These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page12
 

Mining ship risk reward balance
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#21 - 2012-04-30 22:59:44 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Quote:
So, for less than the costs of 2 hulks these players were able to gank 17 hulks worth over 5 BILLION isk total with all but one of them being performed in high sec.

Which means we have an isk loss ratio of 10.44 to 1. So for every 1 isk the gankers spent, the hulk pilots spent 10.44.


A 30 million ISK Interceptor can warp disrupt a carrier worth a billion and a half. A HIC worth 200 million can point a supercapital worth 20 to 100 billion. Do any of those seem fair? Roll

Cost is not a reliable metric for effectiveness.

How did you Veterans start?
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2012-05-01 00:10:52 UTC
Kitt JT wrote:
The problem is not that hulks aren't tanky enough... look at orcas. they're pretty tanky and they die to suiganks too.

The problem is that miners think that since hisec is safe, they're entitled to not watching whats going on around them. Not watching local. Not watching those in belts.

I've seen people mining in a belt, and ship after ship gets popped, and they still stay there.... hmmmm, i wonder what could happen.

i've watched covetors and retrievers sitting in a 0.3 system mining belts, and i guess are either stupid or AFK, cause their will be soem frigs warp in, whcih then get popped by a destroyer or BC thatw as chasing them, which then gets ganked by the support BS that was coming to help the frigs, the ENTIRE TIME this miner sits their WATCHING THE FIGHT while mining, and never even attempts to align before the battleship targets and kills him in 2 volleys.

the thing is, its NOT that mining ships are weak, it's that somehow miners egt this "im safe" attitude to go AFK wherever they want and ***** about it later.

(did i metnion that after watching this fight go down, it was a VERY good day for me to be in a cov-ops with a salvager i was using earlier for cleaning up rat-wrecks? cause several fo the frigs were T2, so yeah, nice salvage.)
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2012-05-01 00:13:35 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Quote:
So, for less than the costs of 2 hulks these players were able to gank 17 hulks worth over 5 BILLION isk total with all but one of them being performed in high sec.

Which means we have an isk loss ratio of 10.44 to 1. So for every 1 isk the gankers spent, the hulk pilots spent 10.44.


A 30 million ISK Interceptor can warp disrupt a carrier worth a billion and a half. A HIC worth 200 million can point a supercapital worth 20 to 100 billion. Do any of those seem fair? Roll

Cost is not a reliable metric for effectiveness.

A city worth up to 500 billion USD can be annihilated instantly by a single nuclear weapon costing approximately 500million dolalrs, assuming they bought the primo-package for the missile. all of this before the UN can show up and stop the evil people form popping poor cities with their nukes.

maybe we should nerf nuclear weapons to not be so cost effective...


i gues what ims aying is, if a ship can only kill another ship worth less than or equal to itself, then that would be ********, the POINT of a military weapon si to be as COST-EFFICIENT AS POSSIBLE, youa lwasy want to cost your opponent more then it costed you, elsewise there is no point in waging war.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#24 - 2012-05-01 00:57:59 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
... (stuff)...

lol... you missed the point I was trying to make. I was illustrating to Mr. Risalo that "relatively cheap" ships can ruin the day of ships that are vastly more expensive.

How did you Veterans start?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-05-01 01:58:51 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Quote:
So, for less than the costs of 2 hulks these players were able to gank 17 hulks worth over 5 BILLION isk total with all but one of them being performed in high sec.

Which means we have an isk loss ratio of 10.44 to 1. So for every 1 isk the gankers spent, the hulk pilots spent 10.44.


A 30 million ISK Interceptor can warp disrupt a carrier worth a billion and a half. A HIC worth 200 million can point a supercapital worth 20 to 100 billion. Do any of those seem fair? Roll

Cost is not a reliable metric for effectiveness.


I'm glad you got a thumb up on that post.

Yet, what you failed to express in that post is that it takes significantly more isk to actually take down that carrier or super capital than just that interceptor or HIC, while all the time it still just takes 1 or 2 destroyers pop a hulk.

Try to take down a titan with just 2 HICs and you'll be laughed away. However, bring a good amount of high damage dealing ships with you and sure, you might take it down, or you might get hotdropped by billions of isk worth of ships.

Ganking industrial ships is the only thing done in Eve where people actually try to bring less ships.
GizzyBoy
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#26 - 2012-05-01 02:35:57 UTC
so if the primary reason of the complaint is cost of ship to gank vrs cost of ship being ganked.

