHS before you make your final opinion on that matter.

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Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-05-07 19:08:38 UTC
Xorv wrote:
Local Chat's current Intel function diminishes strategic gameplay, stealth, and scouting. This proposal aims to fix that while still giving tools to Sov. Holders (and those in NPC Null who make the effort to align with NPCs). It also encourages the use of smaller ship classes bellow that of BCs for use as raiders and scouts by giving them a greater potential to move about unnoticed.


Local Chat Intel Changes:

New Delayed mode:
- Automatically applies to High and Low Sec

Players will now appear in Local after a set time of entering the system based on ship class:

Frigates, Shuttles, Pods: 5 minutes delay
Destroyers: 3 minutes delay
Cruisers, Transports, Mining Barges: 1 minute 30 seconds
Battlecruisers, Industrials, Exhumers: 30 seconds
Battleships: 15 seconds
Capital Ships or Player Docked in a Station: Instant

* Cloaks will end the timer and cannot be picked up by Local Intel if not already registered or unless the player broadcasts in the Chat.
* Once registered on a systems Local Intel only logging out or leaving the system will remove you. Cloaking after this time will not remove you from Local.

Note: None of this applies to Wormwhole space which remains the same.


- Null Sec:

Local Chat Intel is no longer automatically part of Null Sec, the default state being the same as Wormhole space.

Outposts in Sov Null provide the new Delayed Mode Local Intel in the system they occupy. Much like docking rights, who has access to this Intel in controlled by those that own the Outpost.

Stations in NPC Null will provide the new Delayed Mode Local Intel in the System they occupy to those Players or Corps that have 8.0 or higher standing to the NPC Corp holding the station.

A new mod for Titans and perhaps other Cap Ships that will allow them to provide the new Delayed Mode Local Intel for the System they are in for all Corp and Alliance members. Active mod that will not work in POS shields or while the ship is cloaked. Also will not function in WH Space.

A new deployable The Scanner Array: When deployed will provide the new delayed Local Intel in the system in which it is deployed to the Corp and alliance that owns it. Cannot be deployed in or near a POS. Will not function in WH space. Has a large volume that no subcap combat ship can carry one. Is relatively expensive to produce and relatively easy to destroy. Also shows up on Overview.


Note: This Proposal is the Local Chat portion of a larger proposal in Features and Ideas on Improving Intel in EVE which includes additional ideas including cloaking improvements and means to detect cloaked ships which can be found here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=94963&find=unread




Intruiging twist Xorv...not sure if it would fly well in High Sec (15min delay on pods) as it could hurt war decs in high sec for hunting targets but then again....why not just make it delayed local all together? (I'm not REALLY asking that..but I'm asking for more background on your line of thinking)

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El Geo
Warcrows
Shattered Foundations
#8 - 2012-05-07 19:10:27 UTC  |  Edited by: El Geo
Tweak with sliding scales depending on sec status (of the system) and standings (player/corp/alliance/militia/faction) aswell as ship mass, to make it more dynamic. (a word which i'd like to see applied to many things in eve Big smile)

and yeah maybe lower the times in highsec so its a bit quicker, ofc i expect it would all add to server load...
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#9 - 2012-05-07 20:44:58 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:

Intruiging twist Xorv...not sure if it would fly well in High Sec (15min delay on pods) as it could hurt war decs in high sec for hunting targets but then again....why not just make it delayed local all together? (I'm not REALLY asking that..but I'm asking for more background on your line of thinking)


The goal is to make active Intel gathering more important, I don't think it would negatively impact Wardecs in Empire, either side in a wardec could benefit from this change either in pursuit or evasion, but both would now require player effort. Why not no Local Intel altogether? It's partly a bit of compromise, but it also falls into the secondary objective I had with this particular proposal which was to give a strategic advantage in using smaller classes of ships. CCP has already began looking into this with finding roles for Frigates, but I think they're missing the mark just be playing with fitting stats. This proposal gives a real strategic reason to use a gang of all Frigs and Destroyers, or a gang of Cruisers; these ships become the skirmishers, raiders, and scouts they should be, while BCs and up remain the ships with the real firepower and capacity to stay in a slugging match.

Just a few clarifications: It's 5 minutes, not 15 minutes delay for pods in the proposal. Also the default state for Nullsec is the same for WH space, except there's multiple means of creating the new Delayed Local in Null systems whereas there isn't for WH space.



El Geo wrote:
Tweak with sliding scales depending on sec status (of the system) and standings (player/corp/alliance/militia/faction) aswell as ship mass, to make it more dynamic. (a word which i'd like to see applied to many things in eve Big smile)

and yeah maybe lower the times in highsec so its a bit quicker, ofc i expect it would all add to server load...


The times are just rough numbers, they could change. However, the goal is to make it so Frigates and Destroyers are able to enter a system have a fight in that system and leave without ever showing up on Local, and for Cruisers to be able to pass through systems without showing up on Local if they don't linger. ..and ofc for BCs and up not to have this advantage.

As to making based on ship mass as you suggested, or ship signature (which I thought about) I rejected because Signature would hurt passive shield tanks and be overly favorable to T3s with certain set ups, and mass would hurt Armor Tanks. In any respect neither mass or signature give the clear results I wanted to see, the way ship class does.

