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An open letter to CCP, the Gallente, and ORE on Mining Ships.
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Entous
Doomheim
#41 - 2012-05-03 03:56:29 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

I have another solution for you miners too : maybe you could organize yourselves into a cartel sharing gankers name, and share an intel channel where you track these gankers names and corps and their position. Organize yourselves, its a MMO.

Though, OP may be right : some other ships than the ORE one, with less yield than hulk, but more abilities may be useful, but you can already do a lot of things with standard ships and mining lasers. Maybe if you develop these techniques with standard ships, then CCP will give you something better at doing it ; that is often the way it work : how many years it took to get a noctis ? Though destroyers did it fine until they come. Even mining ships came after people extensively used mining battleship in the old days.

Stop asking a tanking hulk please, you will not have one, or it will always be killed by a few destroyers in seconds. Gankers will always adapt to kill you, get used to it, and adapt too.


The first part still leaves the major problem that Hulks are paper. Out of the EFT equation, both you and July left out a MASSIVE thing. Hulks basically take 100% damage from anything due to speed and resolution (At least I'm 50% sure on the resolution part, combat is not my forte and I'll say that all day long). A standard combat ship can get into the right kill angle on a hulk non-stop. Another combat ship? Little different. Add in the very long align time along with a bump and guess what, you're dead.

Adapt is what I'm actually trying to do, but to really do so we need to get away from the current mining ship model. The only way I can really put it is this. Real miners (i.e. those of us that actually enjoy mining, and think the mechanics of it are in a good spot) do not want more yield. It's not a problem if a big paper ship is the end in yield. I don't want a 100mn AB hulk. I don't want a cloaking hulk. However, mining ships based on other aspects are sorely needed. I wouldn't even be opposed to a true veldnaught, a cap mining ship. (Real mining ship, not a rorqual alt ship. That is not a mining ship. Just like an orca isn't. It's like calling a scimitar a missile ship because it's in a missile ship fleet.)

Miners are not looking for invincibility, and if you think that clearly you are already biased against high-sec carebear miners, but think your null-sec carebear miners are fine. We need ships to fill the gaps between 1.0 and 0.0.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#42 - 2012-05-03 04:16:13 UTC
Entous wrote:

The first part still leaves the major problem that Hulks are paper. Out of the EFT equation, both you and July left out a MASSIVE thing. Hulks basically take 100% damage from anything due to speed and resolution (At least I'm 50% sure on the resolution part, combat is not my forte and I'll say that all day long). A standard combat ship can get into the right kill angle on a hulk non-stop. Another combat ship? Little different. Add in the very long align time along with a bump and guess what, you're dead.


You've yet to show that Hulks having low EHP causes them to be unable to perform the two functions CCP has stated that they were designed to do. 1) Mine the Everloving **** out of some Roids 2) Mine in 0.0 without needing other ships to clear the rats.

Quote:

Adapt is what I'm actually trying to do, but to really do so we need to get away from the current mining ship model. The only way I can really put it is this. Real miners (i.e. those of us that actually enjoy mining, and think the mechanics of it are in a good spot) do not want more yield. It's not a problem if a big paper ship is the end in yield. I don't want a 100mn AB hulk. I don't want a cloaking hulk. However, mining ships based on other aspects are sorely needed. I wouldn't even be opposed to a true veldnaught, a cap mining ship. (Real mining ship, not a rorqual alt ship. That is not a mining ship. Just like an orca isn't. It's like calling a scimitar a missile ship because it's in a missile ship fleet.)

Miners are not looking for invincibility, and if you think that clearly you are already biased against high-sec carebear miners, but think your null-sec carebear miners are fine. We need ships to fill the gaps between 1.0 and 0.0.


If you want more mining ships, more power to you, but since CCP has repeatedly and explicitly said that the Hulk is always going to have the highest yield of any Mining Ship, nobody is going to bother using the ships you want. Mining is too one dimensional of an activity to allow for significant competition between ships.

What other aspect than yield is it that you want to see in a mining ship (keeping in mind that it will have to sacrifice yield to get it) and why would it appeal to enough miners to make it worth the Dev time?

N.B. Hulks can be tanked pretty well, but they have to give up some yield to do so. The number of tanked Hulks kind of proves my point about miners being unwilling to give up Yield.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Alyssa VonDeadAir
Doomheim
#43 - 2012-05-03 04:34:29 UTC
This is a troll right?

1) Join 0.0 corp
2) put some tank on hulk
3) watch local/intel
3a) No nuets/reds -> mine
3b) Nuets/reds -> safe up at pos
4) make money with 0 risk

easy enough right?
Vigilant
Vigilant's Vigilante's
#44 - 2012-05-03 16:44:49 UTC
Mine in BSBig smile
Entous
Doomheim
#45 - 2012-05-04 04:08:40 UTC
Alyssa VonDeadAir wrote:
This is a troll right?

1) Join 0.0 corp
2) put some tank on hulk
3) watch local/intel
3a) No nuets/reds -> mine
3b) Nuets/reds -> safe up at pos
4) make money with 0 risk

easy enough right?


