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Slavery: Opinions or Claims vs Official Statements

Author
Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
#1 - 2011-09-14 15:49:20 UTC
I received this official request from Imperial Armaments, Amarr's largest weapons manufacturer. It is a commentary on slavery from within the Empire. It is also a commentary on slaves and their attitudes toward slavery. I'm sure there are opinions to be expressed on this. Oh yes, I refuse such missions. If they didn't wish this information to reach the media, they should not have shared it with me. Illamur 3 Expert Distribution Retail Center is where the uprising is occurring.


Imperial Armaments Warehouse mission offer:

There has been an uprising at one of our slave Labor Reeducation Centers, or LRCs, near a rather large ore mine. The slaves are almost wholly Minmatar, so we cannot afford to have this incident continue for even one more day. The longer it goes on, the greater the chances that some reporter or news agency will get wind of this and splash the story all over the region. Given that the Minmatar Republic may feel compelled to take action to aid their brethren, this can only lead to dire consequences. That, of course, is unacceptable. We do have a plan in place, however, that should end this uprising before it has a chance to truly take root. We need you to transport a large contingent of Riot Interdiction Team (RIT) personnel to a designated station. From there the assembled security teams will join up and embark a small fleet of frigates and cruisers to race to the prison, where they will use all necessary force to terminate this uprising before it gets completely out of control.

Amarr Labor Reeducation Centers (LRC)
The Amarr Empire, realizing many centuries ago that it could not simply work slaves to the point of death, instituted a number of improvements to worker conditions in an effort to prolong the usable lifespan of its slaves. These changes were not universal across the Empire, due in large part to the Empress’s unwillingness to create what might have amounted to significant friction between slave -based companies. Therefore, these decisions were largely left to the Five Heirs and their subordinate regional offices. Thus, we can state here that history has shown a lack of consistent application of these worker improvement programs across the Empire. Those Amarr systems that have chosen to incorporate these adaptations have, however, consistently derived greater revenues due to these enhanced and ongoing pacification efforts.

These shortcomings led directly to the establishment of Labor Reeducation Centers (LRC). An LRC is designed much like a multilevel prison, with facilities for low, medium, and high risk inmates. The inmates are those slaves who consistently exhibit defiance or even outright hostility towards the managerial staff at the mine, construction site, or other location to which they are assigned as slave labor. Once we have identified these persons they are immediately removed from their job site and taken to the nearest LRC for corrective behavioral conditioning. This conditioning can include a wide variety of attitude modification methodologies, from intensive drug assisted counseling, to religious indoctrination, and from advanced torture techniques and a concurrent system of rewards - the so-called “carrot and stick approach” - and any number of programs in between. In this way, we break the individual slave’s will so that he may be returned to the workforce as a docile and useful component in the labor pool.

Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can.

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#2 - 2011-09-14 15:53:02 UTC
And what's your point?

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#3 - 2011-09-14 16:07:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Khross
So...

...okay, I am going to try my hardest to be tactful in my presentation here.

Not to disregard the information you've shared above (although I think most people already knew most of the details apart from the individual riot), but if you truly oppose slavery and the conditions under which slaves live why are you even doing work for a company that openly uses slaves?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but isn't it the Disciples of Ston that have repeatedly and consistently accused others of being guilty of supporting slavery simply by their silence and inaction? Further implication has been thrown towards those who work for Empire aligned companies and corporations that make use of slave labor or fund slavery-using establishments.

You are choosing to assist a corporation that clearly makes use of (if not at least supports) slave labor and is willing to engage in the above mentioned tactics that you found distasteful enough to betray their confidence and broadcast over these public forums.

I have to admit I am a bit disappointed, I thought you had more integrity than this on many levels. You have violated trust placed in you and have been supporting, through your efforts, a corporation that those you fund and support (namely the disciples) would openly and vehemently oppose and criticize for the use of those methods.

While I, myself, may find such practices as those above to be abhorrent and dishonorable, I also realize that in my position there is little I may do about it. However, one of the things I can do is not lend my services or support at all to such companies. I challenge you to do the same.

