These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Turn Caldari Gunships into missile ships with instant damage missiles.

Author
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-04-28 08:35:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Darthewok
Current situation with Caldari gunships:
1) CCP cannot really improve them because if they did, Caldari gunships would overlap or take over Gallente gunships.
2) If CCP improved railgun damage to improve Caldari gunships, they may end up as overpowered on Gallente gunships with the damage bonus.
3) Caldari gunships only really exist because missiles have no instant damage which is terrible in fleet fights.
4) Caldari who trained missiles find them useless on half of their ships.

Suggestion
1) Turn all the Caldari gunships into missile ships with bonuses to use a new kind of high-speed missile that causes instant or near-instant (but low) damage.

Then CCP is free to design the Caldari and Gallente ship lines free of limitations due to using the same weapon system (hybrids) for 2 lines.
CCP will then be free to let loose creativity on all kinds of interesting missiles for Caldari ships to shake up tactics.
And they can then buff the Megathron to be strong without having to be concerned about the knock-on effects to the Rokh.
Think about it.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2012-04-28 08:52:37 UTC
Rumor has it that Caldari gunships might have their bonuses changed to be something similar to what the Naga has (range and damage).

Just a rumor though. But it would make for an interesting shake-up that might bring viability to ships like the Moa and Rokh.
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-04-28 08:56:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Darthewok
ShahFluffers wrote:
Rumor has it that Caldari gunships might have their bonuses changed to be something similar to what the Naga has (range and damage).


5% damage 10% range bonus. Interesting and not bad.
Problem still remains though for boosting Caldari gunships.
They end up competing directly with Gallente gunships and have severe problems differentiating themselves.

I say, just delink the whole 2 lines. No more same weapons for both.
Let Caldari and Gallente design develop independently into missiles and hybrids respectively.
This would give rise to more variety overall, provided new missile types are innovated.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#4 - 2012-04-28 09:02:07 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Darthewok wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Rumor has it that Caldari gunships might have their bonuses changed to be something similar to what the Naga has (range and damage).

5% damage 10% range bonus. Interesting and not bad.
Problem still remains though for boosting Caldari gunships.
They end up competing directly with Gallente gunships and have severe problems differentiating themselves.

Not really. Gallente gunships typically get bonuses for tracking and damage (making them very good short range brawlers). Range and damage bonuses can be applied to do entirely different, yet similar, things (ex. The Naga equipped with neutron blasters and null ammo can actually kite targets at stupid ranges... similar things can be done in a Rokh).
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-04-28 09:06:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Darthewok
OK, well perhaps Caldari and Gallente gunships can each find their niche.
Still I don't think they are differentiated from each other to the extent they would be if they used totally different types of weapons.
(Hybrids and missiles).
Besides I feel missiles are not innovated enough to fully bring out that weapon's flavor.
There should be certain types of missiles only Caldari can use on special bonused ships that are viable in instant-damage situations like fleet fights that are still fundamentally different from other weapons.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#6 - 2012-04-28 09:17:50 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Darthewok wrote:
OK, well perhaps Caldari and Gallente gunships can each find their niche.
Still I don't think they are differentiated from each other to the extent they would be if they used totally different types of weapons.
(Hybrids and missiles).

I can assure you, the bonuses make each weapon's application different.
If a Gallente gunship with a damage and tracking bonus uses railguns it will not hit out as far as a Caldari ship will. It will hit more accurately though.
If a Caldari ship with a damage and range bonus uses blasters, it will not be able to hit stuff at point blank range. It will be able to hit out farther and and use kiting tactics similar to a Minmitar ship more effectively though.

Darthewok wrote:
There should be certain types of missiles only Caldari can use that are viable in instant-damage situations like fleet fights that are still fundamentally different from other weapons.

You might as well ask to change all missiles to this type then as very few people would use normal, "delayed," missiles should these "instant" missiles be available.
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-04-28 09:48:41 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:

Darthewok wrote:
There should be certain types of missiles only Caldari can use that are viable in instant-damage situations like fleet fights that are still fundamentally different from other weapons.

You might as well ask to change all missiles to this type then as very few people would use normal, "delayed," missiles should these "instant" missiles be available.


Yeah, I get your point.
However, pros and cons and limitations can easily be created to allow them to be viable only on the current sniping role Caldari ships. For example, give them pathetic damage except on certain bonused ships, high fitting requirements except on certain ships with fitting bonuses etc etc.
For example, make the instant missiles do 50% the damage of regular missiles and give the Rokh a 50% bonus to the damage of these missiles.

Alternatively, it could be not a new type of missile but a special module that reduces missile flight time that is fitable only to a small number of Caldari ships.
eg. Missile Warp Generator. 10000 CPU, Effect: Warps missiles, cutting missile flight time to 0.
Rokh bonus: -9900CPU to fit Missile Warp Generator.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

Reldor Silverheart
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-04-28 10:30:11 UTC
Youy have to consider the basis of why they share the same platforms to an extent, keep in mind that Gallente and Caldari was the same at one point, and that i believe is where the shared platforms comes from aswell. The thing that essentially set the two appart now is the fact that Caldari is more missile heavy, and gallente more drone heavy,

The base still stands the same, and even then some of the Gallente ships does have launcher slots, given they aren't the most useful they are still there.

