These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Market Discussions

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Major scam
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#121 - 2012-05-08 21:48:00 UTC
The Cake wrote:
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
The Cake wrote:
I do think the margin trading skill needs to be changed. In my opinion escrow should work as follows

If you place a BO for 100m and 25m goes into escrow then when 25 million is sold to that order, 6.25M comes from escrow and the other 19.75M from your wallet.

Eg.
escrow/order
25/100
19.75/75
13.5/50
6.5/25


I do not think people should be allowed to deplete their escrow. I was somewhat surprised after I read the skill description that it did not work like this.


I'm not sure how this speaks to the Margin Trading scam, though, since it's a matter of the money being present in the wallet at first, but removed after the buy order is put up, so that not enough cash exists in the wallet to cover the order. When the order is filled, it fails, not because the escrow was deplenished, but because the wallet was purposely left without enough covering cash. Unless you believe that people should have to keep enough cash in their wallets to cover these orders (in which case Margin Trading becomes utterly pointless), your plan isn't really going to stop this particular sort of scam.


The link posted earlier in the thread showed how you reverse the trick against the margin scammer in some cases.


In order for the margin trading scam to work a player must mark the item up substantially. So what that thread said to do is instead of selling to the buy order at full price, you sell at say 23% of the price. If the margin trader has not depleted their escrow the sale will go through and they may lose a very great amount of money.

Essentially making this change will reduce the profits to at max 300% (4x price) with a risk of breaking even. If somebody were to mark up a good 1000% under this system then they would run the risk that somebody would sell them the good at 230% of its value causing them to lose a lot of money on the scam.

It will not stop the scam but it will force the scammer to accept a bit of risk. I do not intend to remove scammers from the game, but they should be forced to take risks like everybody else.


And we should impose this just to stop a very, very, very marginal number of players who do this sort of scam?
Orion Wyvernbane
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2012-05-08 21:50:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Orion Wyvernbane
Mila Chancel wrote:
PS: the 23% thing, as already mentioned, only works if they have not put up a minimum volume....in which case, they do not even know how it works.


Scammer's buy order: I want 10 joysticks for 100k isk each (total 1M isk, with ~230k isk in escrow). Minimum 10 joysticks.

Right click the sell order: I will sell you 10 joysticks for the amazing price of 23k isk each!

Scammer's buy order: that's such a great deal! Here's the money!
The Cake
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#123 - 2012-05-09 00:00:14 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
The Cake wrote:
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
The Cake wrote:
I do think the margin trading skill needs to be changed. In my opinion escrow should work as follows

If you place a BO for 100m and 25m goes into escrow then when 25 million is sold to that order, 6.25M comes from escrow and the other 19.75M from your wallet.

Eg.
escrow/order
25/100
19.75/75
13.5/50
6.5/25


I do not think people should be allowed to deplete their escrow. I was somewhat surprised after I read the skill description that it did not work like this.


I'm not sure how this speaks to the Margin Trading scam, though, since it's a matter of the money being present in the wallet at first, but removed after the buy order is put up, so that not enough cash exists in the wallet to cover the order. When the order is filled, it fails, not because the escrow was deplenished, but because the wallet was purposely left without enough covering cash. Unless you believe that people should have to keep enough cash in their wallets to cover these orders (in which case Margin Trading becomes utterly pointless), your plan isn't really going to stop this particular sort of scam.


The link posted earlier in the thread showed how you reverse the trick against the margin scammer in some cases.


In order for the margin trading scam to work a player must mark the item up substantially. So what that thread said to do is instead of selling to the buy order at full price, you sell at say 23% of the price. If the margin trader has not depleted their escrow the sale will go through and they may lose a very great amount of money.

Essentially making this change will reduce the profits to at max 300% (4x price) with a risk of breaking even. If somebody were to mark up a good 1000% under this system then they would run the risk that somebody would sell them the good at 230% of its value causing them to lose a lot of money on the scam.

It will not stop the scam but it will force the scammer to accept a bit of risk. I do not intend to remove scammers from the game, but they should be forced to take risks like everybody else.


And we should impose this just to stop a very, very, very marginal number of players who do this sort of scam?


A couple lines at most of code? Certainly. Also please do not misattribute the notion of stopping the scam to me, this does not stop the scam, it just imposes more rISK :)

Even absent of this scam I think the change should be made. Essentially for an extra 0.2%-0.5% tax and a couple extra clicks, a player can place a buy order with zero in escrow.



Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#124 - 2012-05-09 01:30:51 UTC
The Cake wrote:
A couple lines at most of code? Certainly. Also please do not misattribute the notion of stopping the scam to me, this does not stop the scam, it just imposes more rISK :)

Even absent of this scam I think the change should be made. Essentially for an extra 0.2%-0.5% tax and a couple extra clicks, a player can place a buy order with zero in escrow.


What's the added risk? That somebody is going to waste a crapload of money just to mess up your Margin Trading scam? Yeah, that sounds like a huge risk.
The Cake
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#125 - 2012-05-09 04:40:31 UTC  |  Edited by: The Cake
Akita T wrote:

"HOWTO: Screw a Margin Trade Scammer"

Enjoy.


Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
The Cake wrote:
A couple lines at most of code? Certainly. Also please do not misattribute the notion of stopping the scam to me, this does not stop the scam, it just imposes more rISK :)

Even absent of this scam I think the change should be made. Essentially for an extra 0.2%-0.5% tax and a couple extra clicks, a player can place a buy order with zero in escrow.


What's the added risk? That somebody is going to waste a crapload of money just to mess up your Margin Trading scam? Yeah, that sounds like a huge risk.



I'm guessing you didn't read her link if you don't know where the risk is coming from or how it's being avoided currently.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#126 - 2012-05-09 05:37:04 UTC
The Cake wrote:
I'm guessing you didn't read her link if you don't know where the risk is coming from or how it's being avoided currently.


The whole thing is predicated on "if they didn't clear the escrow." The Margin Trading scam, of course, rests entirely on clearing the escrow. That's what they do. Unless they're stupid. So basically what you're saying is that we should change game mechanics just so a tiny percentage of people who notice Margin Trading scams, which are themselves a very marginal event in the game, can more easily screw with them. Sounds like a winner to me. I'm sure CCP will be putting this right near the top of their update schedule.
The Cake
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#127 - 2012-05-09 07:11:23 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
The Cake wrote:
I'm guessing you didn't read her link if you don't know where the risk is coming from or how it's being avoided currently.


The whole thing is predicated on "if they didn't clear the escrow." The Margin Trading scam, of course, rests entirely on clearing the escrow. That's what they do. Unless they're stupid. So basically what you're saying is that we should change game mechanics just so a tiny percentage of people who notice Margin Trading scams, which are themselves a very marginal event in the game, can more easily screw with them. Sounds like a winner to me. I'm sure CCP will be putting this right near the top of their update schedule.




You sarcastically ask how the idea introduces risk, then a post or two later you imply that a person would be stupid to accept such a risk. Yet you were apparently ignorant of said risk a few posts ago; ergo this says something of your discourse. Any more brilliant insights or sarcasm you'd like to share?

It'd be so horrifically hard to change perhaps one to three lines of code. Although an individual such as yourself might take several months to design, write and debug such a large project I'm sure CCP could do it with slightly less effort*.




*I would anticipate it would take them longer to identify the correct object/function to alter than to actually write the code.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#128 - 2012-05-09 07:21:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai
The Cake wrote:
...then a post or two later you imply that a person would be stupid to accept such a risk. Yet you were apparently ignorant of said risk a few posts ago; ergo this says something of your discourse. Any more brilliant insights or sarcasm you'd like to share?


Care to show me how that works again? I said that a Margin Trading scammer would be stupid to not already have taken the precaution of clearing their escrow and emptying their wallet, since that's precisely what the scam depends on in order to work. All that thread basically said was, "If a person is really dumb, here's some stuff you can do to them." The entire point is that none of what was put forth in that other thread constitutes a real risk to somebody who's doing the Margin Trading scam "right." It does, of course, constitute a real risk to a dumb idiot trying to run that scam. Apparently you believe that what the devs decide to update in the game should be determined by how it allows us to mess with a tiny subsection of people who run the Margin Trading scam (who are themselves a tiny subsection of the overall EVE population).
Ben Bernank
The Goldman Sachs
#129 - 2012-05-10 03:35:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Ben Bernank
I've scammed my fair share of greedy fools with the margin trick, and at least in my experience more old players fall for it than new players.

Why CCP won't do anything about it:

-They already have your money. If you're a noob who bought plex to provide some liquidity, it makes no difference to CCP who keeps the isk after the plex is bought. Besides, if you didn't lose it in a margin scam, it's very likely you'll do something else stupid like fall for a contract scam or get ganked carrying your shiny plex. After that, you're just as likely to rage quit.

