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Looking for new pc: Any suggestions/help appreciated :D
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Zanza Mechonis
What is tax
#1 - 2012-05-02 00:54:37 UTC
At the moment I own a laptop, a trusty, 2 years and 5 months old windows 7 laptop that, even though I don't believe it myself at this point, ran most if not all games very easily with no problems.
As is common with gaming computers though, it's at this point in time very outgraded. I have to play practically all games on lowest settings, etc. etc., I even put in a new cooling system, but it overheats and powers down very easily. The longest I can remember myself playing EVE without it crashing is 30 minutes. 30. little. minutes. Right now I pretty much only log on to queue skills, so at least the time doesn't go to waste completely.

So, the obvious choice, is getting a new PC. I've considered building one myself quite some time, but considering my nonexistant knowledge of hardware and the usual lack of customer support, I'd really prefer a pre-built one. My budget for this would probably be around 2000 euros, preferrably less. (Especially considering I have to buy a keyboard and monitor as well :/)
I've looked around in my area, but to find something that's good in a big shop that's still affordable for me is worse than finding a needle in a haystack. The laptop I have, which is really, REALLY outdated by now, cost around 3000 euros... (The bad things about multinationals... Expensive as ****)
I'm trying to find ways to increase my budget, but I'm in high school, and although I can do some jobs, legally I can only do most when I turn 16 in my country... (Which is only in September this year) Coupled with that, I'm moving in a few months and the few places where I have applied denied me partially because of that.

Looking at the preferred specifications of the pc that I'd want, my biggest concern would be a great graphics card, one/some(?) of the best processors available at the moment, but not too sacrificial of virtual memory and cooling system. (I mainly care a lot about the cooling system as I have a bad habit of having a lot of tabs open on google chrome, and putting my pc in sleep mode every night. Also I'm often neglecting to get dust out of the inside of the computer unless it's really neccesary.)
The budget could be flexed a bit, or a lot depending on various factors (wether or not I can get a job, if I'll be spending a lot on other things (As I want to literally spend all my money on it... There's not much else I spend it on...), wether or not my parents are willing to pay a part, etc. etc. However I think the absolute max would be 5000 euro's, if I'm lucky 5750, but very likely not higher. (This is with potential shipping costs included, must be able to be shipped to Holland ^^)
Does anyone know specific sites I should check, perhaps certain computers that I should consider or anything else? Any help would be appreciated ^^

o7

"On the internet you can be anything you want... It's strange that many people choose to be stupid."
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#2 - 2012-05-02 03:26:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Allow me to raise your expectations.

5000 euro would get you a moster machine of nightmarish proportions that will be worth less than half in 2 years.
Even 2000 eur is an exaggerated budget, unless you plan to include multiple high-quality monitors in the price.
You can get a pretty damn good machine for half of that, even a decent machine for about a third. I would highly recommend trying to stay in the 1000-1500 eur budget area for the "box".
The monitors (how many do you want, anyway?) are a different matter. How do you feel about classic TN panel LCDs ? I personally loathe them (all hail CRT) so anything less than an IPS panel LCD would not be agreeable for my tastes.

If you live in Holland, you could probably order in from Germany, for instance, I hear mindfactory.de has decent prices. Not sure about their delivery policies. And no idea what good internet ordering sites are available in Holland. The only one I could find on short quith a quick google search was informatique.nl but their prices are noticeably higher than those from that site in Germany, so I am using below prices from the German site.
LATE EDIT : found one that looks reasonably priced -> komplett.nl - but they don't have the same wide selection as the German site.

A "monster dream machine" build would include something like 3-way SLI GTX 680 4GB (that alone would cost something like 1750 eur, and the rest of the machine needed to sustain it would also be quite a bit more expensive), but for most practical intents and purposes, even a single GTX 460 1GB (around 130 eur) should acquit itself nicely, and the best buy right now would probably be a single GTX 560 Ti 2GB card (around 220 eur).

