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[proposal] limit gang links to a single grid

First post
Author
paritybit
Stimulus
#41 - 2011-09-20 17:04:15 UTC
Nur AlHuda wrote:
Sorry to be rude but most people have no idea how the gang links work.

1. Gang links dont work in warp so ship needs to be stationary.
2. Gang links dont work when cloaked.
3. If CS is on grid nobody is calling it primary due to huge tank capability. If you call a CS primary you are doing somethink wrong.
4. If you cant kill a stationary uncloaked ship you suck at game.

And btw that someone has a pos is no reason to nerf somethink becouse everyone and his grandmother has pos for staging caps, fleets etc...


That's genius. I don't know why I didn't think to ask the gang to sit politely on their gate while I warp off to dock, get into a ship with a probe launcher, probe out their alt, take him out and get back to gate for a quick fight.

And, thank you, I know how gang links work. I still think it makes absolutely no sense to promote a meta where it's beneficial to have an alt in a combat ineffective ship sitting in space, at a POS, next to a station or otherwise not being part of the combat that it is providing spreadsheet statistics to.

Finally, I would like to point out that everyone and his mother do not have a POS for staging caps and fleets. Not all space battles are for sovereignty or involve capitals. Many of the better space battles involve fleets of single digit size. Gang sizes keep getting bigger because people keep adding alts and parking them in space.
Zephyrus II
Cardboard Enterprises
#42 - 2011-09-20 17:14:30 UTC
Given the force-multiplier, if the CS is in a gang of more than 10 or so fighters, you'd be doing something wrong NOT calling it primary after you've taken care of ECM and logistics.
Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#43 - 2011-09-21 13:19:07 UTC
paritybit wrote:
Gang links should only apply to the grid where they are active.

Off-grid gang links these days are pretty popular with "solo" players and small groups that operate in a single solar system.


And why would you want to punish small groups and "solo" players? They are already at a disadvantage to your[1] mindless blob of 50+ f1-f8 droids.

I say keep and even boost offgrid boosting alts, one of the precious few things that help single active players.

[1] "your" doesn't mean you personally.

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#44 - 2011-09-21 17:26:48 UTC
Zephyrus II wrote:
Given the force-multiplier, if the CS is in a gang of more than 10 or so fighters, you'd be doing something wrong NOT calling it primary after you've taken care of ECM and logistics.


Or even before if it's not one of the CS with significant EHP bonuses (because the lolEos isn't bad enough)

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Havak Kouvo
Doomheim
#45 - 2011-09-21 20:08:34 UTC
To do this, then they would have to change the mechanic so you can have multiple people boosting fleet at the same time, even if only one of the boosting is actually taking affect. This is because command ships can and WILL among the first targets in an engagment, so there need to be redundant boosters or else boosting becomes near useless in large fleets.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#46 - 2011-09-22 07:47:35 UTC
Havak Kouvo wrote:
To do this, then they would have to change the mechanic so you can have multiple people boosting fleet at the same time, even if only one of the boosting is actually taking affect. This is because command ships can and WILL among the first targets in an engagment, so there need to be redundant boosters or else boosting becomes near useless in large fleets.

You mean like squad booster, wing booster, fleet booster? The system is already in place and has been for quite some time, but people don't use it because it is more convenient to park a single uber-link boat somewhere out of the way. Even then it is a simple enough matter of using ones mouse to assign a new booster should the need arise ..
Usurpine
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2011-09-22 11:18:44 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:
The reason it encourages more blobbing is because practically no one is willing to sit in an unarmed ganglink ship in the middle of a fight, especially if they are heavily outnumbered. If you did put the link ship on grid in we'll say a 2 v 10 fight including the link ship, the very first thing that would happen is the other fleet would nuke the ganglink ship or drive it off grid, and then subsequently crush the lone combat ship.

Currently it works a bit different in the right hands. The boosting ship is reasonably safe because that 10 man blob didn't bother to bring a prober. All 10 of them are also obsessed with km whoring so no one brought a link ship of their own either. As a result, the lone combat ship on grid facing off against the 10 man gang is able to kite them or in some cases tank them (at least for a while) and put up a decent fight.

Like it or not, off grid boosting is currently about the only thing keeping "solo" and small gang pvp alive. Remove it, and anyone that's alone is just cannon fodder for the 30 man BC/BS gangs with full logi support and a cyno to titan bridge in 500 more if needed. And they won't hesitate to use it all against a single nano-cane if they can catch it. The only counter to that blob mentality is to stay out of hard tackle range so they can't all pile on you so easily. And it by no means makes you invincible either, all it takes is a single rapier on their side and they'll blob you to death regardless.

I believe boosting is working as intended and to change it as proposed would be a serious blow to the game as a whole. The absolute last thing this game needs is changing mechanics to favor blobbing even more heavily.

^This.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#48 - 2011-09-23 02:31:59 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:
10v1 isn't nearly as one sided as you might think. When solo, … with a loki booster alt.



This thread really does look like a case of you just moaning about being unable to use the ship yourself. Off grid boosters are very much a field leveling tool. They allow you to take a small weakness in an enemy fleet composition and convert it into a huge gaping whole that a heavily outnumbered force can pull a victory from. The loki + nano ship is the simplest and most obvious example, but a well flown active tanked ship + appropriate tanking bonus booster can be just as effective if dps/tracking is the opposing fleet's weakness.


I can fly command ships. I can provide fleet bonuses. To me it doesn't make sense that a ship that is not participating in a fight can influence the fight. Your whining is very similar to the nano-whines from back in the day: "the only way I can win fights is to exploit this game mechanic! You mustn't take it away from me!"

