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Active Skill Training Bonus (yay or nay)
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Richecks Ecks
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-04-24 13:45:30 UTC
What if there was a skill (active learning) or something that was to give a slight boost for your current train?
i.e.- youre training mining. if mining, you get a -2%, -4%, -6% train time if actively using the skill.
- using tungston hybrid ammo or any long range ammo while training sharpshooter?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#2 - 2012-04-24 13:50:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
No. No grinding for skills.

This /keeps/ being brought up.

It's not a new idea. It's not novel.

And there are a great many of us that don't want it.

Oh, and there's a features and ideas discussion forum you should be using for this,

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Whitehound
#3 - 2012-04-24 13:59:36 UTC
While I like the idea of supporting people's skill decisions with additional mechanics do I wonder if we really need training wheels? Hehe, nice word actually, training wheels.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#4 - 2012-04-24 14:01:45 UTC
It's been tried. It failed. It only promotes silly behaviour and distracts people from actually playing the game.

It's also pretty much impossible to make it universally applicable, and it doesn't really solve any kind of problem.
Ank Parkor
WildSpace Otters
#5 - 2012-04-24 14:05:28 UTC
What belongs to Elder Scrolls must remain at Elder Scrolls.

[u]Short time trader, short term missionner, long term ambitions.[/u]

Bring justice to EVE: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1171333
Dr Caymus
Applied Technologies Inc
Agents of Fortune
#6 - 2012-04-24 14:35:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Caymus
This thread reminds me of the movie "Groundhog Day"


Dr Caymus
-=ATI=-
stoicfaux
#7 - 2012-04-24 14:50:58 UTC
Richecks Ecks wrote:
What if there was a skill (active learning) or something that was to give a slight boost for your current train?
i.e.- youre training mining. if mining, you get a -2%, -4%, -6% train time if actively using the skill.
- using tungston hybrid ammo or any long range ammo while training sharpshooter?

Mental image: battleship + cargo expanders + hold full of ammo + one small gun in high + perma-tanked small shield booster shooting at and being shot by a corpmate with a similar setup for 23/7. (Obviously, you would use ammo-less lasers to train up the sharpshooting skill, this is just a hypothetical.)

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Elsbeth Taron
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-04-24 14:56:22 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Richecks Ecks wrote:
What if there was a skill (active learning) or something that was to give a slight boost for your current train?
i.e.- youre training mining. if mining, you get a -2%, -4%, -6% train time if actively using the skill.
- using tungston hybrid ammo or any long range ammo while training sharpshooter?

Mental image: battleship + cargo expanders + hold full of ammo + one small gun in high + perma-tanked small shield booster shooting at and being shot by a corpmate with a similar setup for 23/7. (Obviously, you would use ammo-less lasers to train up the sharpshooting skill, this is just a hypothetical.)



Another mental image. CCP has a programming team that can stop shooting at corp mates from affecting training times. Now continue ...
Luba Cibre
Global Song Setup
#9 - 2012-04-24 15:01:43 UTC
Elsbeth Taron wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Richecks Ecks wrote:
What if there was a skill (active learning) or something that was to give a slight boost for your current train?
i.e.- youre training mining. if mining, you get a -2%, -4%, -6% train time if actively using the skill.
- using tungston hybrid ammo or any long range ammo while training sharpshooter?

Mental image: battleship + cargo expanders + hold full of ammo + one small gun in high + perma-tanked small shield booster shooting at and being shot by a corpmate with a similar setup for 23/7. (Obviously, you would use ammo-less lasers to train up the sharpshooting skill, this is just a hypothetical.)



Another mental image. CCP has a programming team that can stop shooting at corp mates from affecting training times. Now continue ...

Another mental image. Out of corp alt.
Now continue ...

"Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise." 
stoicfaux
#10 - 2012-04-24 15:04:04 UTC
Elsbeth Taron wrote:
Another mental image. CCP has a programming team that can stop shooting at corp mates from affecting training times. Now continue ...

Create alt, have alt destroy your rookie ship, get kill rights on alt, now shoot alt for 30days (or for a week or two if using a trial alt.) Faction Warfare alt should work as well.