As far as CPUs go, an Intel Core i5 2500K (around 190eur) should more than suffice, but if you insist, you can ramp it up to a 2600k (~270 eur) for minimal performance benefits at a significant extra cost, or if you insist, even a Intel Core i7 2700K (~290 eur).
The AMD bulldozer lineup is pretty lame though, but the older Phenoms are pretty decent and even cheaper. For instance, an AMD Phenom II X6 1045T 6x 2.70GHz costs only around 110 eur and while not quite on par with a 2500k, it's close enough for gaming purposes and should be enough for most modern games to work pretty damn smooth. Modern gaming is mostly GPU limited, with only a few exceptions.
For Intel, the upcoming Ivy Bridge has been sold in very small numbers and its launch was mostly delayed until later this year. If you can wait until they do come out, it depends on whether you are thinking about overclocking or not, if you are, stay away from them, they're not quite ready for that.

And so on and so forth. That was just the relevant "newer" info.

For more in-depth details about what to pick and why, you might want to go to this older thread:
http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1559734
While prices are no longer completely relevant, everything else is.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#3 - 2012-05-02 04:48:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
A decent enough but relatively inexpensive machine (compared to your initial budger anyway) quickly put together from the dutch site...

123e - http://komplett.nl/Komplett/product/intel_socket_1155/20154423/asrock_z77_extreme4_socket_1155_atx/details.aspx
Z77 motherboard for all possible chipset features, including support for future Ivy Bridge chips, but in particular, the "Smart Response Technology" (SSD caching). Only 2-way SLI support (and 2-way SLI sucks), so you're probably going to only use a single video card anyway.
ALTERNATIVELY, if you don't care about future upgrade to Ivy Bridge and not care all that much about PCI-E 3.0 either (plus be sure you only go single card), you might as well go with a cheaper Z68 mobo that still supports SDD caching.
82e - http://komplett.nl/Komplett/product/intel_socket_1155/20100906/asrock_z68_pro3_gen3_socket_1155_atx/details.aspx


152e -Intel Core i5 2310 2.9GHz 6MB socket LGA1155 - it really SHOULD be quite sufficient for gaming, and you can later replace it with an i5-3570k (3.4GHz, ~235e) or i7-3770k (3.4GHz, ~345e) when the second revision chips start popping up after they fix the heating problems.
http://komplett.nl/Komplett/product/intel_socket_1155/20083010/intel_core_i5_2310_2_9ghz_6mb_s1155/details.aspx
ALTERNATIVELY, even better, since it's not that much extra cash, get a 2500k and keep it, screw Ivy Bridge, wait for Haswell before upgrading further.
188e - Intel Core i5 2500K 3.3GHz 6MB socket LGA1155
http://komplett.nl/Komplett/product/intel_socket_1155/20070433/intel_core_i5_2500k_3_3ghz_6mb_lga1155/details.aspx

Honestly, the 82+188=270 eur for mobo+cpu is quite allright, IMO.

95e - Corsair Vengeance - 16GB 1600MHz 1.5V CL9 4x 4GB Kit
http://komplett.nl/Komplett/product/ddr3_modules/20071406/corsair_vengeance_16gb_1600mhz_pc3_12800/details.aspx

Oh, and you will want to use Win7 64bit of whatever flavour you want EXCEPT home basic (which only supports a max of 8GB of RAM). Home premium supports 16, professional and ultimate support up to 192 (not any chance to get there any time soon). You'll probably get this:
127e - http://komplett.nl/Komplett/product/besturingssystemen/20078624/microsoft_windows_7_professional_sp1_64_bit_oem_uk/details.aspx
See feature differences here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7_editions


78e - OCZ Vertex 3 60GB - SATA-600
http://komplett.nl/Komplett/product/ssd/20096507/ocz_vertex_3_60gb_2_5_sata600/details.aspx
105e - WD Caviar Green 2 TB - SATA-600
http://komplett.nl/Komplett/product/intern_3_5_/20082004/wd_2tb_3_5_sata_600_intellipower_64mb/details.aspx

Install your OS of the WD HDD first, then plug in the SDD, then enable SDD caching, make a single 60GB cache partition on your SDD and use it as such. This should give you huge amount of storage space, and the stuff you use most often will load at near-SDD speeds on subsequent loads (first few might not be so great while the cache still builds). Write performance will also be kind of "meh", but the alternative would be to get multiple larger SDDs or faster and much more expensive HDDs, so screw it.

