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Officer lasers vs T2
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Salara Vayn
Eve Engineering Finance
#1 - 2012-04-26 11:50:00 UTC
Hey everyone, I've been running L4 missions for a while now and completed a couple of Epic Arcs and thus far I've found my ship to be a really good fit, it tanks well and provides sufficient DPS against opponents weak to Em and Therm however some missions against Guristas for example, it can take a long time to kill a BS due to their resists.

My current fit is:

Hull: Imperial Navy Apocalypse

[High Slots]
8 x Mega Pulse Laser II /w Scorch L for long range and Imp Navy Multifrequency for close-up and when more damage is required.

[Med Slots]
3 x Cap Recharger II
1 x 100MN MWD so I can get close enough for missions when I'm hit by multiple frigs with tracking disruption if my drones aren't dealing with them fast enough

[Low Slots]
2 x Imp Navy Heatsink
2 x Large Armor Repairer II
1 x EANM II
2 x Energized Armor Hardeners (specific to the mission, 3 of these are T2 except for the Kinetic which is Imp Navy)
1 x Capacitor Power Relay

[Rigs]
2 x Capacitor Control Circuit I
1 x Can't remember the name, it boosts the effectiveness of Armor Reppers

I have been looking at Officer lasers in order to produce enough DPS to more easily handle missions with high EM/Therm resists however the forums thus far have produced mixed results, some people claims T2 pulse and T2 ammo is better due to the specialized skill bonuses for T2s as well as the T2 ammo when using scorch whereas some people reckon the overkill damage multiplier of the officer lasers accounts for the inability to use T2 ammo and the absense of the skill bonuses.

Also some people reckon the Beams are way better than the Pulse so you should be using Tachyons.

Can anyone who's tried both officer and T2 confirm if upgrading to officer's lasers actually produces more DPS or would I be better off just fitting officer heatinks to replace the imp navy ones I'm currently using?

I realise that using missile launchers would allow me to use Kin/Exp damage for those missions with high resists but I don't have the skills for that yet, especially not the T2 launchers and ammo.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2012-04-26 12:35:09 UTC
Officer guns do more dps than T2 guns with the same ammo loaded.

For pulses you'll lose conflag (not that bad) and scorch. Your damage at range will thus be far lower with officer guns.

For tachs, you lose damage at sniper range which you rarely use in missions and you gain damage with multifreqs. In this case the officer guns are an improvement.
Nemo deBlanc
Resource Acquisition Unlimited
#3 - 2012-04-26 12:43:46 UTC
Upgrading to a Paladin or Nightmare really would be a better choice isk-wise. Officer mods on mission boats=asking to get suicide ganked.

Putting that aside, I agree with lunk. If you're using pulses, you just can't afford to give up the T2 ammo. Scorch is a *big* deal, and conflag is actually nice as well if you can use it effectively. Faction tachs are I suppose "better" dps-wise, but the cost makes them resoundingly meh in my eyes. If you're looking to burn large amounts of isk, I suggest you do it by upgrading your hull and implants first.
Salara Vayn
Eve Engineering Finance
#4 - 2012-04-26 13:00:40 UTC
Ok thanks for the feedback guys, that's pretty much confirmed what I thought.

As for upgrading to a Paladin or a Nightmare, I had looked at a Paladin previously however I was told the legion is better, would you agree with that statement? If not, can you tell me which areas, it is better and which it is worse?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#5 - 2012-04-26 13:36:50 UTC
For level 4 missions it's pretty difficult for any laserboat to beat a Tachyon-fit Nightmare for raw damage projection. I can't see the Legion having the DPS or the range to compete with it. Legions are, I'm told, good for certain Incursion sites.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#6 - 2012-04-26 13:40:56 UTC
I think your first improvement would be to add a 3rd Faction Heatsink. You don't need 2x LAR IIs on a mission boat if you have decent skills.

