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Possibly too far with balancing Incursions?

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Author
Myz Toyou
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#221 - 2012-04-27 12:46:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Myz Toyou
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Apolyon I wrote:


all you need is random connection open into you. not only wh corp like to kill farming caps, even NC kill them too.

stop being clueless, would you??


As you said "random connection"

People actually have to work to find you in the first place... and my point was it's a lot more work for someone to find a C5 fleet farming than it is for griefers to find the nearest hi-sec incursion... to which you've not given any argument

Gonzo TheGreat wrote:


You can get incoming wormholes from other people opening their statics or wormholes.



yes, and what's the probability on that... I remembered watching a Clarion call video where they did the math on finding a specific C6 system. Now if I remember right the math worked out at something like a 0.9% chance of finding the specific C6, now since there are more C5's than C6's I'd assume that number is a lot lower.

So the probability of someone finding your C5 is a lot lower than finding a hi-sec incursion fleet to grief isn't it? and the multi billion ships in the hi-sec incursion are just as expensive as your C5 fleet if not more in some cases. Especially if you were to hit a mach/nightmare fleet in the second wave of an OTA, use a couple of T1 caldari frigs (think the Heron gets the bonus to ECM) to suicide jam out their logi for a couple of cycles. And bam, you'll have a few juicy losses. to loot and steal from.

Like I said before... if the C5's are not worth doing because you're constantly being attacked. why are you doing them???

It makes no sense unless there is profit.

But still, if they made the Sleeper sites as hard as incursion NPC's and doubled the length of completion in some cases and reduced the amount of isk you were likely to make doing them, would you be happy to just sit back and make a lot less than you used to?



So, when WHing is so risk free why dont you and your Incursion whine buddies grow a pair and move there ?
xVx dreadnaught
Space Telentics Systems Inc
#222 - 2012-04-27 13:01:05 UTC  |  Edited by: xVx dreadnaught
Myz Toyou wrote:


So, when WHing is so risk free why dont you and your Incursion whine buddies grow a pair and move there ?



Actually for the last few months I've pretty much lived in W-Space, doing PVP and sleepers. I have even attacked people inside C3 and C4 sites... So I know it is possible to hunt people down inside the wormholes, I also know just how difficult it is to do it effectively.

I came back to the incursion community because I got word of these changes coming a while back. Started getting back into the flow just before the patch so I would have a more objective point of view when it came to the changes.

The incursion change doesn't effect me all that much because I am at least set up to do Sleeper sites or missions to replace the isk drop from incursions. My comments are on the effect I feel it will have on the community as a whole.
Myz Toyou
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#223 - 2012-04-27 13:09:02 UTC
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Myz Toyou wrote:


So, when WHing is so risk free why dont you and your Incursion whine buddies grow a pair and move there ?



Actually for the last few months I've pretty much lived in W-Space, doing PVP and sleepers.



Thats good to hear but sadly 90% of the Incursion runners ( special the ones who were new to EVE when Incursions hit the server ) are now after the last month of safety and wealth so blinded that they probably never gonna venture into space were no CONCORD saves their sore butts.
Nemo deBlanc
Resource Acquisition Unlimited
#224 - 2012-04-27 13:15:08 UTC
xVx dreadnaught wrote:

Actually for the last few months I've pretty much lived in W-Space, doing PVP and sleepers. I have even attacked people inside C3 and C4 sites... So I know it is possible to hunt people down inside the wormholes, I also know just how difficult it is to do it effectively.


I'm genuinely curious. What's so difficult about ganking people in C3/C4's? All you really need is heavy cloakie tackle, usually neuts, and sometimes a guy that actually knows how to probe. I feel incredibly vulnerable when running sites, because I know that without alts watching all the wh's, there's a very real chance somebody is going to get in there without me knowing and cloak up. At which point I'm already dead. Killed enough people now that I've seen firsthand just how easy it is.
xVx dreadnaught
Space Telentics Systems Inc
#225 - 2012-04-27 13:26:01 UTC
Nemo deBlanc wrote:
xVx dreadnaught wrote:

Actually for the last few months I've pretty much lived in W-Space, doing PVP and sleepers. I have even attacked people inside C3 and C4 sites... So I know it is possible to hunt people down inside the wormholes, I also know just how difficult it is to do it effectively.


