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Ideas on making production better.....
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Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#21 - 2012-05-03 17:13:11 UTC
Sunzu Johnson wrote:
The input cost would be lowered....but so would the materials purchased...so less materials from producers purchased equal into less material cost. While it would take awhile to stabilize, so will the removal of drone alloys...it would balance out.

However the suggestion are to be taken as a whole, not as okay pick and choose. If they were all put into the game, I don't see where your argument would be valid.

Look at it like this....

Producers....mining, moon goo (which now all moon goo items are more available to everyone), reseachers (now they can pick and choose what to invent, rather then have to be limited by only one type of datacore per agent, and can also vary there research to the market trends). They could up with a price for their goods.

Manufacturers (you) purchase the items and turn them into useful goods....tacking on a fee percentage (profit).

Consumers buy your finished goods. But since now more materials are available, and since they require less materials per run to make, and the fact that you can make a wider range of goods....sell more.....what is the problem.

How does this increase the range of goods I can make? You are proposing to increase the effort I need to put into all of my manufacturing jobs and increase the time it takes to manufacture anything. I will be bringing less to the market under your proposals than currently.

Sunzu Johnson wrote:
Again...goes back to the datacore thing, you now have more available materials, at a lower cost....your profits are based off a percentage like mine, then the percentage would not change. So what the problem?


Hypothetical item: T2 Widget.

It takes me 70 hours to make 20 max-run T1 BPCs. It takes me 1.5 hours to invent each BPC into a 10-run T1 BPC. I have a 50% success rate. So after 100 hours in research, I can expect an average of 10, 10-run BPCs.

I buy T1 Widgets, RAMs, and components off the market.

Each T2 Widget takes 2 hours to manufacture, not counting building the components. So 200 slot-hours in manufacturing to build the 100 T2 Widgets.


Imagine buying all the materials from the market, it costs me 1M isk to invent and manufacture one T2 Widget. I can sell each one at 1.2M isk. Therefore, I can say my profit is 20% or 200k isk per manufacturing slot-hour. (Manufacturing is the bottleneck.) If I have 10 manufacturing slots and make T2 widgets 24 hours a day, I can make 48 Million isk per day.


Now, imagine all kinds of proposals happen to lower input costs, so that I only need to pay 500k isk to invent and manufacture a T2 Widget. First of all, all of the primary producers (miners, moon miners, PI farmers, datacore farmers) hate the fact that you just cut their income in half. Secondly, all of the other inventors in the market 1 isk each other to get their items sold. The new equilibrium price will be 600k isk each. It is still 20% profit, but now it is only 100k isk per manufacturing slot-hour. With my same 10 manufacturing slots, I can only make 24 Million isk per day.

Consumers like the fact that the price of EVERYTHING was just cut in half, but for primary producera and manufacturers, we like high prices!


Now on top of that, your proposal to be able to research BPCs. While I have not looked at the research section of T2 blueprints lately, I believe they are on the order of days per ME level for modules. Obviously even higher for ships.

So I have 10 T2 Widget BPCs to research. I want to research them from -4 ME to 0. Four levels will take 12 days per BPC. 12 days * 24 hours * 10 BPCs = 2880 research slot hours on top of the 100 hours to make the BPCs in the first place = 2980 total research slot hours. Researching is now the bottleneck instead of manufacturing. Now I can only make one T2 Widget every 29.8 hours instead of one every 2 hours. What did that do to my profit per day?


Now even if CCP adds a completely new system to research BPCs much faster than BPOs, that still requires me to do more work to touch each BPC before manufacturing. Every other inventor will do the same work. All of the inventors will keep 1 isking each other until a new equilibrium price is established.


More work. Same or lower profit. Why should I support this?
Haulie Berry
#22 - 2012-05-03 17:25:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Shoogie wrote:


More work. Same or lower profit. Why should I support this?


Excellent summary. Good luck getting them to understand. My experience has been that the belief that a universal reduction in costs magically translates into more profit is completely unshakable. These are the Flat Earthers and anti-vaxxers of internet spaceships.
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