Drop corp. War dec or go to low-sec or null-sec to shoot each other.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Adam Dinkleberg
Perkone
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-04-24 15:50:58 UTC
nay.
Blackmerk
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-04-24 16:53:21 UTC
Idea Okay what about Combined skills you can train. IE
Shield operation + Shield management + 1 advanced research manual =shield operational management.
If the first word of the skill matches it can be combined once to create a Tech 2 skill and save 5% or 10% on training time over the combined skills. Also the skill to combine skills can be trained and those books sold on contract by Science bears who can afford to buy such a rare skill book that allows them to combine skills in station.

Remember you heard it here first!
stoicfaux
#13 - 2012-04-24 17:18:34 UTC
Blackmerk wrote:
Idea Okay what about Combined skills you can train. IE
Shield operation + Shield management + 1 advanced research manual =shield operational management.
If the first word of the skill matches it can be combined once to create a Tech 2 skill and save 5% or 10% on training time over the combined skills. Also the skill to combine skills can be trained and those books sold on contract by Science bears who can afford to buy such a rare skill book that allows them to combine skills in station.

Remember you heard it here first!

Previously, there were the Learning skills ( http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Skills_guide#Historical_note:_Learning_skills ) which increased the rate at which you trained by increasing your attributes. The learning skills were removed and everyone's stats were bumped by 12 points (which represented five(?) or so million skill points in Learning.)

The Learning skills were removed because they weren't fun, and combined with the newbie accelerated training bonus, were creating a bad new user experience (the most optimal thing for a newbie to do for their first month while flying around in a basic frigate was to train the passive learning skills, instead of training active skills related to flying, fighting, mining or trading.)

What makes you think a new (rehashed) skill training paradigm that forces/encourages/min-maxes/obligates people to learn skills in a fixed order is a good idea, considering that the Learning skills were removed because people, felt forced/encouraged/min-max/obligated to train skills in a particular order?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux
#14 - 2012-04-24 21:31:19 UTC
Aha! Here's the old optimal training plan to maximize your learning rate: http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=242786

Quote:

1. Cybernetics 1
2. Plug in +3 Implants: Memory Augmentation - Basic & Cybernetic Subprocessor - Basic
3. Instant Recall 1
4. Analytical Mind 1
5. Learning 1
6. Instant Recall 2
7. Analytical Mind 2
8. Learning 2
9. Instant Recall 3
10. Analytical Mind 3
11. Learning 3
12. Instant Recall 4
13. Eidetic Memory 1
14. Eidetic Memory 2
15. Eidetic Memory 3
16. Analytical Mind 4
17. Logic 1
18. Logic 2
19. Logic 3
20. Learning 4
21. Cybernetics 2
22. Cybernetics 3
23. Cybernetics 4
24. Plug in +4 Implants: Memory Augmentation - Standard & Cybernetic Subprocessor - Standard
25. Eidetic Memory 4
26. Logic 4
27. Instant Recall 5
28. Analytical Mind 5
29. Learning 5
30. Cybernetics 5
31. Plug in all five +5 "Improved" Implants
32. Eidetic Memory 5
33. Logic 5
34. Iron Will 1*
35. Spatial Awareness 1*
36. Empathy 1*
37. Iron Will 2*
38. Spatial Awareness 2*
39. Empathy 2*
40. Iron Will 3*
41. Spatial Awareness 3*
42. Empathy 3*
43. Iron Will 4*
44. Spatial Awareness 4*
45. Empathy 4*
46. Iron Will 5*
47. Spatial Awareness 5*
48. Empathy 5*
* Order doesn't matter.
49. Focus 1
50. Clarity 1
51. Presence 1
52. Focus 2
53. Clarity 2
54. Presence 2
55. Focus 3
56. Clarity 3
57. Presence 3
58. Focus 4
59. Clarity 4
60. Presence 4
61. Focus 5
62. Clarity 5
63. Presence 5


"Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past." Hopefully newbies will understand why vets get a bit cranky when new ideas about increasing the skill training rate come up.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Azemar
Voidhounds
Pretenders
#15 - 2012-04-25 00:17:50 UTC
While I do not have the knowledge to properly create it, I still feel as if there should be some way to actively increase your training time. A way that would have no grinding and incorporate no P2W. The current system benefits only old players and discourages new ones.
Elsbeth Taron
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-04-25 05:02:51 UTC
Azemar wrote:
While I do not have the knowledge to properly create it, I still feel as if there should be some way to actively increase your training time. A way that would have no grinding and incorporate no P2W. The current system benefits only old players and discourages new ones.