Site has very slim pickings as far as video cards go, but this is quite sufficient for you:
204e - ASUS GeForce ENGTX560 Ti DCII/2DI/1GD5- 1GB -PCI-E
http://komplett.nl/Komplett/product/nvidia/20076109/asus_geforce_engtx560_ti_dcii_2di_1gd5_1gb_pci_e/details.aspx

69e -Cooler Master HAF 912 Plus - Mid tower - noPSU
http://komplett.nl/Komplett/product/midi_tower/80000961/cooler_master_haf_912_plus_mid_tower_nopsu/details.aspx
Has more than enough airflow, it's actually on the more expensive than I'd like for myself side, but since you insisted...

58e - Corsair - Builder series CX600 V2 - 600 Watt PSU
http://komplett.nl/Komplett/product/voedingen/20085754/corsair_builder_cx600_v2_600_watt/details.aspx
Slightly oversized, since even a 500W version would probably do, but should have enough of whatever connectors you'll actually need and never have to worry you don't have enough power.

So, all in all...

270e Z68 mobo + 2500k CPU
204e GTX 560 Ti 1GB
183e 60GB SSD + 2TB HDD
127e nice windy case + slightly oversized PSU
127e for OS (meh)
95e for 16GB of decent RAM

= 1,006 euro total for the "box" + whatever you'll be spending on a monitor or several monitors
...
+ shipping
+ mouse/keyboard/optical drive or whatnot else
-> still under your 2k eur budget

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-05-02 05:42:56 UTC
The newest laptop coming out are brillant when it comes to cooling. I've got the new HP envy 15 *no it's not out yet*, it runs without even a fan noise. only cost me 1100$ for an i7 ivy bridge 3.4 quad core, with a nice high end GPU you can turn off and on at will.

With the GPU off I can run eve on medium settings, and mass effect 3 on medium at 25 fps. It's sick. It gets about 10 hours of battery life gaming.

The future is lower energy use computing. If you want to be smart hold on to your laptop and get a nice beefy Desktop Sandy bridge desktop. Then get remote desktop. Now, here comes the badass part, you run your desktop remotely from your laptop anywhere with an interest connection. YOu can run Games at full graphics and you won't even have to upgrade or throw away your laptop. If you can get into the Bios and disable the GPU you'll get much better battery life *the newest laptop cpu let yo turn them off right on the windows 7 desktop*

Then in 3 more years, get yourself a laptop. If the resent trend is to be believed, laptops in 3 years should have 12 hours of battery life easily, and Beast mode anything thrown at it for years. I really do believe we are at the point where computing isn't going to get much faster, it's going to become more reliable instead.

I still can't believe how crazy cool to the touch this new laptops are, the new 3d transistors are going to change the way we game. Even mobile devices have 4 cores now. Have you seen what the Vita can run? or the new ipad and android phones? Fun times ahead.

And not liek the last 5-10 years of computer advancement, this is going to be a whole new breed of computers coming up. I really do feel for the 1st time in my 12 years buying laptops this is the 1st time I'm 100% sure this laptop will not be out of date and broken and still useful in 10 years. It won't be top of the line, but like how you used to need a powerful computer to run excel, now everyone PCs will be able to run programs like 3ds max, zbrush, after effects, at speeds that will always be useful.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Zanza Mechonis
What is tax
#5 - 2012-05-03 13:07:56 UTC
Okay, that was a LOT of info, and thanks for that link to the older thread btw, really useful, especially with those videos.
For storage, I think I'd generally prefer HDD just because, although I wouldn't mind using the SDD's at all... Just gonna take me a bit longer to figure out I think :P (I also still have a 500 GB external storage device that I could decide to perma-plug in... Which SHOULD give me enough storage for about everything I'd install on there in the lifetime of the computer easily.)

For the box: the Corsair Obsidian 650d is still about double cost (on the dutch site at least), so I'm not sure if it'd be that good a choice... I mean, the dust filter and easiness to get everything in really sold me for it, but the one you suggested seems really nice as well, as long as I get rid of the dust once a while. I'm not really sure, as it's personal preference vs almost 100 euros... I guess it'll mostly depend on the cost of the monitor(s) (of which I really only thought of 1... 2 would be very nice though if I could use 1 for games, including fullscreen games, and the other for skype and the likes) and keyboard.

