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How highsec miners threaten EVE, and how we can stop them. Manifesto II.

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Sigurd Sig Hansen
Doomheim
#261 - 2012-04-27 13:59:23 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:

Remember the epic mmo Ultima Online? They ruin it, all that was left was a hollow game, with fever and bleeding diathesis...


funny I yahoo searched for it and its still "available now"
But then when did that game come out? Cause time has a tendancy to kill games too, not JUST carebear tears.

Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#262 - 2012-04-27 14:02:38 UTC
Of the many people that didn't read all your post, I'd like to say, You are still an idiot. Continue on.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Doomheim
#263 - 2012-04-27 14:02:48 UTC

Where do I fit in? I never tank my hulk, I ONLY mine in system where theres NOONE ELSE there and do my homework to find such systems. Ive been in the game since 2005 (on a main) and have never had a Hulk ATTACKED much less killed by a ganker.

Then again, WERE I to lose a Hulk to a ganker Id suck it up and move on not QQ to CCP to fix the problem cause it was my fault not theirs that I lost it

Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Jafit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#264 - 2012-04-27 14:04:51 UTC
TL;DR: Eve has problems.
Lharanai
Fools of the Blue Oyster
#265 - 2012-04-27 14:04:55 UTC
oh my good (and I am agnostic), I can't believe I read that in full, must be the masochist in me.

some things the OP seems to have forgotten

1. EVE IS A GAME
2. Only a minority of all EVE players is on the forums
3. I am relatively sure, a majority of EVE players do not care about meta-gaming in EVE
4. EVE IS A GAME
5. Buuhuuu they are not playing as I want, these evil carebears
7. EVE IS A GAME YOU PLAY, and most people do it for fun not for DRAMA

stuff said, can't tell if I am angry about the nonsense of the OP, my stupidity to read and post on it or in general to care about things written in the forum.

Seriously, don't take me serious, I MEAN IT...seriously
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#266 - 2012-04-27 14:07:19 UTC
Daesul ShadoWind wrote:
I'm starting to wonder if any of you guys even watched the keynotes for fanfest.

From what I took from the keynotes about the new crimewatch.

If anything there going to make PVP easier in highsec by making crime watch KILL you only after you make the kill.
You can shoot, warp jam but this all Flags you under suspect with the new crime watch and are allowed to be attacked by the player involved and his corporation or fleet.

When you make the kill, then you receive the GCC.

I may be wrong about it, but go watch the Fanfest keynotes yourself, or at least listen to them in the background.


That was for LOW SEC, pretty sure in high sec pressing F1 brings Concord no matter what.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Doomheim
#267 - 2012-04-27 14:08:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigurd Sig Hansen
Daesul ShadoWind wrote:
I'm starting to wonder if any of you guys even watched the keynotes for fanfest.

From what I took from the keynotes about the new crimewatch.

If anything there going to make PVP easier in highsec by making crime watch KILL you only after you make the kill.
You can shoot, warp jam but this all Flags you under suspect with the new crime watch and are allowed to be attacked by the player involved and his corporation or fleet.

When you make the kill, then you receive the GCC.

I may be wrong about it, but go watch the Fanfest keynotes yourself, or at least listen to them in the background.


I was under the understanding it would make more PVP in highsec as well whereas something about you get a GCC than everyone can shoot you. PVPers should love that idea is what theyre ACTUALLY looking for are good fights and not baseball batting puppies (like they say that dont want)

I think Im making sense but if Im not, its the oxycodone. I had a large piece of bone removed from my forearm tuesday, sorry lol

Lharanai wrote:
oh my good (and I am agnostic), I can't believe I read that in full, must be the masochist in me.

some things the OP seems to have forgotten

1. EVE IS A GAME
2. Only a minority of all EVE players is on the forums
3. I am relatively sure, a majority of EVE players do not care about meta-gaming in EVE
4. EVE IS A GAME
5. Buuhuuu they are not playing as I want, these evil carebears
7. EVE IS A GAME YOU PLAY, and most people do it for fun not for DRAMA

stuff said, can't tell if I am angry about the nonsense of the OP, my stupidity to read and post on it or in general to care about things written in the forum.


the repeated bits are why I keep telling ppl they need to step back from the keyboard lest they do something truely stupid. D&D in the 60's or '70's type stupid. The reason religious groups hate all RPGs now type stupid

Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#268 - 2012-04-27 14:08:57 UTC
Image Nalelmir wrote:
It's not the Hi-Sec nerfs, it's the Hi-Sec nerfs COMBINED with the amount of money to be made in Hi-Sec. And that should be brought to CCP's attention. Loudly, aggressively, and repeatedly.