-Margin trading allows for trading to exist as a profession. My trading aside from the scams would starve without the skill.

-Negative balances = going full tard. There's a mechanism that's ripe for spacemoney printing exploitation.

-A skull & crossbones to ID uncovered positions would be meaningless, as others have said. You'll find most traders don't have enough isk to cover everything, so most market screens will be filled with skull icons. If everything blinks, why bother.

If the victim mails me after realizing what happened in a not belligerent way, I'm more than happy to buy back the widget for a reasonable amount. The folks like the OP though.... I advise them to find a more controlled game like WoW.
cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#130 - 2012-05-10 07:58:20 UTC
I'm just so disappointed with TQ lately , not just because of the scamming going on but the inflation on top of everything else.

Singularity IMHO is a much more enjoyable experience for a casual gamer. I don't have to CONSTANTLY manage ISK, and grind the same missions over and over just so I can buy a SINGLE mod to try out in PVP. I can't imagine anyone really enjoys mission grinding as a way to make ISK.

I'm not even interested in ISK I just want to fly ships and PVP, without having to worry about ISK ISK ISK, it gets so tiring and I want to play a game where money is not a limiting factor like RL, maybe I am just not interested in all the market stuff.

I have had more fights on singularity then TQ simply because people are more likely to engage in a fight when ISK is not a factor. For a casual gamer like me, singularity is a much better experience overall. I get to try different ships multiple fits AND not have to waste time doing something I care nothing about like trading or missions.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.
Packtu'sa
Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
Nabaal Syndicate
#131 - 2012-05-10 20:27:48 UTC
cyndrogen wrote:
I'm just so disappointed with TQ lately , not just because of the scamming going on but the inflation on top of everything else.

Singularity IMHO is a much more enjoyable experience for a casual gamer. I don't have to CONSTANTLY manage ISK, and grind the same missions over and over just so I can buy a SINGLE mod to try out in PVP. I can't imagine anyone really enjoys mission grinding as a way to make ISK.

I'm not even interested in ISK I just want to fly ships and PVP, without having to worry about ISK ISK ISK, it gets so tiring and I want to play a game where money is not a limiting factor like RL, maybe I am just not interested in all the market stuff.

I have had more fights on singularity then TQ simply because people are more likely to engage in a fight when ISK is not a factor. For a casual gamer like me, singularity is a much better experience overall. I get to try different ships multiple fits AND not have to waste time doing something I care nothing about like trading or missions.


Internet spaceships are serious business. EVE has real risk and thus real reward. If you don't want that as a casual gamer, fine.
Tradelita
Ducats in Buckets
#132 - 2012-05-10 20:36:30 UTC
cyndrogen wrote:
I'm just so disappointed with TQ lately , not just because of the scamming going on but the inflation on top of everything else.

Singularity IMHO is a much more enjoyable experience for a casual gamer. I don't have to CONSTANTLY manage ISK, and grind the same missions over and over just so I can buy a SINGLE mod to try out in PVP. I can't imagine anyone really enjoys mission grinding as a way to make ISK.

I'm not even interested in ISK I just want to fly ships and PVP, without having to worry about ISK ISK ISK, it gets so tiring and I want to play a game where money is not a limiting factor like RL, maybe I am just not interested in all the market stuff.

I have had more fights on singularity then TQ simply because people are more likely to engage in a fight when ISK is not a factor. For a casual gamer like me, singularity is a much better experience overall. I get to try different ships multiple fits AND not have to waste time doing something I care nothing about like trading or missions.


So play on SiSi then.

Or purchase PLEX.

Or discover one of the many ways to earn ISK with little active effort. You can't seriously be proposing that EVE would be better without risk, that's simply ludicrous.
cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#133 - 2012-05-10 21:21:57 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Eshtir
Tradelita wrote:
cyndrogen wrote:
I'm just so disappointed with TQ lately , not just because of the scamming going on but the inflation on top of everything else.

Singularity IMHO is a much more enjoyable experience for a casual gamer. I don't have to CONSTANTLY manage ISK, and grind the same missions over and over just so I can buy a SINGLE mod to try out in PVP. I can't imagine anyone really enjoys mission grinding as a way to make ISK.