If fleet boosters had to remain on grid to provide boosts, there would be strategic and tactical decisions to be made: no longer would you just pile six gang links on a loki to give you more tank and better webifier/scram range. With on-grid boosters, you have to make decisions about tank, speed, and which boosters are most important to you.

This suggestion is about having to make a choice between having your cake or eating your cake. You shouldn't be able to have both.

But please, keep trying to play the "on-grid boosters would encourage blobbing because off-grid boosters are the only hope of defending against super cap hotdrops" card. It really is quite funny Lol
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#49 - 2011-09-23 02:49:49 UTC
flank steak wrote:
combat probes, use them you must


What use is that, when the ship has moved 50km away by the time you arrive on grid? You get to interrupt their bonuses for a few seconds while they reposition to a new grid, but then you have to probe them down again and warp to their new location.

Keep warping, little interceptor. You'll catch that fleet booster, if the enemy doesn't lay a trap for you first.

In StarCraft there is a unit called the Arbiter which cloaks all nearby units. The catch is that the Arbiter itself can't be cloaked. So it's a powerful unit, but it has a vulnerability. Then there's the Siege Tank which can hit units far away with a very powerful attack, but to use that attack the Siege Tank must commit to remaining stationary for at least three seconds (time to deploy, fire a shot, then withdraw). For every ability, there is a vulnerability: this is called game balance.

In the case of off-grid boosters, the vulnerability is being probed down. But you have a counter for that which is to be moving quickly and warp off-grid when someone arrives on-grid with you. Your links will deactivate, but only for a few moments. If they persist, you will know what they are flying. If the attacker is flying a cloaky ship they will not be able to catch you while cloaked.

When it comes to on-grid boosters, there is always the option of using grid-fu to stretch the grid in such a way that you can safely boost from hundreds of km away.

Now certainly, Information Warfare and the command ships which support it aren't particularly popular. There are ships with bonuses to repairs which would probably be better off with bonuses to resists (same tank. more EHP), but those are issues that can be addressed at the same time (or even prior to) removing the ability to fleet boost from off-grid.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#50 - 2011-09-23 10:50:53 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
This suggestion is about having to make a choice between having your cake or eating your cake. You shouldn't be able to have both

Yes you can have both, but it should required bringing more pastry chefs to the party .. :)
Mara Rinn wrote:
When it comes to on-grid boosters, there is always the option of using grid-fu to stretch the grid in such a way that you can safely boost from hundreds of km away.

Pretty sure CCP classified deliberate grid manipulation as "undesirable" (ie. exploitive, you will be GM smacked). Messes up the database or something .. way old blurp so won't try to find it, so don't ask :)
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#51 - 2011-09-23 13:23:23 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Pretty sure CCP classified deliberate grid manipulation as "undesirable" (ie. exploitive, you will be GM smacked). Messes up the database or something .. way old blurp so won't try to find it, so don't ask :)


Anchoring objects off-grid from a POS in order to force the grid around the POS to be smaller (and thus forcing all ships to be well within range of the POS guns) was declared an exploit. No other grid-fu was declared exploitative that I'm aware of.
Aineko Macx
#52 - 2011-09-23 16:49:54 UTC
I agree with the proposal, ships giving bonuses should be on grid.

Quote:
Also, the Fleet Command ships will need to be reworked to be able to have buffer tanks comporable to the Damnation; the Eos and the Claymore will need to lose their lolrep bonuses in favour of some kind of EHP boost. Shield tanking Fleet Commands may also need their slot layout revising, as the Command Processors replace tanking mids.

I agree.

Malcanis wrote:
Being required to be on grid would make T3 gangboosters effectively useless.

Considering T3s should never have overshadowed Fleet Command Ships, that's not a bad thing.
Arbiter Reborn
Perkone
Caldari State
#53 - 2011-09-28 03:04:13 UTC
t3 are supposed to be more specialised, i think if you want a particular bonus only and want it as strong as possible t3 should be the ship you use,

t3 boosting is just the new falcon alt. its a serious amount of bonus you get here. not to mention you can dic nullify it and it makes a great scout too + probes etc.

as for unprobability its still ******* hard to scan down a t3 running eccm, and any discusion about cs balancing isnt really the point here

i just want the old days of flying the claymore back.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#54 - 2011-09-28 09:41:22 UTC
Would support this if it were paired with a rebalancing of the Warfare Processor subsystems to make them more practical for on-grid use and a reworking of the squishier fleet commands.
paritybit
Stimulus
#55 - 2011-10-25 18:33:32 UTC  |  Edited by: paritybit
With T2 gang links this is only going to get worse; more bonuses at the cost of additional CPU and grid will keep promoting ultra-specialized characters who can fly all of your links on a single platform that is never exposed to any risk.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2011-10-25 18:56:10 UTC
Necro posting bad. Bad bad boy!

Still supporting making gang links only work on grid.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821

Laechyd Eldgorn
Avanto
Hole Control
#57 - 2011-10-25 19:57:28 UTC
bumb,
cos links ships are dumb
Solo Player
#58 - 2011-10-25 20:37:20 UTC
+1

Because it's silly to project fleet bonuses across solar systems. If you're not on the same grid, you are not an active part of the fleet.
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#59 - 2011-10-25 23:16:27 UTC
Not supported, unless the grid mechanics are also dramatically reworked as well... after all, if you're wanting to talk about weird meta stuff that affects combat in counter-intuitive ways, there is NOTHING that does this quite so badly as the grid. If you make any kind of 'on-grid' requirement for command ships, then what happens next is that more people start playing grid-fu, and suddenly all sorts of fights are taking place on ridiculous grids designed to isolate the CS from the battle while still keeping it technically 'on-grid'.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#60 - 2011-10-26 03:08:15 UTC
+1 agree whole heartedly, time for your bs loki **** to die.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro