These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Module activation delay. (Videos inside)

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Othran
Route One
#81 - 2012-07-02 13:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
If you pre-activate a module then lock, the only logical way of doing what should really be happening (but isn't) is merging the "activations" at the server. The pre-activation occurs on one tick and the lock on another - maybe command-queuing would be a better description than "merging", I dunno.

eg the scram is pre-activated for a couple of seconds then you lock up a target - this should result in the target/targeter being notified he's been scrammed as soon as the period where lock completed "ticks" over. The lock notification should be implied by the completed scram, it shouldn't need another tick.

I don't envy whoever recodes that so that its reliable and not exploitable but I'll come test it on sisi if you do make the change. I suspect a lot of others feel the same.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#82 - 2012-07-02 13:28:13 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
You guys are giving me a good idea for a devblog 'cause it's clear the whole 1hz tick thing is confusing to some ;)



Yes please

brb
Othran
Route One
#83 - 2012-07-02 13:41:40 UTC
For anyone who hasn't been fast tackle this probably seems utterly trivial.

For anyone who has played "fastest finger first" P for the gang its incredibly frustrating, no matter what the setup.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#84 - 2012-07-02 13:49:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Pipa Porto wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:
You guys are giving me a good idea for a devblog 'cause it's clear the whole 1hz tick thing is confusing to some ;)


A Dev blog detailing how it works would be awesome.

(Could you also detail how aligning works, so we can finally put to rest the idea of a passive align, pretty please?)


It's already very very very very very well documented how aligning works, another dev blog on it won't help people who haven't taken the time to read the existing material on it, just like all the people who think "aggressive" drones will aggress can flippers.

They're myths spread by well intentioned but ill-informed people sitting in help channels offering advice.

E: I would support a resolution on this issue, it is actually really annoying to be told you have a point and then not.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#85 - 2012-07-02 13:51:03 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
You guys are giving me a good idea for a devblog 'cause it's clear the whole 1hz tick thing is confusing to some ;)

any chance to increase the heartbeat? Server could fall back to the slower beat when under load.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Pipa Porto
#86 - 2012-07-02 13:51:58 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:
You guys are giving me a good idea for a devblog 'cause it's clear the whole 1hz tick thing is confusing to some ;)


A Dev blog detailing how it works would be awesome.

(Could you also detail how aligning works, so we can finally put to rest the idea of a passive align, pretty please?)


It's already very very very very very well documented how aligning works, another dev blog on it won't help people who haven't taken the time to read the existing material on it, just like all the people who think "aggressive" drones will aggress can flippers.

They're myths spread by well intentioned but ill-informed people sitting in help channels offering advice.

E: I would support a resolution on this issue, it is actually really annoying.


I know that it's well documented. But being able to link a DevBlog and say "look you blistering barnacled baboon, here's exactly how it works, straight from the horse's mouth" would be nice for some of the denser people who cling tight to they're myth.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Molinator Agnon
Oruze Cruise
#87 - 2012-07-02 13:53:08 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Right now, in big fleet fights, the server takes 10-20s to complete the calculations it needs to for each tick (this is what TiDi does).
Speeding up the ticks to a FPS-like ~30HZ would mean that, for each second of IF elapsed time, the server would spend 300-600s to complete the calculations.

Increasing the server granularity would TiDi all of the hamsters until they died.

Right, but as was mentioned before, there might be a way to do some reverse tidi to decrease latency during times of low-load, when grids are small and objects few.

Anyways, I'd be very very interested in a dev blog on this to at least get some better info, and also to hopefully ease my mind that the future EVE might be a bit more snappy.
CCP Veritas
C C P
C C P Alliance
#88 - 2012-07-02 13:54:15 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:
You guys are giving me a good idea for a devblog 'cause it's clear the whole 1hz tick thing is confusing to some ;)

any chance to increase the heartbeat? Server could fall back to the slower beat when under load.