The "nerfs" you speak of only curtailed the excessive abuse of certain mechanics. Suicide ganking is slightly harder in that you have to actually plan your ganks. But it is still quite possible to solo-gank a Hulk in hisec with a destroyer. Use two destroyers if you're not 100% confident.

I believe you are correct on the economy side of things though: hisec activities offer far to high an income. People should be rewarded for taking the risk to live elsewhere. This is why reactions, reverse engineering and drug manufacturing can only happen outside high sec. This is why capital ships and super capital ships can only be manufactured outside high sec. This is why Arkonor, Bistot and Crokite can only be found outside hisec. This is why hisec PI is low yield and heavily taxed, while yield increases dramatically and taxes are imposed by players at their discretion outside hisec.

The best way to "punish" the care bear miners is to reduce the profitability of the hisec activities that they participate in the most. They will follow the profit, as the OP indicated. The removal of drone poo is the greatest shot in the arm CCP could ever have given to the mining profession. Now they just need to reverse the ore spawn boost from back in the Unholy Rage campaign and we'll be all set. Well, I'd like to see the further restriction of mid-range ores to low sec, but that's just me being a machiavellian BOFH.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#269 - 2012-04-27 14:09:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Vertisce Soritenshi
Vaju Enki wrote:
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Wow...what a waste of bits. Did you really spend that much time typing out an extremely long way of saying "I am butthurt that people aren't playing the game the way I want them to."? That is really sad.

I grow tired of the ignorance of so many people who claim to know what EVE is about when in reality, they have no clue. EVE isn't about PvP, Risk vs. Reward, or conflict. EVE is about the Sandbox. Period. People can do what they want, when they want for whatever reason they want. If you don't like the way someone is playing the game then **** you. Stop trying to force people to do what you want. That is Communism. Get over yourself.


It's not really a sandbox when ccp is constantly changing the rules to protect/shield carebears. It's not a sandbox AT ALL! It's a single player game.


The reality is this. carebears are like the Ebola Virus, they enter a game and it's all over.

For the last 15 years, they ****** up every single game... they always start playing games they don't like, and always, ALWAYS, try and change them, until the game fits their "carebear" needs. At that point, the game is dead.


Remember the epic mmo Ultima Online? They ruin it, all that was left was a hollow game, with fever and bleeding diathesis...

Then you clearly do not know what a "sandbox" is. A sandbox has walls. It is a box. Within the box there is sand of which you may do whatever you want. In other words you have rules to follow but within those rules you can do whatever you want. That is a sandbox. EVE is a sandbox game. Yes...the rules change but that does not change the fact that it is still a sandbox. There is nothing that has changed that doesn't make sense. You are just butthurt that you can't be a pirate as easily anymore. You were making ISK at no risk beyond what you already planned for at the expense of other players that are defenseless. Now that the rules are tweaked to make things harder for you, you want to complain. It is that simple.

The carebears aren't ruining anything. They are playing the game how they want in the relative "safety" of High Sec. They happen to make the wheels of EVE turn. Without them you would be paying a lot more for your throwaway ships that you gank them with. Then your piracy would be nowhere near as profitable and you would lose out. Those miners do more for this game than you do killing ships.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Sverige Pahis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#270 - 2012-04-27 14:10:57 UTC
Lharanai wrote:
oh my good (and I am agnostic), I can't believe I read that in full, must be the masochist in me.

some things the OP seems to have forgotten

1. EVE IS A GAME
2. Only a minority of all EVE players is on the forums
3. I am relatively sure, a majority of EVE players do not care about meta-gaming in EVE
4. EVE IS A GAME
5. Buuhuuu they are not playing as I want, these evil carebears
7. EVE IS A GAME YOU PLAY, and most people do it for fun not for DRAMA

stuff said, can't tell if I am angry about the nonsense of the OP, my stupidity to read and post on it or in general to care about things written in the forum.



You didn't really read it, did you.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#271 - 2012-04-27 14:12:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Mara Rinn wrote:
There's a lesson that many "PvPers" need to learn from dogs playing with their puppies. Watch the adults playing with the puppies some time: they'll have mock fights and tugs of war. You can participate if you learn how: you have to put up a fight, but only bring as much fight as a puppy can handle. You also need to back down sometimes to give the puppy the experience of "winning". When you play tug-of-war, you pull back (and make a big show of how hard you have to fight that little puppy) and give back. By playing with the puppy this way, you'll maintain the puppy's interest in keeping this activity up.


I'm just going to stop you right there.

My "one man wardec with a very very low SP alt" is EXACTLY this scenario, except rather than "playing" weak I am deliberately handicapping myself to bring myself to a manageable level for the opponent.

You then claim a dozen reasons why this isn't true and blah blah blah greifers.