Perhaps they can relook at the cost to build & invent the hulk in the first place.
the current price isn't reflective in its true cost to invent and build and to the invent / build crowd this represents a @#$ ton of isk & profit currently.

the only thing making the hulk a 300 mill ship, is current player demand, after a number of years of declining market demand due to low min prices, suddenly every one wants to afk mine them a bit of trit and other mins for their ammo or to sell to market.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2012-05-01 02:44:50 UTC
are people seriously pointing to supercaps as an example of balancing?
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2012-05-01 04:01:54 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
fit a tank instead of cargo and mlu buffs

request denied



ultimately this really will not help.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2012-05-01 04:04:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
Danika Princip wrote:

You do realise cost is irrelevant when it comes to ship balance, right?


this is only vaguely true.. for the more part the more expensive the ship the more powerfully it can be tanked. I believe the op quite reasonable ask for a re-examination of the balance based on the ship description.. what he didn't do was ask for a mighty hulk unbreakable tank.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Velicitia
XS Tech
#30 - 2012-05-01 12:50:12 UTC
TBH, the barges are fine. The real problem is the belts themselves.

Hulk Description:
Quote:

The Hulk is the largest craft in the second generation of mining vessels created by the ORE Syndicate. Exhumers, like their mining barge cousins, are equipped with electronic subsystems specifically designed to accommodate Strip Mining modules. They are also far more resilient, better able to handle the dangers of deep space. The Hulk is, bar none, the most efficient mining vessel available.


First off, "Deep Space" IS NOT that guy over there with a full rack of 1400mm arties. Deal with it.

So, what "dangers" can be in deep space? How about the belts themselves being destructive?

Hisec -- moderate/low DPS to the mining frigates and cruisers. Non-industrial/mining classed vessels (i.e. the rest of the frigates, cruisers, bc/bs) take moderate-high DPS, and also have their sensors negatively affected*. Industrials and T1 barges shields are more resilient to this stuff and don't take damage.

Lowsec -- Moderate-High DPS to non-barge mining vessels. High damage to non-industrial/mining vessels, and sensors even more negatively affected than in HS. Low/Moderate DPS to T1 barges/industrials. Exhumers and DST take low/no damage

Nullsec -- you really don't want anything there except hulks/T2 haulers/Orca/Rorqual. The only non-industrial/mining classed vessel that can survive for an appreciable amount of time is a BS...

*negative effects to sensors can be either:
1. Scan Resolution gets reduced by some factor (note, does not apply to mining barges)
2. ships "inside" the belt get a reduction to sig radius
3. both 1 & 2

This is obviously a reql quick "back of the napkin" thought ...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-05-01 13:19:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Ok, here's what I think is a major factor.

1) could use an over EHP buff

2) Needs a buff to cap, cpu, and powergrid so that it's actually able to fit a decent tank

3) Maybe add a midslot or two



The way I look at it is hulks need the ehp buff because they're way too easy to take down by any means.
Then give them a buff to cap, cpu and powergrid, but make it just enough of a buff to where they have to choose between tank and yield/afterburner which means they decide whether they yield better or survive better.
The added midslot or two would either allow more tank, or an afterburner/survey scanner.

The question I have is, how many other ships in Eve don't have enough cpu or powergrid to be able to fit their class's size shield booster or afterburner??

Seriously, they can't fit a 10mn afterburner unless they don't fit one of their strips, and they can't fit a medium shield booster AT ALL.

P.S.

If fitting a tank on a hulk were the difference of fitting a tank on a caracal or not I would completely understand telling them to fit tanks.
However, this is not the case and the hulk couldn't even come close to the tank of a caracal, if even any cruiser.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2012-05-01 14:06:37 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:

You do realise cost is irrelevant when it comes to ship balance, right?


this is only vaguely true.. for the more part the more expensive the ship the more powerfully it can be tanked. I believe the op quite reasonable ask for a re-examination of the balance based on the ship description.. what he didn't do was ask for a mighty hulk unbreakable tank.



Please, tell me again how it should not be possible for a hurricane to kill a tengu. Or a rifter to kill a battleship. Or a drakefleet to kill a BS fleet. or five guys in drakes to kill a black ops, or for a thrasher to kill much of anything.