It's possible that we'd increase the Destiny update rate at some point. We'd still use TiDi as the overload mechanism though, switching update rates on the fly is just unnecessarily complicated.

What is this aligning myth y'all are talking about? I must be out of the loop on that one.

CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online
Cebraio
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
#89 - 2012-07-02 14:14:10 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
You guys are giving me a good idea for a devblog 'cause it's clear the whole 1hz tick thing is confusing to some ;)


Isn't that covered here already? I remember when I read it back then, I found it very informative. Didn't read it today though. Maybe it's not what you had in mind.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#90 - 2012-07-02 14:35:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Bubanni
CCP Veritas wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:
You guys are giving me a good idea for a devblog 'cause it's clear the whole 1hz tick thing is confusing to some ;)

any chance to increase the heartbeat? Server could fall back to the slower beat when under load.

It's possible that we'd increase the Destiny update rate at some point. We'd still use TiDi as the overload mechanism though, switching update rates on the fly is just unnecessarily complicated.

What is this aligning myth y'all are talking about? I must be out of the loop on that one.


Increased tick rate (when servers allow it) would be nice too, I would personly be happy with prefired modules being server sided...

But increased tick rate would improve the feel of eve by alot I think, more specificly in actions like accelerating, turning your ship... basic manuvering :P like stopping your ship too... all that would react faster then? But I bet that would be much more work than "simply" making prefired modules activated on lock.

Just currious though... have you guys experimented before with making the tick rate of "Destiny" faster?, I mean, say it was 0.5 sec instead of 1 sec... does that increase the load of the servers by 100%? would the servers even be able to finish all the operations? or wouldn't it be able to finish the database queries faster, and thus relieve some stress?
That is something I would be interrested to hear about also in your dev blog if you make one soon :)

- edit: This would also allow frigs to increase their survivability a bit, as they can then change alignment faster, and thus decrease the chance they get one shotted by a hurricane or other snipers

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Bagehi
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#91 - 2012-07-02 14:47:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagehi
I've been on both sides of the coin on this one. I've been locked by ceptors at close range, thought "I'm screwed," then my ship warps off. I've also been on the locking side, both with fast lock/tackle and with alpha fleets. One second delays between locking and module activation are unbearably long when so many things in Eve can happen in the span on fractions of a second.

Another fun one is warping out while the bubble effect is popping up. I assume this is also related to the 1 second tick rate?
Jarin Arenos
Card Shark Industries
#92 - 2012-07-02 15:09:17 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
I know that it's well documented. But being able to link a DevBlog and say "look you blistering barnacled baboon, here's exactly how it works, straight from the horse's mouth" would be nice for some of the denser people who cling tight to they're myth.

Or they could just link here:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Aligning#.27Passive.27_Alignment

But I'm not CCP Soundwave, so what do I know?
CCP Veritas
C C P
C C P Alliance
#93 - 2012-07-02 16:24:16 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
But increased tick rate would improve the feel of eve by alot I think, more specificly in actions like accelerating, turning your ship... basic manuvering :P like stopping your ship too... all that would react faster then? But I bet that would be much more work than "simply" making prefired modules activated on lock.

Just currious though... have you guys experimented before with making the tick rate of "Destiny" faster?, I mean, say it was 0.5 sec instead of 1 sec... does that increase the load of the servers by 100%? would the servers even be able to finish all the operations? or wouldn't it be able to finish the database queries faster, and thus relieve some stress?
That is something I would be interrested to hear about also in your dev blog if you make one soon :)

- edit: This would also allow frigs to increase their survivability a bit, as they can then change alignment faster, and thus decrease the chance they get one shotted by a hurricane or other snipers

Yeah, I've played around with it. It's really easy to change the update rate - it's just a number in a source code file. The effect it has on performance is non-trivial though. While it's not a straight linear increase because it doesn't change the amount of events that happen directly, it does increase the communication overhead and things like that. I'm hoping that we can get to a point with optimization where we can increase it a bit and see how things go. As you say, there's a lot of elements in the game that would benefit from smoother physics.

CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online
CCP Veritas
C C P
C C P Alliance
#94 - 2012-07-02 16:30:50 UTC
Cebraio wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:
You guys are giving me a good idea for a devblog 'cause it's clear the whole 1hz tick thing is confusing to some ;)


Isn't that covered here already? I remember when I read it back then, I found it very informative. Didn't read it today though. Maybe it's not what you had in mind.

That covers things that are inside the tick quite well, but at least from my re-glance-over, doesn't touch the interaction between physics and systems like locking and modules.

CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#95 - 2012-07-02 16:30:56 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
Bubanni wrote:
But increased tick rate would improve the feel of eve by alot I think, more specificly in actions like accelerating, turning your ship... basic manuvering :P like stopping your ship too... all that would react faster then? But I bet that would be much more work than "simply" making prefired modules activated on lock.

Just currious though... have you guys experimented before with making the tick rate of "Destiny" faster?, I mean, say it was 0.5 sec instead of 1 sec... does that increase the load of the servers by 100%? would the servers even be able to finish all the operations? or wouldn't it be able to finish the database queries faster, and thus relieve some stress?
That is something I would be interrested to hear about also in your dev blog if you make one soon :)

- edit: This would also allow frigs to increase their survivability a bit, as they can then change alignment faster, and thus decrease the chance they get one shotted by a hurricane or other snipers

Yeah, I've played around with it. It's really easy to change the update rate - it's just a number in a source code file. The effect it has on performance is non-trivial though. While it's not a straight linear increase because it doesn't change the amount of events that happen directly, it does increase the communication overhead and things like that. I'm hoping that we can get to a point with optimization where we can increase it a bit and see how things go. As you say, there's a lot of elements in the game that would benefit from smoother physics.


Like I said last time... I LOVE YOU!

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#96 - 2012-07-02 18:56:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Pipa Porto wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:
You guys are giving me a good idea for a devblog 'cause it's clear the whole 1hz tick thing is confusing to some ;)


A Dev blog detailing how it works would be awesome.

(Could you also detail how aligning works, so we can finally put to rest the idea of a passive align, pretty please?)


It's already very very very very very well documented how aligning works, another dev blog on it won't help people who haven't taken the time to read the existing material on it, just like all the people who think "aggressive" drones will aggress can flippers.

They're myths spread by well intentioned but ill-informed people sitting in help channels offering advice.

E: I would support a resolution on this issue, it is actually really annoying.


I know that it's well documented. But being able to link a DevBlog and say "look you blistering barnacled baboon, here's exactly how it works, straight from the horse's mouth" would be nice for some of the denser people who cling tight to they're myth.

You mean like the existing "here's exactly how it works" taken straight from the Official Evelopedia? ( http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Aligning )

Quote:
There is no benefit to the ship and how long it takes to get into warp; in EVE, ships are modelled as vectors, and the actual orientation of the engines has no relevance to the direction in which thrust is applied. Therefore the time to warp when passive aligned is the same as if the ship were pointing in the opposite direction but stationary.


Link that. If they won't believe that they won't believe anything. You don't need a dev reply every time someone patently refuses to see what is right in front of them.

@Veritas - the "myth" is that having your ship stationary and pointed at something is "aligned" in some way, despite everything ever telling people this isn't how it works.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#97 - 2012-07-02 19:23:56 UTC
Please give us a nice devblog and faster heartbeat! :D
Kristoffon Ellecon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2012-07-02 22:33:23 UTC
I agree this is an important issue and would like to see it addressed as well.
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2012-07-03 03:09:23 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
Please give us a nice devblog and faster heartbeat! :D

Dammit Jim. I'm a doctor, not an engineer!!!
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#100 - 2012-07-03 20:26:59 UTC
Veritas I was wondering what the eta of your dev blog might be? Roll

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934