They get council from carebear sages (such as yourself) to evade-evade-evade-decshield-dock-hide-dontfight-run!

Some will then smacktalk you along the lines of "lol you waste your ISK coming for us, decshields OP lol!!" and the like.

At which point, I will do absolutely everything to grind them down, because nothing is so pathetic as to run and taunt and think you can get away with it.

Quite literally, the reason carebears get griefed is because they're carebears. Their risk aversion and mewling (yes, they do mewl) attract predators by the dozens. I once wardecced a corp like this to find out they already had EIGHT wardecs against them. Why? Because when your only action is to try to run, flee and evade you wake up the predatory instinct in the aggressor. You are, absolutely, saying that "I am an easy victim."

Carebears don't get griefed because they mine, they get griefed because they are content with playing the punching bag.

If you really wanted to stop miners getting shat all over, you would do ANYTHING but tell them to run evasion tactics. Especially the ones that are borderline-exploits.

Quote:
What about the simpler rules like: when that guy flips your can, only the person who jettisoned that can is allowed to shoot back, but when that shot is fired, the flipper's entire corporation can shoot back at the shooter, but the victim's corp has to wait for the flipper's corp to start shooting before they can join the fight


You have it EXACTLY backwards.

When you flip a can, the can owners entire corp can stomp on the solo aggressor at will. When the flipper is shot, he can only return fire on those who shot him.

Sadly you don't even understand what you're talking about, so like most, you would rather err on the side of extreme caution and play the victim, forever making up reasons why that is the case.

The aggression rules mentioned above are explained in the wiki and are written on the warning popup when you steal from a can.

Even when the rules are stacked in your favor, you are still telling me reasons you can't do anything about it.

Astounding.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#272 - 2012-04-27 14:14:47 UTC
Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:

Remember the epic mmo Ultima Online? They ruin it, all that was left was a hollow game, with fever and bleeding diathesis...


funny I yahoo searched for it and its still "available now"
But then when did that game come out? Cause time has a tendancy to kill games too, not JUST carebear tears.



Learn to read?

Remember the epic mmo Ultima Online? They ruin it, all that was left was a hollow game, with fever and bleeding diathesis...

The Tears Must Flow
Lharanai
Fools of the Blue Oyster
#273 - 2012-04-27 14:14:51 UTC
@Sverige

I did, you know I am one of these person who actually read contracts, agreements and manuals (RTFM) in full...and now my head hurts :)

Seriously, don't take me serious, I MEAN IT...seriously
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#274 - 2012-04-27 14:19:00 UTC
sYnc Vir wrote:
That was for LOW SEC, pretty sure in high sec pressing F1 brings Concord no matter what.


In hisec it was "innocent" -> "suspect" -> "criminal". Where "innocent" means "shooting them brings CONCORD response", "suspect" means "you can shoot/repair them, but then you become a suspect", and "criminal" means, "please wait, your call is important to us, CONCORD will be along shortly to remind you not to do naughty things."

The more I think about it, the more I like CCP Greyscale's idea. I will see my psychiatrist in the morning to sort it out though.

But the idea is nice and simple: entirely broken and thoroughly exploitable, but at least it's broken in ways that are easy to understand. No more surprise visits from CONCORD when you haven't even had an aggression timer for 15 minutes.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Doomheim
#275 - 2012-04-27 14:20:35 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Image Nalelmir wrote:
It's not the Hi-Sec nerfs, it's the Hi-Sec nerfs COMBINED with the amount of money to be made in Hi-Sec. And that should be brought to CCP's attention. Loudly, aggressively, and repeatedly.


The "nerfs" you speak of only curtailed the excessive abuse of certain mechanics. Suicide ganking is slightly harder in that you have to actually plan your ganks. But it is still quite possible to solo-gank a Hulk in hisec with a destroyer. Use two destroyers if you're not 100% confident.

I believe you are correct on the economy side of things though: hisec activities offer far to high an income. People should be rewarded for taking the risk to live elsewhere. This is why reactions, reverse engineering and drug manufacturing can only happen outside high sec. This is why capital ships and super capital ships can only be manufactured outside high sec. This is why Arkonor, Bistot and Crokite can only be found outside hisec. This is why hisec PI is low yield and heavily taxed, while yield increases dramatically and taxes are imposed by players at their discretion outside hisec.

The best way to "punish" the care bear miners is to reduce the profitability of the hisec activities that they participate in the most. They will follow the profit, as the OP indicated. The removal of drone poo is the greatest shot in the arm CCP could ever have given to the mining profession. Now they just need to reverse the ore spawn boost from back in the Unholy Rage campaign and we'll be all set. Well, I'd like to see the further restriction of mid-range ores to low sec, but that's just me being a machiavellian BOFH.


what are the anti ganking nerfs that have been put into effect lately? The only real one I know of was the insurance thing but EVERY GANKER EVER says that wasnt imporant anyways
or thats what they kept saying after the change was made.