I'm genuinely curious. What's so difficult about ganking people in C3/C4's? All you really need is heavy cloakie tackle, usually neuts, and sometimes a guy that actually knows how to probe. I feel incredibly vulnerable when running sites, because I know that without alts watching all the wh's, there's a very real chance somebody is going to get in there without me knowing and cloak up. At which point I'm already dead. Killed enough people now that I've seen firsthand just how easy it is.


Well C4's tend to have a small group... most common I've seen are tengu's doing remote logi.

The last kill we got was 2 Domi's that were equipped for remote log and neuts, If I was solo I'd have probably not have managed it. But we had enough neuts and DPS to take them down.

I was actually in an Interdictor... got both pods Cool
Nemo deBlanc
Resource Acquisition Unlimited
#226 - 2012-04-27 14:03:47 UTC
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Nemo deBlanc wrote:
xVx dreadnaught wrote:

Actually for the last few months I've pretty much lived in W-Space, doing PVP and sleepers. I have even attacked people inside C3 and C4 sites... So I know it is possible to hunt people down inside the wormholes, I also know just how difficult it is to do it effectively.


I'm genuinely curious. What's so difficult about ganking people in C3/C4's? All you really need is heavy cloakie tackle, usually neuts, and sometimes a guy that actually knows how to probe. I feel incredibly vulnerable when running sites, because I know that without alts watching all the wh's, there's a very real chance somebody is going to get in there without me knowing and cloak up. At which point I'm already dead. Killed enough people now that I've seen firsthand just how easy it is.


Well C4's tend to have a small group... most common I've seen are tengu's doing remote logi.

The last kill we got was 2 Domi's that were equipped for remote log and neuts, If I was solo I'd have probably not have managed it. But we had enough neuts and DPS to take them down.

I was actually in an Interdictor... got both pods Cool


ECM is pretty win in scenarios like the 2 domi's, then just some cane's for neut+dps, or drakes I suppose if it's neut domi's you're brawling. RR Tengu I consider neuts to be best, since dissolution gives them really high sensor strength, making ECM less substantial. Canes absolutely wreck these fits, dual medium neuts=ouch. Depending how many Tengu's, you might want a logi or two. RR Tengu's basically never have a prop mod, so they're pretty much sitting ducks.

Those are the cheap approaches anyways. T3's blobs are popular if you've got the isk, cloakie proteus highly recommended for initial tackle.

There could be better approaches, but that's what I've seen to work best. PvE ships really do die easily. Even if they're a billion isk. Lol

Here's the C3 Tengu fit I consider best for example:

[Tengu, 6 Launcher Large Rep]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Trauma Fury Heavy Missile
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Tengu Defensive - Adaptive Shielding
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers

<30k ehp, no prop mod, not even cap stable. You catch these things, they're going to die horribly. It's just about making enough isk that you can shrug off the loss. P As a random side note, while this Tengu is what I consider the "optimal fit" for C3's, most people run somewhat more tanked fits. The Tengu really isn't that great of a sleeper killing ship in all honesty. There's MUCH better choices.
Caldari Citizen 786478786
#227 - 2012-04-27 14:17:00 UTC
Nemo deBlanc wrote:
The Tengu really isn't that great of a sleeper killing ship in all honesty. There's MUCH better choices.


Bwahahaha! Dumbass. There's no better sleeper killing ship. Though, what does this have to do with Incursions? Can we get back onto the topic of Incursion bears whining? Their tears are ridiculous AND delicious.
Nemo deBlanc
Resource Acquisition Unlimited
#228 - 2012-04-27 14:18:44 UTC
Caldari Citizen 786478786 wrote:
Nemo deBlanc wrote:
The Tengu really isn't that great of a sleeper killing ship in all honesty. There's MUCH better choices.


Bwahahaha! Dumbass.


Right back 'atcha. Blink

But yes, this was a thread about incursion bear tears. Probably best we stop derailing it.
Zelota
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#229 - 2012-04-27 15:15:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Zelota
Nemo deBlanc wrote:
Caldari Citizen 786478786 wrote:
Nemo deBlanc wrote:
The Tengu really isn't that great of a sleeper killing ship in all honesty. There's MUCH better choices.


Bwahahaha! Dumbass.