~Malcolm Khross

Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
#4 - 2011-09-14 16:21:39 UTC
Malcolm Khross wrote:
So...

...okay, I am going to try my hardest to be tactful in my presentation here.

Not to disregard the information you've shared above (although I think most people already knew most of the details apart from the individual riot), but if you truly oppose slavery and the conditions under which slaves live why are you even doing work for a company that openly uses slaves?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but isn't it the Disciples of Ston that have repeatedly and consistently accused others of being guilty of supporting slavery simply by their silence and inaction? Further implication has been thrown towards those who work for Empire aligned companies and corporations that make use of slave labor or fund slavery-using establishments.

You are choosing to assist a corporation that clearly makes use of (if not at least supports) slave labor and is willing to engage in the above mentioned tactics that you found distasteful enough to betray their confidence and broadcast over these public forums.

I have to admit I am a bit disappointed, I thought you had more integrity than this on many levels. You have violated trust placed in you and have been supporting, through your efforts, a corporation that those you fund and support (namely the disciples) would openly and vehemently oppose and criticize for the use of those methods.

While I, myself, may find such practices as those above to be abhorrent and dishonorable, I also realize that in my position there is little I may do about it. However, one of the things I can do is not lend my services or support at all to such companies. I challenge you to do the same.


You need to read more carefully. I do not work for companies that use slavery. In fact the mission was offered to me here in Minmatar space while working for a company that is accepted in Minmatar space by the Minmatar government. I keep my status with Amarr high enough specifically so I receive these offers and can expose the truth about them, so watch your accusations Mr Khross. Remember, I am not a Disciple and I may choose a different tone and approach. I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't catch the part about refusing the mission. I choose to build standing with the Amarr by working for the appropriate companies in Minmatar space. Gets your facts straight, Mr. Kross.

Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can.

Conventia Underking
Underking Family
Khimi Harar
#5 - 2011-09-14 16:50:19 UTC
This seems like a dangerous situation, but one which is being dealt with effectively... well, other than your refusal to assist.

For God; Salvation is Imperative, but not at the cost of our Humanity!

The Vitoc Problem - Conventia Underking

Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#6 - 2011-09-14 17:05:51 UTC
Edaine Numenor wrote:
IIf they didn't wish this information to reach the media, they should not have shared it with me.


Is it your position that it is morally sound to make any information one receives public simply on the basis that the source can be held solely responsible for providing you with the information in the first place?

You realize that you are saying that you cannot be trusted with any kind of confidential information, and private discussions do not exist as far as you are concerned, right?

You do know what the concept of 'trust' means I hope?
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#7 - 2011-09-14 17:07:22 UTC
I suspect the original post was an attempt to expose the hypocrisy with which some Amarr on these fine forums tend to try and present their Empire as a benevolent nation who has been respecting the Republic's border for the last hundred years and now have been cruelly attacked by the evil Minmatar. Fact of the matter is that the Amarr have been raiding Republic space for slavery regardless of any law, have not done anything to stop it, and their corporations have broken Republic law while in the Republic as well. But hypocrisy is an Amarrian virtue, as I mentioned before. One of the reasons I respect PIE: They do not try to hide their opinions and ideals behind facades of lies and self-delusions.

On the other hand, I doubt this thread will - or a better-presented one would - change anything. Memory tends to be short, and there will soon be new claims of the Empire's benevolence, there will be people who believe those, and there will be discussions on how we all could live in peace if we'd just stop fighting.

Wishful thinking works really well until it meets reality.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#8 - 2011-09-14 17:09:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Khross
Edaine Numenor wrote:


You need to read more carefully. I do not work for companies that use slavery. In fact the mission was offered to me here in Minmatar space while working for a company that is accepted in Minmatar space by the Minmatar government.


Uh-huh. So, simply because the company is in Republic space and accepted by the Republic government it automatically doesn't support or use slavery? Why do you think your original mission outline was so specific about wanting to avoid a media uproar? The point is, you are working for a company that uses slavery.

