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Module activation delay. (Videos inside)

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Author
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#1 - 2012-04-24 12:27:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Bubanni
Hi CCP, and everybody else....

Can you please work on improveing module activation delay... or more specificly, the time it takes for a warp disruptor to activate right after you locked a target (fx a fast frigate)

As I see it now, there is a delay that allows you to lock the target right before it enters warp, while trying to point it with a warp disruptor or such, but because of that delay it will warp away before the module activates...

I recall a time when the delay was much smaller, but it's very visible now....

So whats the problem...? I often hear people call "point" when in fact they only just locked the target... only to see the target warp away a half second later... most often it's light ships that warp fast anyway like frigates...
other times it's after a tackle has burned at a target that was aligning out...

The problem is not actually that people call point before the target is pointed, but that they were used to the fact that the target was pointed when the target was locked...

I am aware that this game is "tick" based, and that's the main reason for this problem, but what if you made "prefired points" server sided? so they actually activated the same "tick" as you locked the target.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRQ7yF4a4dg <-- just uploaded this video clearly showing the problem

(I have confirmed myself while I made that video it takes exactly 1sec after you locked the target, until the module activates)

" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VtsnhAomJs first example, I found that it happened often when I had about 1200-1400 scan res vs a rifter with 2x tech 1 nanofibers... back then

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPrAk0hXpgI in this second video I am using an 1800+ Scan res cynabal... I started locking the frigate half a second after it became visable, managed to get a lock on it, and it then warped away... Note that I did not activate the warp disruptor until after I started locking it...and it is clearly flashing grey..."

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Rahnim
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2012-04-24 13:02:51 UTC
Aman brother, it's annoying when it happens. basicly if you lock a frigate in 2 sec, and the frigate has a 2.9sec align time, it will be basicly im possible to point him :), because the module takes a full extra second to activae after you locked the target...! I have myself experienced locking frigates with a less than 1 sec lock time, and still failed to get them painted because they had a align time of about 2+ sec... I would get a lock on them most of the time, but the point would never activate before they had already warped away.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#3 - 2012-04-24 13:10:45 UTC
So, I was thinking, could more poeple confirm they experienced this annoying delay? and how many would agree they want it optimized to "happen less" ?

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Savage Creampuff
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-04-24 13:28:13 UTC
heat the mod before or while locking? assuming you have nobody else locked
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#5 - 2012-04-24 13:36:14 UTC
Savage Creampuff wrote:
heat the mod before or while locking? assuming you have nobody else locked


Both in attempts where it was "heated" before locking, and after locking, but even then... if that was the problem, they should optimize the "heated" modules

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Raiz Nhell
Tactically Challenged
Tactical Supremacy
#6 - 2012-04-24 13:42:57 UTC
I think it's called "lag" and it happens to the best of us...

There is no such thing as a fair fight...

If your fighting fair you have automatically put yourself at a disadvantage.

Banjo String
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#7 - 2012-04-24 13:50:28 UTC
You dont need to 'heat' the module before locking.

just click the module to activate it, then start locking - or start locknig and activate the module before the lock finishes.

In either case, so long as the odule is queued up to activate before the lock finishes it should activate on the target as soon as the lock ends.

I've never had any problems with it taking a second longer after the lock is gained.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#8 - 2012-04-24 13:54:05 UTC
Raiz Nhell wrote:
I think it's called "lag" and it happens to the best of us...


It's actually not really lag kind sir, it's the order in which the server handles the requests... it's the fact that the server runs in 1 sec ticks.... it's that fact that first.. the your client tells the server that you want to lock a ship... it then does that.... afterwards the server tells your client you have now locked the target... and then the your client tells the server it wants to activate the point... which happens 1 sec later, instead of on the same server tick

I talked to GM's about it before, I bug reported it and everything and had another thread about it long ago... nothing has happened about it since then, and I can safely assume most had forgotten about it...

well I also frapsed 2 videos with me demonstrating the problem together with a old corp mate... links are below...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VtsnhAomJs first example, I found that it happened often when I had about 1200-1400 scan res vs a rifter with 2x tech 1 nanofibers... back then

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPrAk0hXpgI in this second video I am using an 1800+ Scan res cynabal... I started locking the frigate half a second after it became visable, managed to get a lock on it, and it then warped away... Note that I did not activate the warp disruptor until after I started locking it...and it is clearly flashing grey...

Of cause these rifters were fitted for high agility, and not every single ship is fitted like that, but it clearly demonstrates the problem... Pre fired modules should be made server sided so the server actives the modules when the target is locked on the same server tick... and no on the next server tick

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#9 - 2012-04-24 13:56:53 UTC
Banjo String wrote:
You dont need to 'heat' the module before locking.

just click the module to activate it, then start locking - or start locking and activate the module before the lock finishes.

In either case, so long as the odule is queued up to activate before the lock finishes it should activate on the target as soon as the lock ends.

I've never had any problems with it taking a second longer after the lock is gained.


Look at my videos, they will confirm the problems, and by "heat" it means prefired, activated before the locking finishes or before you even begin locking ;)

also, as I said, it's not a problem when the target isn't warping fast enough + you still have high enough scan res...