They made tier 3 BCs with battleship guns and no tank to speak of. They are in effect ganking role ships.

Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Ishukone Agent
Doomheim
#276 - 2012-04-27 14:21:03 UTC
To the OP: You need to get out more.

Get a girlfriend, raise a family, go for higher education, anything to put this game into perspective.
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Doomheim
#277 - 2012-04-27 14:22:12 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Wow...what a waste of bits. Did you really spend that much time typing out an extremely long way of saying "I am butthurt that people aren't playing the game the way I want them to."? That is really sad.

I grow tired of the ignorance of so many people who claim to know what EVE is about when in reality, they have no clue. EVE isn't about PvP, Risk vs. Reward, or conflict. EVE is about the Sandbox. Period. People can do what they want, when they want for whatever reason they want. If you don't like the way someone is playing the game then **** you. Stop trying to force people to do what you want. That is Communism. Get over yourself.


It's not really a sandbox when ccp is constantly changing the rules to protect/shield carebears. It's not a sandbox AT ALL! It's a single player game.


The reality is this. carebears are like the Ebola Virus, they enter a game and it's all over.

For the last 15 years, they ****** up every single game... they always start playing games they don't like, and always, ALWAYS, try and change them, until the game fits their "carebear" needs. At that point, the game is dead.


Remember the epic mmo Ultima Online? They ruin it, all that was left was a hollow game, with fever and bleeding diathesis...

Then you clearly do not know what a "sandbox" is. A sandbox has walls. It is a box. Within the box there is sand of which you may do whatever you want. In other words you have rules to follow but within those rules you can do whatever you want. That is a sandbox. EVE is a sandbox game. Yes...the rules change but that does not change the fact that it is still a sandbox. There is nothing that has changed that doesn't make sense. You are just butthurt that you can't be a pirate as easily anymore. You were making ISK at no risk beyond what you already planned for at the expense of other players that are defenseless. Now that the rules are tweaked to make things harder for you, you want to complain. It is that simple.

The carebears aren't ruining anything. They are playing the game how they want in the relative "safety" of High Sec. They happen to make the wheels of EVE turn. Without them you would be paying a lot more for your throwaway ships that you gank them with. Then your piracy would be nowhere near as profitable and you would lose out. Those miners do more for this game than you do killing ships.


Sandbox game: Minecraft.

Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Doomheim
#278 - 2012-04-27 14:23:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigurd Sig Hansen
Sverige Pahis wrote:
Lharanai wrote:
oh my good (and I am agnostic), I can't believe I read that in full, must be the masochist in me.

some things the OP seems to have forgotten

1. EVE IS A GAME
2. Only a minority of all EVE players is on the forums
3. I am relatively sure, a majority of EVE players do not care about meta-gaming in EVE
4. EVE IS A GAME
5. Buuhuuu they are not playing as I want, these evil carebears
7. EVE IS A GAME YOU PLAY, and most people do it for fun not for DRAMA

stuff said, can't tell if I am angry about the nonsense of the OP, my stupidity to read and post on it or in general to care about things written in the forum.



You didn't really read it, did you.


Is that post the collective work of the Hive? Cause it seems you guys have a serious crush on the OP otherwise

Vaju Enki wrote:
Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:

Remember the epic mmo Ultima Online? They ruin it, all that was left was a hollow game, with fever and bleeding diathesis...


funny I yahoo searched for it and its still "available now"
But then when did that game come out? Cause time has a tendancy to kill games too, not JUST carebear tears.



Learn to read?

Remember the epic mmo Ultima Online? They ruin it, all that was left was a hollow game, with fever and bleeding diathesis...


ah so YOU dont like it which means its ruined?
QQ moar

Really beginning to think to make this game work they need a second shard. Set up that shard as exactly like this one but without CONCORD
Leave this one the way it is.

Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
Kinooe
Perkone
Caldari State
#279 - 2012-04-27 14:37:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinooe
You are:

very smart,
very well spoken
and a genius on sociology


/Hemmo Paskiainen
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#280 - 2012-04-27 14:41:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Carebears don't get griefed because they mine, they get griefed because they are content with playing the punching bag.

If you really wanted to stop miners getting shat all over, you would do ANYTHING but tell them to run evasion tactics. Especially the ones that are borderline-exploits.

Aww come on now, CCP said it's perfectly fine.

Eagerly awaiting for suicide ganking to become a bannable exploit. <3 Which it might well be soon enough...

Clearly, you were only intended to nick their shields before CONCORD kills you, this "alpha" thing was completely unintended.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?