I'm not even interested in ISK I just want to fly ships and PVP, without having to worry about ISK ISK ISK, it gets so tiring and I want to play a game where money is not a limiting factor like RL, maybe I am just not interested in all the market stuff.

I have had more fights on singularity then TQ simply because people are more likely to engage in a fight when ISK is not a factor. For a casual gamer like me, singularity is a much better experience overall. I get to try different ships multiple fits AND not have to waste time doing something I care nothing about like trading or missions.


So play on SiSi then.

Or purchase PLEX.

Or discover one of the many ways to earn ISK with little active effort. You can't seriously be proposing that EVE would be better without risk, that's simply ludicrous.


DO you really think that eve's marketing would sell ANY subscriptions if they told players that the best way to earn ISK in game is through trading, by looking at buy sell orders? You are kidding right? Market transactions should play a minimal role and honestly I would be happy for the entire market to go away. I don't need a realistic economy in a video game at all, show me how market trading makes eve more fun. *snip*

Edit: Be nice -ISD Eshtir

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.
Lauren Hellfury
Super Happy Awesome Fun Times
#134 - 2012-05-10 21:27:22 UTC
So basically you want an online spaceship shooter........ That's not what Eve is.

Help rid New Eden of T2 BPOs: ** https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=62797 **The Full Pocket Aggro blog:  http://fullpocketaggro.blogspot.com/ **Now showing: **Margin Trading Scams
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#135 - 2012-05-10 21:30:34 UTC
Lauren Hellfury wrote:
So basically you want an online spaceship shooter........ That's not what Eve is.


May I suggest Black Prophecy instead? :P

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Tradelita
Ducats in Buckets
#136 - 2012-05-10 21:35:27 UTC
cyndrogen wrote:

DO you really think that eve's marketing would sell ANY subscriptions if they told players that the best way to earn ISK in game is through trading, by looking at buy sell orders? You are kidding right? Market transactions should play a minimal role and honestly I would be happy for the entire market to go away. I don't need a realistic economy in a video game at all, show me how market trading makes eve more fun and I will show you aa pile of b u l l s h i t.


LOL. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#137 - 2012-05-10 21:38:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyndrogen
Lauren Hellfury wrote:
So basically you want an online spaceship shooter........ That's not what Eve is.


You are defining what eve is now?

Eve is a sandbox which means you can make and scuplt that sand into anything you want right?

Singularity is much more "EVE ONLINE" sandbox then TQ so yeah it makes sense to offer a separate server from TQ that has no market.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.
cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#138 - 2012-05-10 21:38:48 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Lauren Hellfury wrote:
So basically you want an online spaceship shooter........ That's not what Eve is.


May I suggest Black Prophecy instead? :P


Have you tried it? How is it?

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#139 - 2012-05-10 21:43:06 UTC
cyndrogen wrote:
DO you really think that eve's marketing would sell ANY subscriptions if they told players that the best way to earn ISK in game is through trading, by looking at buy sell orders? You are kidding right? Market transactions should play a minimal role and honestly I would be happy for the entire market to go away. I don't need a realistic economy in a video game at all, show me how market trading makes eve more fun and I will show you aa pile of b u l l s h i t.


You don't have to trade to make money in this game. But you do have to make money if you want to support a PVP playstyle. That's just how it is.
cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#140 - 2012-05-10 21:48:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyndrogen
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
cyndrogen wrote:
DO you really think that eve's marketing would sell ANY subscriptions if they told players that the best way to earn ISK in game is through trading, by looking at buy sell orders? You are kidding right? Market transactions should play a minimal role and honestly I would be happy for the entire market to go away. I don't need a realistic economy in a video game at all, show me how market trading makes eve more fun and I will show you aa pile of b u l l s h i t.


You don't have to trade to make money in this game. But you do have to make money if you want to support a PVP playstyle. That's just how it is.


I agree, but does it have to be that way? What would you rather do? Try to make isk so you can PVP or just have fun with PVP tournament / gladiatorial style, like unreal and wolfenstein but on a massive scale and with spaceships. I would definitely pay 14.99 for a pure pvp server. No markets, no miners no crap like titans, pos management, pi and supercarriers etc etc.

People who like PI only do it because of the ISK that it generates otherwise it's a pretty crappy version of sim city and not fun.
PVP IS fun and it's the best part for me at least of the sandbox experience, ship fitting and pvp are all I care about.

TQ is too much of a hassle for a casual gamer like me.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.