But even in examples of bigger ships trying to tackle bigger ships, this can happen.

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#10 - 2012-04-24 14:05:43 UTC
If your client tell you your modules have activate on a target, but they still warp off/no effect, then it's quite likely their client hasn't gotten that information. I.e. there's traffic between your client, server, his client. What you 'see' hasn't necessarily happened. Quite likely in fact, it hasn't. Whatever the server processes is the truth, whatever your client shows, is just your side of the story. P

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.

Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#11 - 2012-04-24 14:08:39 UTC
Misanth wrote:
If your client tell you your modules have activate on a target, but they still warp off/no effect, then it's quite likely their client hasn't gotten that information. I.e. there's traffic between your client, server, his client. What you 'see' hasn't necessarily happened. Quite likely in fact, it hasn't. Whatever the server processes is the truth, whatever your client shows, is just your side of the story. P


I am about to upload a video that shows the problem... give me a few min, it's not that the client tells you that you have warp disrupted the target... it's that it takes so long before it does... :) anyway, look back in about 15 mins+

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#12 - 2012-04-24 14:21:44 UTC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRQ7yF4a4dg here is the video I just uploaded...
while editing the video, I zoomed in and looked frame by frame, at 4:04-05 I finish locking the "item" with a prefired warp disruptor... the warp disruptor is not activated until 5:05...

That is 1 full second later, also known as 1 server tick later.. like I said, it has nothing to do with lag, it's simply the way the server handles requests, go try it yourself...

Now, call it a problem or not, that's up to yourself, and what kind of PvP you use it for (it's not a problem when doing industry, mining, missioning or any other kind of PvE)... it's not a big problem when your not trying to catch fast stuff... :) but it's clearly a problem when you are... 1 second is a very long time, specially after considering locking time also...

Well, anyway... look at that video, and tell me what you think, and replicate it... and tell me it doesn't happen to you... and if it doesn't happen, then fraps it and show me, because from experience it's like this for everyone

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#13 - 2012-04-24 14:41:22 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
Misanth wrote:
If your client tell you your modules have activate on a target, but they still warp off/no effect, then it's quite likely their client hasn't gotten that information. I.e. there's traffic between your client, server, his client. What you 'see' hasn't necessarily happened. Quite likely in fact, it hasn't. Whatever the server processes is the truth, whatever your client shows, is just your side of the story. P


I am about to upload a video that shows the problem... give me a few min, it's not that the client tells you that you have warp disrupted the target... it's that it takes so long before it does... :) anyway, look back in about 15 mins+


Everyone knows this man, my post was in half-jest. It's the same as when I warped off a gate with no hostiles on it, then (while in warp) I got teleported back to the gate I came from, killed and podded. My client told me I warped off the gate 30 seconds before I was teleported back. Logs (obv clientside) shows me I initiated warp 30sec+ before I even got damage notifications. We were less than 50 people in local, they were ~20-25 landing on the gate and we were 4-5 leaving it. No visible lag, no module delays, etc.

The non-jest part in my post is this; your client tells you ALOT of stuff, and sometimes impossible/should-not-happen stuff happens. Like me being teleported back, half a minute after my sub 4 sec align time ship had told me it was warping. Like when your modules tell you they are activated, you even see them run a full cycle or start a second, at times, and yet they seem to have no effect. But in the end, what matters, is what the server says. CCP cannot check what our clients tells us, it's unreasonable and the workload for GM's would be immense, and so much potential for players to try cheat themselves into reimbursements. So when the server tells CCP that our modules did not activate, or that targets was out of range, even tho we saw something different..

TL;DR we have to suck it up.
Players don't want this to happen, CCP don't want this to happen, but you won't be able to "fix" this, and this is one of the rare cases I actually trust CCP will try to make this as good as possible. What?

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.

Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#14 - 2012-04-24 15:33:30 UTC
Misanth wrote:
Bubanni wrote:
Misanth wrote:
If your client tell you your modules have activate on a target, but they still warp off/no effect, then it's quite likely their client hasn't gotten that information. I.e. there's traffic between your client, server, his client. What you 'see' hasn't necessarily happened. Quite likely in fact, it hasn't. Whatever the server processes is the truth, whatever your client shows, is just your side of the story. P


I am about to upload a video that shows the problem... give me a few min, it's not that the client tells you that you have warp disrupted the target... it's that it takes so long before it does... :) anyway, look back in about 15 mins+


Everyone knows this man, my post was in half-jest. It's the same as when I warped off a gate with no hostiles on it, then (while in warp) I got teleported back to the gate I came from, killed and podded. My client told me I warped off the gate 30 seconds before I was teleported back. Logs (obv clientside) shows me I initiated warp 30sec+ before I even got damage notifications. We were less than 50 people in local, they were ~20-25 landing on the gate and we were 4-5 leaving it. No visible lag, no module delays, etc.