For the rest, it all seems really awesome though, and I never expected to have something nice for such a cheap price... I guess I'll have to get an optical drive to at least read and install games, but a cheap one will be sufficient for that, I guess.
I'll still look around a bit for more stuff, but if I can't find anything that's distinctively better without costing much more, it's gonna be the parts you suggested. ^^ (With Win7 64bit ulti support I guess)

Thanks for the help, and fly safe o7

"On the internet you can be anything you want... It's strange that many people choose to be stupid."
Qui Shon
Lone Wolf Freelancers
#6 - 2012-05-14 15:54:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Qui Shon
Really nice posting Akita. ::thumbsup::

I'm in somewhat the same boat as the OP, my old E8500 + 8800GT seems a bit slow now too, and overclocking doesn't seem to help much anymore. I like to run three clients on it, sometimes four, and it doesn't work that well then.


So I'm teetering between 2500k (likely some medium overclocking) and 3750/3770k, likely not much oc.
Basically to run one pretty client at 1920x1080 fixed window and two or three minimal graphics 1024x768 windows on another monitor. Plus Evemon, EFT, 20+ tabs in Opera, TS/Mumble and maybe some media player movie/music on top, and some spreadsheet maybe.

Problem is I have no idea if hyperthreading will have any effect (i7 vs i5), given this app use?


And not sure on the graphics either. Maybe a 560 448 core at ~240€ local price, or maybe spend the dough on a 670 at ~450€. (Prolly 10-15% more then German/NL prices) I've heard that 1GB video memory might be a little low for running 3-5 clients, but that was about some other MMO clients.


"I'm too old for this crap" is a line that comes to mind when trying to make sense out of all this, yet still wanting the best bang for the buck...
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#7 - 2012-05-14 16:18:04 UTC
Akita T wrote:
For Intel, the upcoming Ivy Bridge has been sold in very small numbers and its launch was mostly delayed until later this year. If you can wait until they do come out, it depends on whether you are thinking about overclocking or not, if you are, stay away from them, they're not quite ready for that.


?!?

erm, yes they are.

This space for rent.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-05-15 08:02:23 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
OK I know I allready posted but more help! since prices and new ivy bridge CPUS are OUT! : D

16Gbs of ram ddr3 80$
new PCi3.0 motherboard 100$
Good PSU, 400 watts, 80$
Resent GPU, GTX 560 will only cost you 150$
Good case, 100$, cheap case 40$
Harddrive, raptor 500GB harddrive at 10,000rpms 100$
CPU, http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116505
200% for a crazy fast quad core

So in total , 650 will net you the sickest Desktop rig you've ever had, and it will scare you with it's performance.



or if you've got the money...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.930926
WAHBAM, 64 Gb of ram should do you. Plus a nice PCi3.0 GPU will cost you 400$. Still well below 2000$ You could even spend 400$ on a solid state harddrive.

but I wouldn't you'll never need more than 16Gb of ram, like, ever. WE're getting to the point where software is not going to follow hardware much longer. After effects was not blazing fast back in the day on 1Gb ram. And it's not today. However you use a 16Gb quad core comptuer for 3dsma, UDK, Unity, Afftereffects, and you know, this computer will never be out of date. It'll always bring you what you need, with easy to replace GPU on your new PCi 3.0 motherboard incase games really get that much harder to run.

RAWR, omg sick. Honestly how could anyone make a comptuer nowadays with more than 2000$, I have no idea.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Caleidascope
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-05-15 15:44:53 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:

Good PSU, 400 watts, 80$

On paper my GTX 460 requires 450 Watt PSU. Are you sure 400 Watt that you are proposing is enough?

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#10 - 2012-05-15 22:15:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
AlleyKat wrote:
Akita T wrote:
For Intel, the upcoming Ivy Bridge has been sold in very small numbers and its launch was mostly delayed until later this year. If you can wait until they do come out, it depends on whether you are thinking about overclocking or not, if you are, stay away from them, they're not quite ready for that.