Pretty well anything in EVE can kill pretty well anything else. this is a GOOD THING.

Cost is not a balancing factor. If you try to use it as one, you end up with the situation we have today with supercaps.

Ship descriptions are irrelevant too. Just look at marauders or DSTs.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-05-01 14:18:28 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:

You do realise cost is irrelevant when it comes to ship balance, right?


this is only vaguely true.. for the more part the more expensive the ship the more powerfully it can be tanked. I believe the op quite reasonable ask for a re-examination of the balance based on the ship description.. what he didn't do was ask for a mighty hulk unbreakable tank.



Please, tell me again how it should not be possible for a hurricane to kill a tengu. Or a rifter to kill a battleship. Or a drakefleet to kill a BS fleet. or five guys in drakes to kill a black ops, or for a thrasher to kill much of anything.

Pretty well anything in EVE can kill pretty well anything else. this is a GOOD THING.

Cost is not a balancing factor. If you try to use it as one, you end up with the situation we have today with supercaps.

Ship descriptions are irrelevant too. Just look at marauders or DSTs.


This is true...Most any sub capital ship can take out any other sub capital ship if it's done right.

The question though is, how many of these ships above a frigate class ship can be alpha'd down before a concord response by a single destroyer?
RavenTesio
Liandri Corporation
#34 - 2012-05-01 14:30:08 UTC
This is why Industrials /should/ be part of a Corporation who understands that Mining is NOT the only job in EVE Online.
Sure sitting in a more dead system is a stop-gap solution, but people WILL find you because of the simple truth that ISK and Standing Risk vs Reward is just too good.

In a GOOD Corporation you will always have a defensive force close-by to protect their interests.
Hell I never let my miners just sit there AFK without atleast a Drake sat with them, Miners could also always have an alt specifically setup to do this as well; you multi-box anyway, just ONE as a Combat Pilot could save you Billions.

Stop crying about how paper thin the dedicated industrial ships are, fit them with a tank and keep back up.
Many combat pilots don't say "Fly Safe, Fly Smart" because it's a stupid meme.
Teshania
Silent Lazy Miners
#35 - 2012-05-01 14:34:56 UTC
Ok i mine more often then not..

You can tank a damn hulk. Its called drop the MLUII and put in Damage Control II and MAPU and through on a medium shield extender with some Resists. Now that will make gangkers work together to blow you up ^^.. They would have to dish out over 22k damage before concord shows up.. Trust me thats not an easy task sometimes.. Stay aligned and watch your grid. If you see a damn Destory, or BC drop into your belt warp out.

Enough said.

We need a Bounty Button on the Forums
Animorpheus Aven
Legion of Anarchy
#36 - 2012-05-01 16:25:16 UTC
How much do you approximately get from salvaging a Hulk?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-05-01 16:26:02 UTC
RavenTesio wrote:
This is why Industrials /should/ be part of a Corporation who understands that Mining is NOT the only job in EVE Online.
Sure sitting in a more dead system is a stop-gap solution, but people WILL find you because of the simple truth that ISK and Standing Risk vs Reward is just too good.

In a GOOD Corporation you will always have a defensive force close-by to protect their interests.
Hell I never let my miners just sit there AFK without atleast a Drake sat with them, Miners could also always have an alt specifically setup to do this as well; you multi-box anyway, just ONE as a Combat Pilot could save you Billions.

Stop crying about how paper thin the dedicated industrial ships are, fit them with a tank and keep back up.
Many combat pilots don't say "Fly Safe, Fly Smart" because it's a stupid meme.


having someone there to guard your miners does no good in high sec because it's about alpha.. They're trying to blow up that mining ship before concord arrives, which means your drake won't have time to even lock the gankers before they take out your hulk. Not to mention that unless you want to drake to get ganked, then you can't fire till after they fire, which means your hulk dies anyway.

Quote:
Ok i mine more often then not..

You can tank a damn hulk. Its called drop the MLUII and put in Damage Control II and MAPU and through on a medium shield extender with some Resists. Now that will make gangkers work together to blow you up ^^.. They would have to dish out over 22k damage before concord shows up.. Trust me thats not an easy task sometimes.. Stay aligned and watch your grid. If you see a damn Destory, or BC drop into your belt warp out.

Enough said.


The difference between a tanked hulk and an untanked hulk is a destroyer, and maybe a frig.
Not too complicated.
Previous page12