I'm sure you've noticed those most against any notion of increasing training speed are the older players.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#17 - 2012-04-25 06:04:13 UTC
Azemar wrote:
While I do not have the knowledge to properly create it, I still feel as if there should be some way to actively increase your training time. A way that would have no grinding and incorporate no P2W. The current system benefits only old players and discourages new ones.


There already is one. You've been told about it. Hint: character bazaar....
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#18 - 2012-04-25 07:13:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Sable Moran
Elsbeth Taron wrote:
Azemar wrote:
While I do not have the knowledge to properly create it, I still feel as if there should be some way to actively increase your training time. A way that would have no grinding and incorporate no P2W. The current system benefits only old players and discourages new ones.


I'm sure you've noticed those most against any notion of increasing training speed are the older players.


Yes, it's mostly us old players. But not for the reasons you think.

We don't oppose these ideas because they would give a new player a leg up or give them 'an unfair advantage' or anything silly like that.

We oppose those ideas because we actually know how eve works because, you know, we've played EvE for a while now, and know how various kinds of 'ideas' would negatively impact eve. The train of thought goes something line this: Oh god, not this dead horse again, why don't they use search before blurting these 'new' ideas!, Rage! NO!

Besides there's always the Malcanis' law hanging above these ideas like Damocles sword.

So, next time think a bit harder before typing, thanks.

EDIT: Active skill training bonus? Nay. It was a feature in eve when it launched, it was also removed in the very first major patch (Castor Dec-2003) for being exploitable and a silly idea in general.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.
Elsbeth Taron
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-04-25 17:45:20 UTC
Sable Moran wrote:

Yes, it's mostly us old players. But not for the reasons you think.

We don't oppose these ideas because they would give a new player a leg up or give them 'an unfair advantage' or anything silly like that.

Why would I think that?

Sable Moran wrote:

We oppose those ideas because we actually know how eve works because, you know, we've played EvE for a while now, and know how various kinds of 'ideas' would negatively impact eve. The train of thought goes something line this: Oh god, not this dead horse again, why don't they use search before blurting these 'new' ideas!, Rage! NO!

Besides there's always the Malcanis' law hanging above these ideas like Damocles sword.

So, next time think a bit harder before typing, thanks.

What a wonderfully pompous parting shot.

Sable Moran wrote:

EDIT: Active skill training bonus? Nay. It was a feature in eve when it launched, it was also removed in the very first major patch (Castor Dec-2003) for being exploitable and a silly idea in general.


Silly? People learn faster if they use the skill, as opposed to sitting on their arses while a skill appears magically in their minds after a set period? Why is that silly?

This passive training conflicts with so much of Eve. Success in hitting a target depends on a lot of factors, all of them true in the real world. Flying a ship isn't quite true, but factors in mass and agility so it isn't far fetched. Yet when it comes to learning new skills no work is involved. I can be on holiday, away from the game, and return to have the same ship bonuses as someone who played and flew daily the ship.

The OP is not wrong in raising this point, nor is he wrong in saying the current setup favours old-timers. I would have thought their experience in the game would be enough of a bonus.

So as the topic is how to reward players for being active in the game, how about speed up training in Minmatar Cruiser depending on my standing with the Minmatar Republic? Can't see how that can be exploited, I'll have put in the hours getting that standing. Maybe also benefit training in projectile weapons, as they're our favoured weapons.

I don't think it's a bad idea rewarding active play. Hardly silly.
Pyrosomniac
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-04-25 18:15:43 UTC
I believe the idea is good, but for it to mesh with current game mechanics should NEVER happen.

The only way I'd see it being included is by introducing an entire line of skills that can ONLY be trained in this fashion, and no other way. Not only that, but they couldn't be as influential as any other skill. They'd have to be so niche that it doesn't affect the current meta game.

Prime example would be Social Skills. It doesn't make a lot of sense that people like you because you read a book. Social would be gained by missioning with different NPC's of different personalities. Connections would be earned by having ACTUAL connections, Diplomacy is earned by being a Diplomat for your race, eg, helping out Amarr people as Gallente.

But the problem with that is that you can't just implement that! They've been around for ages, people have trained them already. How do you adjust that? You can't do that on the fly, which is why I believe it has to be done with a new set of skills that do not impact the game in any way significantly, which then begs the question as to why the skills are there in the first place!

TL;DR: Interesting concept, but realistically implementing it without enraging everyone is impossible.
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