Edaine Numenor wrote:

Remember, I am not a Disciple and I may choose a different tone and approach. I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't catch the part about refusing the mission.


You've missed the point, Numenor. I did not ever state that you were in Amarr, I stated that you were working for company that apparently openly supports, if not practices, slavery. Which you are!

Nor did I ever once say you were a Disciple, I said you fund and support them. Which you do!

I didn't miss the part about you refusing the mission, I noticed it was actually plural (Oh, I refuse these missions), which means you've seen missions like this one or similar to it before. Which led to my question about why you are working for a company that supports, or makes use of, slavery. Which, again, you are!

The only part of your response that has any relevance at all to my original response to is this part:

Edaine Numenor wrote:

I keep my status with Amarr high enough specifically so I receive these offers and can expose the truth about them, so watch your accusations Mr Khross. I choose to build standing with the Amarr by working for the appropriate companies in Minmatar space.


You have answered my original question, which was:

Malcolm Khross wrote:
....but if you truly oppose slavery and the conditions under which slaves live why are you even doing work for a company that openly uses slaves?


For that, I thank you for explaining your reasoning. It does not, however change the following facts:

  • You are working for a company that supports and/or makes use of slave labor
  • The fact that the Republic permits the operation of this company within its borders has absolutely zero relevance to whether or not that company uses slavery, the very fact that you were offered a mission involving the "putting down of a slave riot" for that company should be telling enough


Do not misunderstand me, I have no problem with you seeking out hypocrisy and holding persons accountable to their sins. In this case, the practice and use of slave labor within the Republic (though I suspect the Republic is fully aware of the inner workings of Imperial Armament and tolerates it for political, financial or resource reasons - this is entirely speculative on my part and not backed by any factual evidence.) My issue here was simple curiosity over why you would be working for a company that makes use of slave labor if you are so opposed to it, a curiosity that you answered.

Edaine Numenor wrote:
Gets your facts straight, Mr. Kross.


I did, the first time.

~Malcolm Khross

Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#9 - 2011-09-14 17:13:35 UTC
Edaine Numenor wrote:

You need to read more carefully. I do not work for companies that use slavery. In fact the mission was offered to me here in Minmatar space while working for a company that is accepted in Minmatar space by the Minmatar government. I keep my status with Amarr high enough specifically so I receive these offers and can expose the truth about them, so watch your accusations Mr Khross. Remember, I am not a Disciple and I may choose a different tone and approach. I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't catch the part about refusing the mission. I choose to build standing with the Amarr by working for the appropriate companies in Minmatar space. Gets your facts straight, Mr. Kross.


I find this odd. Are you convinced that Imperial Armaments is giving you genuine missions even though you publicly announce that you are unwilling to work for them and that you are in fact trying to work against their interests?

Maybe you should get your head screwed on straight?

I would suggest you contact a news agency as suggested in the briefing and let them check it out if you honestly think there is something to expose and leave the journalism to those who are actually proficient.
Conventia Underking
Underking Family
Khimi Harar
#10 - 2011-09-14 17:14:41 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:
You do know what the concept of 'trust' means I hope?


It would seem he does not.

And, I hope all is well with you, Sir.

For God; Salvation is Imperative, but not at the cost of our Humanity!

The Vitoc Problem - Conventia Underking

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#11 - 2011-09-14 17:20:08 UTC
Malcolm Khross wrote:
The fact that the Republic permits the operation of this company within its borders
Out of curiosity, does anyone have actual facts about this?

For example, I'm not sure I would go as far as to say that the Empire "permits" the Republic Security Services to operate freely in their space and have them hand out missions to free people from the Amarr or to sabotage imperial infrastructure, especially considering we are at war, so I guess this is another case of the Yulai Convention overriding territorial interests?
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#12 - 2011-09-14 17:24:24 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
I Fact of the matter is that the Amarr have been raiding Republic space for slavery regardless of any law, have not done anything to stop it, and their corporations have broken Republic law while in the Republic as well.