The Paladin is awesome. It beats the Legion out in terms of damage application at the appropriate ranges for missions. The Legion was better in pre-nerf Incursions, but the Paladin wipes the floor with it in missions. Each of the 4 accounts I have trained for BS class ships has a Paladin. The Paladin's one shortcoming is that it cannot fit an LAR, 4x Tachyon IIs, and a prop mod. If I fit a prop mod, I switch to Mega Beams or Mega Pulse lasers, but my standard fit is as follows:


[Paladin, Paladin (Tachyon)]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager I
Salvager I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Arcosian
Arcosian Heavy Industries Corp Holding
#7 - 2012-04-26 13:52:49 UTC
The legion comes nowhere close to what a Paladin/NM can do. The main reason is weapon range and DPS. Heavy beams will only reach out to about 30km and pulses with scorch are 40km with the DPS around 450-500. I guess you could say the range doesn't really matter since you can fit a afterburner and fly around at 550m/s but with the Paladin/NM you can get almost 1000DPS up to 50km with INMF and tachs and switching to INxray you get 800DPS to 70km. You won't find many missions where the rats are farther than 70km out so half the time you won't even move from the warp in spot unless you have to travel to gates.

If you are a laser boat pilot eventually you will want to get into a Paladin/NM since they are the "top" mission ships for Amarr. I think the main reason you are having with getting enough DPS is in the OP "however some missions against Guristas for example, it can take a long time to kill a BS due to their resists." If you fly Amarr you don't want to fly against Guristas or Angels and I would advise training into a Tengu and use that for the Guristas/Angel missions. Also moving to Amarr space will make Guristas/Angel missions uncommon but a Tengu-Paladin/NM combo will finish any L4 with ease. The only "bad" one is L4 Sansha Blockade with 6-8 perma-tracking disruption elite cruisers.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-04-26 13:55:37 UTC
With the range bonus of the Apoc, is scorch really needed at BS lvl 5?

but.. I second tachyons for lvl4s
pop the frigs at range, or let the drones deal with them. On my NM I split my tachs into two groups, because one group will usually instapop a frigate.
Arcosian
Arcosian Heavy Industries Corp Holding
#9 - 2012-04-26 14:03:35 UTC
I guess I could post some fits as well:


[Paladin, Paladin (Tachy) ]
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Corpus A-Type Large Armor Repairer
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager I

Large Nanobot Accelerator I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

_______________________________________________________
I only use this for the mission with the 50km between gates.

[Paladin, Maxed Paladin (Tachy) Prop mod]
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Corpus A-Type Large Armor Repairer
Power Diagnostic System II
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Cap Recharger II
100MN Afterburner II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager I

Large Nanobot Accelerator I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
__________________________________________________
[Nightmare, Nightmare T2 Tachs w/ burner]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Tracking Enhancer II

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Pith A-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Photon Scattering Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed
100MN Afterburner II

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
[empty high slot]
Drone Link Augmentor I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
______________________________________________________
[Nightmare, PWNmobile]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Tracking Enhancer II

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Pith A-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Photon Scattering Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II

Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5

Implants for all fits:
PG8
AX-2
CC8
CX-2
Lancer G2 Epsilon

They all get 1000DPS and make L4s into "easy" mode Pirate
Salara Vayn
Eve Engineering Finance
#10 - 2012-04-26 14:13:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Salara Vayn
Thanks for clearing the ship business up folks, I'm guessing by the Pro-Nightmare statements that it's massively better than a Paladin. My only issue with the Nightmare is judging by those fits you just posted, it looks like it's meant for shield tanking and all my tank skills are in armor tanking so I'd have to train for that from scratch on top of whatever it'll take to get to fly the nightmare. I know it's gonna take around 58 days of training if I trained to fly the Paladin.

Oh, as for what I said about Guristas, I am mostly mission running in Amarr space so Guristas missions are few but I do get them now and then (and decline them) however I'm also trying to run all the Epic Arcs in order to balance my standing across the main 4 factions in order to fix the high broker taxes I incur in inter-regional trading, it is these that cause my main issues with the EM/Therm resistances.
Arcosian
Arcosian Heavy Industries Corp Holding
#11 - 2012-04-26 14:31:51 UTC
Well the NM is not massively better than the paladin. It has better a lot better tracking but in most missions the rats start/orbit 50+km away so tracking really isn't an issue. And most of the time you can 1-shot anything that would orbit closer way before it gets close. Half the time it takes me 3-4 volleys to pop the BS and anything less is 1-2 shots.