And, onto a more mechanical discussion. Making Caldari gunboats have damage and range would be a nice thing to see, making them the long range snipers, while as someone else pointed out gallente being the close range brawlers with their tracking+damage bonus.
stoicfaux
#9 - 2012-04-28 11:40:49 UTC
Micro Jump Missile Launchers. Similar to how a micro-jump drive can teleport your ship 100km, the micro-jump launchers teleport/warp your missiles to within a few seconds flight time of the target. Downside would be that the launchers require cap. The other downside is that it makes defender missiles even less useful (not to imply that defenders are useful now.)

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-04-28 12:52:43 UTC
Darthewok wrote:
Current situation with Caldari
Suggestion
1) Turn all the Caldari gunships into missile ships with bonuses to use a new kind of high-speed missile that causes instant or near-instant (but low) damage.



Yes because yet another low damage missile system is DEFINETLY WHAT WE NEED ! ... I mean we have the cruises allready .. and torps (that without a special setup and special ship and special bonuses and 1000 targetpainters suck major balls in any real deal situation)

Roll
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-04-28 13:20:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Darthewok
Cedo Nulli wrote:
Darthewok wrote:
Current situation with Caldari
Suggestion
1) Turn all the Caldari gunships into missile ships with bonuses to use a new kind of high-speed missile that causes instant or near-instant (but low) damage.



Yes because yet another low damage missile system is DEFINETLY WHAT WE NEED ! ... I mean we have the cruises allready .. and torps (that without a special setup and special ship and special bonuses and 1000 targetpainters suck major balls in any real deal situation)

Roll

In fleets the problem is not the damage. Its the delay in damage that renders Caldari ships quite useless in large gangs where the primary is dead from the other races' ships guns before the missiles even reach it.
This is why the raven is laughed at in many fleet doctrines, and missile users are often seen as lolol carebearrrr.
This is why CCP has the Rokh as a gunship not a missile ship. Because otherwise the Caldari has no viable instant damage ship for large fleet warfare.
This is why missiles are a small niche in PVP used only on a relatively small number of ships instead of an equal counterpart to projectiles, lasers and hybrids.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#12 - 2012-04-28 13:53:19 UTC
Darthewok wrote:
And they can then buff the Hyperion to be strong without having to be concerned about the knock-on effects to the Rokh..


fixed that for you

thhief ghabmoef

Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-04-28 14:22:23 UTC
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Darthewok wrote:
And they can then buff the Hyperion to be strong without having to be concerned about the knock-on effects to the Rokh..


fixed that for you


Yeah. There are is a lot of overlap between gunships in the Caldari and Gallente lines.
For example also the Brutix and Ferox in the BC class.

stoicfaux wrote:
Micro Jump Missile Launchers. Similar to how a micro-jump drive can teleport your ship 100km, the micro-jump launchers teleport/warp your missiles to within a few seconds flight time of the target. Downside would be that the launchers require cap. The other downside is that it makes defender missiles even less useful (not to imply that defenders are useful now.)


nice. MJM MicroJump Missles. Cap hungry is a good idea.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#14 - 2012-04-28 14:37:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Just Alter
I didnt even read the thread but missiles should NEVER be istant.

I say, let modify missiles like so: a f*ckton more dps and alpha and even longer flight time(not distance though)

It's hard to exploit in fleets because by the time the missiles arrive the target had the time to overheat everything and all the logis are targeting him, so it would have the same chances to die as today alphafleets targets do.

It's also hard to exploit in pve because rats would have their defenders improved.

In the end caldari missile ships would have a slight buff to dps and dps application while keeping their characteristic traits, weaknesses and strengths unaltered.

There you go: fixed pve and pvp viability of missiles without ruining the game complexity.

Sad thing if ccp will ever touch missiles they're going to **** it up beyond belief.
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy
#15 - 2012-04-28 15:23:29 UTC
Lock on after launch option for cruise missiles.
Area of effect damage for Torps.

Thank you please :)
MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#16 - 2012-04-28 16:52:18 UTC
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:
Lock on after launch option for cruise missiles.
Area of effect damage for Torps.

Thank you please :)


How about 'home on jam' as an option?

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet

Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-04-30 14:23:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Skippermonkey
wouldnt it just be easier to drastically increase missile velocities while reducing the flight time to compensate

I would be much more inclined to fly missile ships if i didnt have to wait as long for the damage to be applied

TBH, im not sure there will be many people against this proposed change

stoicfaux wrote:

The other downside is that it makes defender missiles even less useful (not to imply that defenders are useful now.)
They need to be removed from the game anyway

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION

Lili Lu
#18 - 2012-04-30 14:56:59 UTC
http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20
#1 Drake 317k, #2 Maelstrom 105k
#1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 138k, #2 425mm Autocannon II 44k

I think you need to be more specific about what you perceive as the downside to missiles in pvp. If you want to complain about cruise missile flight time and damage ok maybe. But to say missiles in general are locked out of pvp use is quite a whopper.

Certainly some speed buff (and flught time nerf) to missiles as long as it doesn't break the physics engine of the game would help overcome the mixed gang inability to top the killboard damage dealt aversion. But there is presently no lack of missile use in pvp. If missiles got instant damage the above stat would even further skew toward Drakes and heavy missiles to an even more ridiculous extent.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-04-30 15:36:16 UTC
Give Gellente moar drones!!!!

No Worries

Copine Callmeknau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2012-04-30 15:52:12 UTC
Couldn't you just do this by having a role bonus on those ships along the lines of (900% increase to missile velocity, -90% to flight time)

There should be a rather awesome pic here

12Next page