I do not doubt there have been raids by those who hold citizenship to the Amarr Empire. That does not make such the raids legal. Such raids have and will be punished if discovered. In fact, I have captured and at times executed such illegal slave raiders many times myself.

As far as Republic Law goes, I'm not entirely sure about that, but I'm sure it is perfectly legal to hold slaves in the Republic under many separate conditions. No doubt many of them have been imposed on the Republic by Concord and SCC and the importance of interstellar trade and other concerns against the Republic's desires.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#13 - 2011-09-14 17:34:17 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Malcolm Khross wrote:
The fact that the Republic permits the operation of this company within its borders
Out of curiosity, does anyone have actual facts about this?

For example, I'm not sure I would go as far as to say that the Empire "permits" the Republic Security Services to operate freely in their space and have them hand out missions to free people from the Amarr or to sabotage imperial infrastructure, especially considering we are at war, so I guess this is another case of the Yulai Convention overriding territorial interests?


In that you might be correct, Sadik. I am not entirely sure about whether or not such a company is permitted to operate within the Republic's borders, but I doubt it could do so openly without their intervention if something were not holding them back. Perhaps that "something" is the Yulai Convention?

As it stands, the fact that such stations exist within Republic space leads me to believe that on some level, it is permitted to be there. If I have spoken inaccurately and it is revealed that the Republic is arm-barred into allowing the continued existence of such a station, then I retract the above statement. It should more accurately read "The fact that this corporation operates within Republic space..." anyway. I would be interested in learning more about it as well, personally.

Thank you for bringing that up.

~Malcolm Khross

Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
#14 - 2011-09-14 19:34:43 UTC
Khross,
Writing in bold italics with explanation points does not make your statements true. You make bold statements about who I am working for without citing any evidence. My citation from Imperial Armaments comes directly from them, but I am not working for them nor anyone else that I know supports slavery. Now it is your turn to give evidence, not just what you think is your own impeccable logic.

I am confident (not certain) that I am not working for anyone who supports or uses slave labor. I am open to evidence, not bold italics! If solid evidence is given, I will admit that I am wrong and change what I do as a result. Heaven knows I have been wrong before. However, I need more than opinion.

Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can.

Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#15 - 2011-09-14 19:43:55 UTC
Edaine Numenor wrote:
Heaven knows I have been wrong before. However, I need more than opinion.


Mr Numenor, I find this odd, since you have given us nothing more than your opinion until now.

Just typing something up and saying it is fact because you believe some else who told you that it is fact doesn't make it so.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#16 - 2011-09-14 20:01:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Khross
It occurs to me that perhaps I have read too much into your words instead of simply misreading them. I should indicate that I originally assumed you were working for Imperial Armaments (read: doing agent work for them) when you received the above job offer, which I realize was a mistake on my part. I did not take into account that you could receive such a job offer personally through your NeoCom mail service (though, I find it exceptionally odd that a corporation would trust such a sensitive mission to someone who was not actively building trust with them). I will explain my logic below and touch on how I came to the reasoning I did.

You indicated that you work for specific companies in order to elevate your standing with the Amarr Empire so that you can receive mission offers like the one you presented, though you did not indicate which companies you work for. I personally am unaware of any Republic-affiliated corporation that would also elevate your standings with the Amarr Empire, so the natural line of reasoning is that you are working for Imperial corporations, especially to have earned a level of trust substantial enough for them to trust you with that sort of mission work.

To my knowledge, other than capsuleer corporations, there is not a single Imperial corporation that does not employ slave labor or support (financially or industrially) the Amarr Empire (which supports and uses slave labor).

Obviously there is no way for me to present tangible proof of whom you work for beyond your own words, the evidence you have provided. In that regard, I have never once claimed my logic to be impeccable, I have simply explained to you where my logic comes from and why.