The nightmare is meant for shield tanking and is a little more picky on cap use since it is a caldari/amarr ship. And the Paladin will require Amarr BS 5 and marauders 4 but the first paladin fit I posted is cap stable at 55% without the repper running. If you don't have a Tengu then training for a Nightmare will be like training for both ships at once since you don't have shield skills. Either way you should mission in Amarr space since these ships really shine against bloods/sansha/drones/mercs and regardless of which you choose you can't make a bad choice as they are both the best Amarr mission ships.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#12 - 2012-04-26 15:55:03 UTC
Salara Vayn wrote:
Thanks for clearing the ship business up folks, I'm guessing by the Pro-Nightmare statements that it's massively better than a Paladin. My only issue with the Nightmare is judging by those fits you just posted, it looks like it's meant for shield tanking and all my tank skills are in armor tanking so I'd have to train for that from scratch on top of whatever it'll take to get to fly the nightmare. I know it's gonna take around 58 days of training if I trained to fly the Paladin.


Active shield tanking doesn't require many skills at all (you can more or less skip the comp skills until you know you need them as invulns are active). The Nightmare also doesn't require AWU 5 or EGU 5. Furthermore, the Paladin's damage bonus is linked to the rank 10 Marauders skill itself, while the Nightmare gets damage from Caldari Battleship (rank 8), so even that is a shorter train.

Just some things to consider.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-04-26 19:15:32 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Active shield tanking doesn't require many skills at all (you can more or less skip the comp skills until you know you need them as invulns are active). The Nightmare also doesn't require AWU 5 or EGU 5. Furthermore, the Paladin's damage bonus is linked to the rank 10 Marauders skill itself, while the Nightmare gets damage from Caldari Battleship (rank 8), so even that is a shorter train.

Just some things to consider.

this. also, i remember just a few weeks ago a guy was crying in this very forum because he could not deal with sansha blockade 4. the TD from some of the cruisers reduced his paladin's tracking to titan levels and he had to wait till his drones had chewed up a few.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Mastin Dragonfly
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2012-04-26 20:15:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly
FT Diomedes wrote:
The Paladin's one shortcoming is that it cannot fit an LAR, 4x Tachyon IIs, and a prop mod. If I fit a prop mod, I switch to Mega Beams or Mega Pulse lasers, but my standard fit is as follows:




A C-Type Large Armor Repairer and a Core X-Type 100MN can be fitted with 4 tachyons if you use a +5% grid implant.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-04-26 20:17:51 UTC
The NM is 'best' in you just want to run missions vs. Sansha/Blood Raiders. If you also intend to loot and/or salvage, the Paladin will be faster.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#16 - 2012-04-27 05:16:09 UTC
Mastin Dragonfly wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
The Paladin's one shortcoming is that it cannot fit an LAR, 4x Tachyon IIs, and a prop mod. If I fit a prop mod, I switch to Mega Beams or Mega Pulse lasers, but my standard fit is as follows:




A C-Type Large Armor Repairer and a Core X-Type 100MN can be fitted with 4 tachyons if you use a +5% grid implant.


Yes, this is true. I already have other 5% implants installed in that slot. I could also just replace the Damage Control with a PDS. It's probably good that the Paladin doesn't have that extra 5% base powergrid. I already own four of them and think it's an amazing ship.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Salara Vayn
Eve Engineering Finance
#17 - 2012-04-27 16:35:04 UTC
Well, it sounds like although the nightmare does have more DPS, it has a few shortcomings too. I think I'll start with the Paladin, at least I won't have to switch from armor tanking and see if I need to upgrade from the Paladin in time.

As for what I was saying earlier about running Epic Arcs and the like, I guess at some point, I'll have to start training missile launchers so I can use kinetic and explosive ammo, assuming there is a part-Amarr based pirate ship or something designed to be a missile boat that's capable of running level 4s.