Oh, I'm sorry, this only works for 20% of the population. If you want to go be a carebear, go for it. Joining a 0.0 corp is not very productive for a miner, or have you every actually pursued the profession of miner? You really do not see what's coming down the pipe, do you? When you are part of the cog that is second in the machine of the eve economy, you can't help but feel sorry for the cogs down the line because they don't see things turning bad for them. That's fine though, your loss.

Us miners, we know what's coming. Demand is going to outstrip supply. Right now, there is a bit of a balance because of the massive stocks of T1 items. If you thought tech spiking was bad, wait until the reserves of low priced modules being melted into minerals just to keep industry going wears out. At that point, T1 minerals are going to go up. Of course, you're going to say 'well then you can make even more isk!'.

No, that's not how it works. Bear with me here. At this time, there is a set amount of actual miners in eve. At times, that goes up and down as people make AFK alts and whatnot, but that's most likely not a huge amount. Over half the minerals coming into the game were removed, and if you believe that the mining population will double, you are quite mistaken. We'll either see minerals from asteroids increase by large percentages, or ships with higher yields. The latter is the best outcome for all of us, and the increase in yield only helps the miners. But hey, go ahead, say we don't need anything. The oil coming down the cogs is starting to get really thin, would hate to see those last few cogs start to break and be unable to be replaced.
Federigo Mondial
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-05-04 06:14:37 UTC
Dude you trolling hard ? If you want to mine with "some tank", use a mining BS. You can't have both "best tank and best mining yield" in the same package. ;)
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#47 - 2012-05-04 06:46:42 UTC
Entous wrote:
Alyssa VonDeadAir wrote:
This is a troll right?

1) Join 0.0 corp
2) put some tank on hulk
3) watch local/intel
3a) No nuets/reds -> mine
3b) Nuets/reds -> safe up at pos
4) make money with 0 risk

easy enough right?


Oh, I'm sorry, this only works for 20% of the population. If you want to go be a carebear, go for it. Joining a 0.0 corp is not very productive for a miner, or have you every actually pursued the profession of miner? You really do not see what's coming down the pipe, do you? When you are part of the cog that is second in the machine of the eve economy, you can't help but feel sorry for the cogs down the line because they don't see things turning bad for them. That's fine though, your loss.

Us miners, we know what's coming. Demand is going to outstrip supply. Right now, there is a bit of a balance because of the massive stocks of T1 items. If you thought tech spiking was bad, wait until the reserves of low priced modules being melted into minerals just to keep industry going wears out. At that point, T1 minerals are going to go up. Of course, you're going to say 'well then you can make even more isk!'.

No, that's not how it works. Bear with me here. At this time, there is a set amount of actual miners in eve. At times, that goes up and down as people make AFK alts and whatnot, but that's most likely not a huge amount. Over half the minerals coming into the game were removed, and if you believe that the mining population will double, you are quite mistaken. We'll either see minerals from asteroids increase by large percentages, or ships with higher yields. The latter is the best outcome for all of us, and the increase in yield only helps the miners. But hey, go ahead, say we don't need anything. The oil coming down the cogs is starting to get really thin, would hate to see those last few cogs start to break and be unable to be replaced.



Ok, so Demand outstrips supply. Prices go up (reducing demand) and the balance stabilizes at the new price.

When prices increase, you will have higher earnings for the same amount of effort (hauling and such). If you increase yield, you will make the same earnings (roughly) for more effort.

Now you do have a point as to the possibility that CCP will intervene, but what evidence do you have to the likelihood of their actions? They long admitted that the mineral price crash they caused with the Drone regions was a mistake, and the mineral prices before the drone regions were much, much higher than they're likely to get now (Mining used to be a 200m ISK/hr activity in Null). So I doubt that CCP hasn't figured out that prices will permanently increase and they're OK with that.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Alyssa VonDeadAir
Doomheim
#48 - 2012-05-04 19:01:40 UTC
Entous wrote:
Alyssa VonDeadAir wrote:
This is a troll right?

1) Join 0.0 corp
2) put some tank on hulk
3) watch local/intel
3a) No nuets/reds -> mine
3b) Nuets/reds -> safe up at pos
4) make money with 0 risk

easy enough right?


Oh, I'm sorry, this only works for 20% of the population. If you want to go be a carebear, go for it. Joining a 0.0 corp is not very productive for a miner, or have you every actually pursued the profession of miner? You really do not see what's coming down the pipe, do you? When you are part of the cog that is second in the machine of the eve economy, you can't help but feel sorry for the cogs down the line because they don't see things turning bad for them. That's fine though, your loss.


Actually, my main source of income is two hulks mining hidden belts. I not only have the minerals to replace any ships I lose in pvp, but I also make a good chuck of isk bringing my minerals to hisec. My characters are completely self-sufficient and not at the mercy of traders causing massive inflation.

Sounds like a productive living to me, I get to pvp and have my carebear too! =D
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