The facts, as I understand them:

  • You posted a job offer from an Imperial affiliated company regarding their slavery practices (a company which operates within Republic Space)
  • When questioned, you indicated that you work for companies in Republic Space that would help you maintain and keep a high enough standing with the Empire for them to trust this sort of work to you
  • In order to receive agent mission work from an agent, you must be actively elevating your standing with that corporation, its partners or its faction
  • Partners to the Imperial Armaments corporation are: Royal Amarr Institute, Carthum Conglomerate and the Sarum Family
  • All of the above corporations (or families) either make use of slave labor or fund it on some level


The only "proof" I can provide is the factual information I've given you in tandem with your own words. If I am mistaken in my line of logic, then I extend to you the utmost of sincere apologies and would, in turn, ask which corporation you are working for in order to receive job offers like the original one?

~Malcolm Khross

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#17 - 2011-09-14 20:12:36 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Fact of the matter is that the Amarr have been raiding Republic space for slavery regardless of any law, have not done anything to stop it, and their corporations have broken Republic law while in the Republic as well.


Fact of the matter is more that both of the Amarr and the Minmatar authorities are not doing their job in their own respective space. The former when these rogue slavers come back in the Empire (which is not always the case), and the latter when the same rogue slavers enter their space.


Arkady Sadik wrote:
But hypocrisy is an Amarrian virtue, as I mentioned before.


I am not sure it is a really good idea to fall into the usual blanket statements and generalisations. Especially in pot and kettles situations.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#18 - 2011-09-14 20:20:33 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:


Fact of the matter is more that both of the Amarr and the Minmatar authorities are not doing their job in their own respective space. The former when these rogue slavers come back in the Empire (which is not always the case), and the latter when the same rogue slavers enter their space.


This is hardly a fair claim, Farel. To expect the Empire and the Republic to intercept every single vessel that enters their space is a lofty goal. If it were possible, there wouldn't be a need for agents handing out work to capsuleers to assist them. Hidden jump gates, off-the-books vessel construction, forged documentation, connections in the right places can all be used to get vessels past the basic gate security, despite the valiant efforts on both sides to enforce law and safety.


~Malcolm Khross

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#19 - 2011-09-14 20:39:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkady Sadik
Lyn Farel wrote:
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Fact of the matter is that the Amarr have been raiding Republic space for slavery regardless of any law, have not done anything to stop it, and their corporations have broken Republic law while in the Republic as well.
Fact of the matter is more that both of the Amarr and the Minmatar authorities are not doing their job in their own respective space. The former when these rogue slavers come back in the Empire (which is not always the case), and the latter when the same rogue slavers enter their space.
Yes, indeed. The Amarr do not do anything against their main armamanets producer utilizing slave labor in the Republic, they do not do anything against the slave raids, and the most I see about this from the Amarr is that they talk about how this is totally not legal. Can you give me examples of what the Amarr have done to stop all of this? Because so far, this looks to me awfully much like the Amarr pretending to have certain beliefs that they do not actually have.

Likewise, the Amarr like to talk about how they do slavery only to educate the poor souls of the goodness of their god, while most arguments about abolishing slavery quickly reveal that they couldn't stop slavery without a significant hit to their economy, if they could survive it at all - so they need to retain slavery for that reason alone. Again, talking one thing while doing another.

These are concrete examples of hypocrisy. Which means that this:

Quote:
Arkady Sadik wrote:
But hypocrisy is an Amarrian virtue, as I mentioned before.
I am not sure it is a really good idea to fall into the usual blanket statements and generalisations. Especially in pot and kettles situations.
... is not a blanket statement, but a well-founded opinion based on observation.

I also note with amusement that it took exactly five minutes between me predicting that there will "soon be new claims of the Empire's benevolence" and Merdaneth implying that the Imperial Armamanets offer in the original post would not be "genuine" and hence totally not a reflection of Imperial doctrine.
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#20 - 2011-09-14 21:13:55 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
I also note with amusement that it took exactly five minutes between me predicting that there will "soon be new claims of the Empire's benevolence" and Merdaneth implying that the Imperial Armamanets offer in the original post would not be "genuine" and hence totally not a reflection of Imperial doctrine.


And yet there are still those that claim the Empire moves too slowly.
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