Right back 'atcha. Blink

But yes, this was a thread about incursion bear tears. Probably best we stop derailing it.


incurtion bear's? I run incurtions. Am i a bear?
What is it you do in this game? If you are not some ones alt. Then what the hell is up with your chest beating? To me you have 90 life time kills.... What is it you do in eve?
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#230 - 2012-04-27 17:18:01 UTC
Zelota wrote:
Nemo deBlanc wrote:
Caldari Citizen 786478786 wrote:
Nemo deBlanc wrote:
The Tengu really isn't that great of a sleeper killing ship in all honesty. There's MUCH better choices.


Bwahahaha! Dumbass.


Right back 'atcha. Blink

But yes, this was a thread about incursion bear tears. Probably best we stop derailing it.


incurtion bear's? I run incurtions. Am i a bear?
What is it you do in this game? If you are not some ones alt. Then what the hell is up with your chest beating? To me you have 90 life time kills.... What is it you do in eve?

did you buy this toon???

kill nothing for 2 years, I'm pretty sure you're bears
xVx dreadnaught
Space Telentics Systems Inc
#231 - 2012-04-27 18:27:02 UTC
What is it with the "bears" branding...

If you're not a hi-sec bear, you're a null-sec bear or a faction warbear, a wormhole-bear or some other form of bear, unless you are a constant PVP'er... in which most of them have alts that do their carebearing for them.

This isn't a bear off, This thread is supposed to be looking at the changes made by CCP and trying to see if they are the correct changes needed.

Personally I'd like to see the same "Escalations" (see what I did there CCP, I even commented on your up coming expansion) That we see with every other aspect of eve,

Someone mines in hi-sec they can get certain roids... better roids in low-sec but more risk and effort to get them, they get even better in WH's and Null but that's even riskier... but the pay off is there for those willing to take the risk.

Missions, level 1's are easy but provide no real income for a player, so they upgrade to 2, 3 and then 4... some even go to lvl 5 and do the faction missions for a bigger reward. At a bigger risk.

Then we have wormholes, the C1 are easiest to do but don't pay the same as C4's C5's or C6's People upgrade to the bigger sites for better payout at more risk.

I could go on and on, about DED and exploration sites. But you get what I mean.

Why is it incursions are the only set up in eve, where one of the lowest entry level activities is the highest income?

The bigger sites pay more, but only barely and it takes so much longer to complete.

I wouldn't mind the Vanguard sites only being able to make 60-70 mill an hour, as long as Assaults were capable of making 120-140 mill an hour and Headquarter sites able to make 240-250mill an hour. Because the sites are much bigger, with much more things to do, more effort, more people needed, more organization, more danger... more risk... but no more reward than doing Vanguards...

CCP, can you see why Everyone wants to do Vanguards instead of Assaults and Headquarters... I know the last few days you've possibly seen more people doing these sites than any other time. But mostly this is because people are still experimenting to see which will be best for them. At the end of the day once everyone has gotten past the nerf and all they will all go back to VG's because that is the default setting for most of them.
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#232 - 2012-04-27 18:39:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Apolyon I
xVx dreadnaught wrote:

.

first reasonable post, I ran VG before while looking for a wh corp.

60-70m/hr seem a reasonable payout for HS VG but for AS and HQ, haven't ran them so I dont know much

I guess it would take much more effort but remember, it's still HS. the payout you propose for AS and HQ will once again make incursion the safest/best isk-wise pve activity and make all other form of pve obsolete even C5,C6.
xVx dreadnaught
Space Telentics Systems Inc
#233 - 2012-04-27 19:00:01 UTC
Apolyon I wrote:
xVx dreadnaught wrote:

.

first reasonable post, I ran VG before while looking for a wh corp.

60-70m/hr seem a reasonable payout for HS VG but for AS and HQ, haven't ran them so I dont know much

I guess it would take much more effort but remember, it's still HS. the payout you propose for AS and HQ will once again make incursion the safest/best isk-wise pve activity and make all other form of pve obsolete even C5,C6.



Well ASS take about 20-30 mins and 20 people depending on site, and HQ take 50-60 mins and 40 people depending on the site.

Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#234 - 2012-04-27 19:16:20 UTC
We're not talking about numbers here, we're talking about pvp risk.

It could even take 100 people to kill a sansha titan, they'd still be against a scripted entity and safe from other players.

That's why HS incursions should not pay more than WHs or Null sec stuff.

Templar Nato
#235 - 2012-04-27 19:36:48 UTC
Apolyon I wrote:
60-70m/hr seem a reasonable payout for HS VG


I finally agree with you.