I would not be against making standings to NPCs effect HS, LS, and NPC Null more than my proposal suggested, but it would make the proposal a lot more complicated than it already is and I don't think it's the most critical element, so it's left out.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2012-05-07 21:18:51 UTC
why not...it will shut up the AFK c loakers whiners and make them bleed (not cry) for local to come back. Twisted


+1

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Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#11 - 2012-05-08 00:10:59 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
why not...it will shut up the AFK c loakers whiners and make them bleed (not cry) for local to come back. Twisted


+1


Actually if you carefully read the details this proposal it doesn't remove AFK cloaking as an option, although I doubt many would bother as there simply is no need to do it the first place.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-05-08 00:39:11 UTC
Xorv wrote:
Drake Draconis wrote:
why not...it will shut up the AFK c loakers whiners and make them bleed (not cry) for local to come back. Twisted


+1


Actually if you carefully read the details this proposal it doesn't remove AFK cloaking as an option, although I doubt many would bother as there simply is no need to do it the first place.



Oh there is.....you won't show up on DS if your cloaked.

But thats a minor detail in the grand scehme of things.

Even if you don't know I'm there...I'm still going to cloak up.

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El Geo
Warcrows
Shattered Foundations
#13 - 2012-05-08 01:39:49 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
why not...it will shut up the AFK c loakers whiners and make them bleed (not cry) for local to come back. Twisted


+1


the only real afk cloakers are the ratters who dont want to be found
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#14 - 2012-05-09 05:50:15 UTC
I still think the inherent issue is with cynos, I mean picture this situation:

I sneak into a highly populated, fully upgraded ratting system just after DT in a falcon with a cyno fitted. I log my character off in a deep safe for a few days, just in case anyone noticed me getting in there or is suspicious when they log in and system is loaded but empty.

A few days later I log on, cloak up, quickly warp about and titan bridge the first person I see. Once we've ganked a ratter I warp off to deep safe and log off once my aggression is clear. Then I do the same thing again the next time I'm bored. The only defence would be a 24 hour guard that can react to any attack of unknown size and composition within a minute or two.

Whilst I do hate the current state of AFK cloaking and local intel, I don't think the solution is going to be simple. And I think it is intertwined with a much needed look at cyno mechanics.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#15 - 2012-05-09 06:19:54 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:

Whilst I do hate the current state of AFK cloaking and local intel, I don't think the solution is going to be simple. And I think it is intertwined with a much needed look at cyno mechanics.


I actually agree about the Cynos, I've suggested elsewhere that Warp Scrams and Distributors have the added effect of blocking a ships ability to light a Cyno Beacon.

I also agree there are a lot of interconnected issues, I linked in the OP a Thread in Features and Ideas that addressed more of these connected issues. However, the truth is the more complex a proposal the less attention it will get. So, it comes down to breaking them up into their respective parts, and the first step in my view is dealing with Local Chat's very negative impact on gameplay.


Arduemont
The State of War.
#16 - 2012-05-09 11:02:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
I keep reading this over, thinking that maybe im missing something.

But I still dont like it.

Quote:
Then your opinion/argument is heavily biased....you have no right to make a judgement call on such a thing....aside from your dislike of the idea.


You should spend a little time in WHS before you make your final opinion on that matter.


I said I'd never "lived" in WH space. I faught there fairly often. Besides, thinking my view doesn't really count in some way because I live out of the space your proposing to change is a bit daft. Its like telling someone your going to change their hospital to work the way it does in Zimbabwe and then telling them their objections are moot because they never worked in Zimbabwe...

Also, my concerns in my original post were never really accounted for. It is still already too easy to get people in their own space, this is just going to make it easier. I dont really understand why this has been proposed. Sure, its a nifty idea and would be fun for a while, but it doesn't really fix any problems. It just creates new ones.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf

Kitt JT
True North.
#17 - 2012-05-09 11:11:35 UTC
any change to local needs to be coupled with power projection changes (read: cynos), and cloaking changes

currently one of the reasons cloaking isn't completely unbalanced is because you still know SOMEONE is there.
Davon Mandra'thin
Consultech Intermediary Services
#18 - 2012-05-09 11:21:29 UTC
I've avoided suicide gank in highsec a few times with local info. Its already difficult enough to avoid suicide ganking, I would rather it didn't get more difficult.

So no.
El Geo
Warcrows
Shattered Foundations
#19 - 2012-05-09 12:20:08 UTC
Davon Mandra'thin wrote:
I've avoided suicide gank in highsec a few times with local info. Its already difficult enough to avoid suicide ganking, I would rather it didn't get more difficult.

So no.


lol, you cant avoid a suicide gank by looking at local
Davon Mandra'thin
Consultech Intermediary Services
#20 - 2012-05-09 12:23:07 UTC
El Geo wrote:
Davon Mandra'thin wrote:
I've avoided suicide gank in highsec a few times with local info. Its already difficult enough to avoid suicide ganking, I would rather it didn't get more difficult.

So no.


lol, you cant avoid a suicide gank by looking at local


Yea, you can. And I have. Twice.
An insurgance of "I shouldn't be in highsec" reds is kind of a give away if your paying attention. Especially if a frig flew into you belt and cloaked up near you shortly before.
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