The non-jest part in my post is this; your client tells you ALOT of stuff, and sometimes impossible/should-not-happen stuff happens. Like me being teleported back, half a minute after my sub 4 sec align time ship had told me it was warping. Like when your modules tell you they are activated, you even see them run a full cycle or start a second, at times, and yet they seem to have no effect. But in the end, what matters, is what the server says. CCP cannot check what our clients tells us, it's unreasonable and the workload for GM's would be immense, and so much potential for players to try cheat themselves into reimbursements. So when the server tells CCP that our modules did not activate, or that targets was out of range, even tho we saw something different..

TL;DR we have to suck it up.
Players don't want this to happen, CCP don't want this to happen, but you won't be able to "fix" this, and this is one of the rare cases I actually trust CCP will try to make this as good as possible. What?


:) Well, what I am talking about is nothing to do with what your talking about here... the module doesn't even activate on client side until a full second later, same thing server side... there is no difference there the second the warp disruption icon is visable on the "locked ships" is when they are pointed, and they wont be warping away unless they have warp stabs (unless in rare cases, like what you are talking about, where they are desynced)... no this is an entirely different problem... it's that the module does not even try to activate until after the ship is locked, and it then takes an additional server tick before that happens, this is what I want changed... :)

TL;DR... no, not what I was talking about, and module should activate instantly when you locked the target (same server tick, not a second later)

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Mark Androcius
#15 - 2012-04-24 15:41:26 UTC
Easy fix, click the scrambler before targeting and then click the intended target, this makes it work the instant you have lock, no lag at all.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#16 - 2012-04-24 15:51:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Bubanni
Mark Androcius wrote:
Easy fix, click the scrambler before targeting and then click the intended target, this makes it work the instant you have lock, no lag at all.


Did you not just watch the video I linked? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRQ7yF4a4dg This one... which clearly shows it doesn't... :D now do you understand?

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Mark Androcius
#17 - 2012-04-24 16:04:38 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
Mark Androcius wrote:
Easy fix, click the scrambler before targeting and then click the intended target, this makes it work the instant you have lock, no lag at all.


Did you not just watch the video I linked? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRQ7yF4a4dg This one... which clearly shows it doesn't... :D now do you understand?


Ouch, my bad, didn't see that one indeed.

I never have that problem though, possibly an isp issue?
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#18 - 2012-04-24 16:14:00 UTC
Mark Androcius wrote:
Bubanni wrote:
Mark Androcius wrote:
Easy fix, click the scrambler before targeting and then click the intended target, this makes it work the instant you have lock, no lag at all.


Did you not just watch the video I linked? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRQ7yF4a4dg This one... which clearly shows it doesn't... :D now do you understand?


Ouch, my bad, didn't see that one indeed.

I never have that problem though, possibly an isp issue?


Nope, for one, I live relatively close to the isp, I live close to the eve online server... super computer, good ping...
you might think you don't have this problem... but really, go to something you can point or something, and try doing what I jyst did in the video... :) I bet you will notice that 1 sec delay too

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2012-04-24 16:37:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
Mark Androcius wrote:

Ouch, my bad, didn't see that one indeed.

I never have that problem though, possibly an isp issue?

Bubanni already explained the component that is most likely responsible for the observed behavior: the server-side simulation runs on 1 Hz.

So it can take for up to a second for any action you take to be processed.
For a demonstration of this effect let a large fleet jump through a gate: It's reasonable to assume that the timing at which people click the gate is pretty random, yet you'll see them flash in waves (with one second between them) as they jump.

The server updates the state of the solar system once every second, so how EVE works is

TICK status of the world is initialized
players click things, odd timers run out, ...
TICK server processes everything that has happened since the last tick and updates the status of the world

The simulation runs at 1Hz for both you and the player you are trying to tackle. What happens is probably something like this

Player A is sitting at one side of the gate, Player B at the other

Player B hits jump
TICK - Player B jumps into the system and loads grid
Player B hits warp
TICK Player B is now uncloaked and aligning towards his warp destination
Player A hits Lock and activates his warp disruptor
TICK Player A has started locking, Player B is still aligning
Player A's locking timer runs out
Player B has reached the velocity to start warp
TICK now the server has to decide in which order to process these two actions.

What Bubanni insinuates is that the order of precedence in which things that happened since the last TICK are processed may have changed - with (possibly unintended) side effects on gameplay.

There are many plausible ways to establish an order of execution, e.g.
* "tag everything that happens between ticks with a timestamp and execute actions in the same order they would have happened in continuous time"
* "let all competing actions roll dice against each other and perform the winner first"
* "process commands in some fixed, arbitrary order, e.g. always process warp and movement commands before module activations because 'w' for warp comes after 'a' for activation in the alphabet"
* "process commands in some fixed order that is based on performance criteria and designed with an eye towards graceful degradation" (maybe it is more important to process warps before module activations to keep a 1000vs1000 lagfest playable and somewhat synced?)
* "adjust the order of execution based on node load to ensure optimal performance and graceful degradation"
...

If all the Ifs and assumptions in this post are near the mark I would look for the culprit somewhere in the many performance optimizations during the last 1-2 years.
leich
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#20 - 2012-04-24 16:38:09 UTC
This has been an issue for a long time mabey 2 years.

It does seem to have been made worse since last patch and the 'upgrade of the overview'

really needs to be looked at as it makes quick aligning ships impossible to catch.
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