My issue has been that HS VG has been nerfed far more than this.
xVx dreadnaught
Space Telentics Systems Inc
#236 - 2012-04-27 19:44:44 UTC  |  Edited by: xVx dreadnaught
Just Alter wrote:
We're not talking about numbers here, we're talking about pvp risk.

It could even take 100 people to kill a sansha titan, they'd still be against a scripted entity and safe from other players.

That's why HS incursions should not pay more than WHs or Null sec stuff.



They are not exactly predictable... they have random spawns, they neut, scram, web, target paint, do insane amounts of DPS, they have logi's... Not to mention... you are still at PVP risk... for anyone can come into the pocket you're in... and suicide jam out the logi's with a couple of Blackbirds with cheap fits. Your fleet not having logistic support will lose ships fast. they have alts loot your wrecks and run off.

We have blacklists with hundreds of names and incidents just like explained... and more inventive ganks on incursion community members where people have been PVP'd in incursions and lost billions of isk.

so please, don't say there's "no pvp risk" it's getting old. Some corps and alliances have made a fortune off of ganking incursion runners. Including Skunkworks and Moar tears.
Zelota
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#237 - 2012-04-27 19:57:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Zelota
Apolyon I wrote:
Zelota wrote:
Nemo deBlanc wrote:
Caldari Citizen 786478786 wrote:
Nemo deBlanc wrote:
The Tengu really isn't that great of a sleeper killing ship in all honesty. There's MUCH better choices.


Bwahahaha! Dumbass.


Right back 'atcha. Blink

But yes, this was a thread about incursion bear tears. Probably best we stop derailing it.


incurtion bear's? I run incurtions. Am i a bear?
What is it you do in this game? If you are not some ones alt. Then what the hell is up with your chest beating? To me you have 90 life time kills.... What is it you do in eve?

did you buy this toon???

kill nothing for 2 years, I'm pretty sure you're bears


No i quit the game for almost 2 years cause i lost all faith in it. Incurtions came around and i started playing again.
If you do not think that i am the orginal one. Here are is a link to my videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_YF4Yzuvoc this is from the time when eve had dive bombing ravens. Something i bet you do not know any thing about
Zita Devon
Z.Devon Trade Industry.
#238 - 2012-04-27 20:02:00 UTC
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Just Alter wrote:
We're not talking about numbers here, we're talking about pvp risk.

It could even take 100 people to kill a sansha titan, they'd still be against a scripted entity and safe from other players.

That's why HS incursions should not pay more than WHs or Null sec stuff.



They are not exactly predictable... they have random spawns, they neut, scram, web, target paint, do insane amounts of DPS, they have logi's... Not to mention... you are still at PVP risk... for anyone can come into the pocket you're in... and suicide jam out the logi's with a couple of Blackbirds with cheap fits. Your fleet not having logistic support will lose ships fast. they have alts loot your wrecks and run off.

We have blacklists with hundreds of names and incidents just like explained... and more inventive ganks on incursion community members where people have been PVP'd in incursions and lost billions of isk.

so please, don't say there's "no pvp risk" it's getting old. Some corps and alliances have made a fortune off of ganking incursion runners. Including Skunkworks and Moar tears.





I think ppl sould remember that the only reson incurtion's have been able to fly "risk" free like you say, is due to the reson of the hard work from TDF and BTL both armor and shield comunities.... creating list of ppl who dosn't like to fly this missions and would rather greff your fleet and kill your logi's.

EVERY single day this BLACK list grow... more and more ppl are getting blocked out of the knowen comunities. becure we protect us self from this " un needed " losses.
Jazest
Ferox Inc
#239 - 2012-04-27 20:13:48 UTC
CCP, you did a great job in balancing the incursions. The payouts are in line with assaults and hq payouts, the blitz fleets are no more (for the moment, tho I am sure they will be back in a week or two) and on top of it all, you present us with a new challenge to overcome. Great job once again! Keep up the good work!
Zelota
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#240 - 2012-04-27 20:15:35 UTC
Jazest wrote:
CCP, you did a great job in balancing the incursions. The payouts are in line with assaults and hq payouts, the blitz fleets are no more (for the moment, tho I am sure they will be back in a week or two) and on top of it all, you present us with a new challenge to overcome. Great job once again! Keep up the good work!


what about all the people that could not afford a shiny ship?