?!?
erm, yes they are.

IvB "first revision" starts off cooler and using less power than SB, reaches temperature/power parity with a modest overclock, then gets hotter and more power-hungry with additional overclocking. Different heat spreading system and a few other technical issues (like current leakage) which you can google if you want make it be like that.
Stock speeds or mild overclocks, sure, IvyBridge is better, but past that you're more likely better off with SandyBridge for now, still.
Caleidascope wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
Good PSU, 400 watts, 80$

On paper my GTX 460 requires 450 Watt PSU. Are you sure 400 Watt that you are proposing is enough?

On paper, a stock frequency GTX 460 requires at most 160W for itself. Factory overclocked cards might need noticeably more power though. The rest of the machine probably uses up less than 150W (or much more, depends whether you overclock the CPU or not, and what CPU it is), so you should have an additional leftover 90W (roughly 30% extra) which should be adequate for PSU aging.
However, that's only for PSUs that actually manage to deliver what they promise - a high quality 400W PSU might even be able to provide more actual power than some cheap not-really-a-brand PSUs rated at as much as 550W, both when new and after significant aging.

Video card producers generally err on the side of caution with PSU recommendations, assuming you'll be using a "meh" PSU which is not really that new anymore and that you'll probably at least slightly overclock some stuff in your machine too.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#11 - 2012-05-15 23:55:37 UTC
Akita T wrote:
IvB "first revision" starts off cooler and using less power than SB, reaches temperature/power parity with a modest overclock, then gets hotter and more power-hungry with additional overclocking. Different heat spreading system and a few other technical issues (like current leakage) which you can Google if you want make it be like that.
Stock speeds or mild overclocks, sure, IvyBridge is better, but past that you're more likely better off with SandyBridge for now, still.


So, no actual experience yourself, then; just anecdotal information.

Even if what Google is telling you is correct, that it draws more power and generates more heat - this was not your point. Your point was IB is not ready for overclocking, when it is.

Please stand corrected.

This space for rent.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-05-16 21:46:08 UTC
oh, PSU are getting cheaper O.o

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341017

just make sure you buy something modular.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#13 - 2012-05-17 03:32:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
AlleyKat wrote:
So, no actual experience yourself, then; just anecdotal information. Even if what Google is telling you is correct, that it draws more power and generates more heat - this was not your point. Your point was IB is not ready for overclocking, when it is. Please stand corrected.

Lack of actual personal hands-on IvB overclocking experience notwithstanding, I have no reason to disbelieve the reports of overclockers regarding IvB... do you ? I also didn't manage to find even a SINGLE report of any overclocker that reports better IvB results than SB results at the time I wrote what you quoted, but then again, I have not spent a lot of time looking for one then, nor lately... can you please link to one if you saw any ?

You are technically correct, you CAN overclock IBs if you want to, but you can overclock just about anything. However, I said not QUITE ready for that, in that allegedly SB is still a better option for self-proclaimed heavy-duty overclockers, until the next IB revision hopefully improves the thermal spread and reduces current leakage. Until that happens, at best, the CPUs will just thermal-throttle and the "listed" overclock will go to waste, and at worst, the CPU will quite literally start to melt.

So, I do stand corrected in the "should have phrased it better" department.
Not yet ready to stand completely corrected before at least a few uncontested reports claiming better consumer-level (as in, not liquid nitrogen, dry ice, cascade or anything like that - water-cooled is ok though) IvB overclocking compared to SB alternatives (which are similarly priced or even cheaper).
If you can provide links, I will gladly stand totally corrected.

P.S. Personally, I heavily prefer NORMALclocking anyway, or even UNDERclocking (even going so far as disabling manufacturer-provided CPU "turboboost" dynamic overclocking, or taking factory-overclocked stuff and normal-clocking it again for regular use).

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#14 - 2012-05-17 11:18:27 UTC
Akita T wrote:
So, I do stand corrected in the "should have phrased it better" department.


That's all I asked - thank you for the clarification.

If you wish to start a thread on SB v IB, I'd be happy to read it.

AK

This space for rent.