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Failure To Assimilate The Matari: A Post Mortem

Author
Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#101 - 2012-05-01 01:14:21 UTC
I adore this juxtaposition so much:

Anabella Rella wrote:
Oh do shut up, Noh. Your act has gotten stale and quite tedious by now. No one here is enjoying hearing your fractured logic.


Anabella Rella wrote:
I don't know who died and elevated Farel and Cael to the moral arbiters of GalNet...


... that I am just going to let it sit there while I drink in its beauty. And, done.

We have gotten a bit off track, however, and so I shall remind the studio audience of the discussion's central premise: rather than Reclaim all of the Matari, Amarr should focus on the Sebiestor; and, rather than defend the Sebiestor, other tribes should praise the Devourer for lowering its tentacles from the sky once again and carrying them away.

Sebiestor crimes against the Republic are racial: the pale pasty minority tribe has taken all the good jobs, while the brown people lift things.

Amarr understands racism, of course, we just happen to be honest about it. Moreover, in the present day Republic, Sebiestor continue to have all the good jobs, while brown people continue to lift things (except for the blind guy). In present day Amarr, the True Amarr continue to stab each other in the back gloriously, while the formerly enslaved Udorians, Khanid, and Ni-Kunni create economic value. Amarr is consequently a society of *more* economic opportunity, in the long run, than the Republic. Go figure.

If only the Jove had given us a few more centuries. Hmmm. Perhaps the Jove are (were?) themselves a bit dishonestly racist.

Now because this is a forum of capsuleers, I would be remiss not to explore the possibilities that entails. Consequently, I must wonder out loud if perhaps there are any Krusual who are not so keen to make nice with the tribes that considered them "barbaric" all those years. I know, I know, there are Krusual who are loyal to the blind guy. That does not preclude the possibility, however, that there may yet remain other Krusual (or those sympathetic to the Krusual) who might like to have it out with this "representative" system of government.

Krusual (or those sympathetic to the Krusual) who might be interested in a more formalized effort to... overthrow the Republic and replace it with rule by the Krusual. Yes? Perhaps? Feel free to drop me a line. No need to air true ambition in public!

Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#102 - 2012-05-01 01:28:19 UTC
Gosakumori Noh wrote:

Sebiestor crimes against the Republic are racial: the pale pasty minority tribe has taken all the good jobs, while the brown people lift things.



Yes. There are no Brutor engineers at Boundless Creations whatsoever. Or doctors, or anything else like that. Nor are there any Sebiestor working construction with Six Kin.


You're stupid, I swear.
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#103 - 2012-05-01 05:26:14 UTC
Gosakumori Noh wrote:

Sebiestor crimes against the Republic are racial: the pale pasty minority tribe has taken all the good jobs, while the brown people lift things.


Maybe if I repost this it will stop being ********.

Edit: Nope. As it turns out, still pretty damn foolish.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2012-05-01 06:24:20 UTC
Gosakumori Noh wrote:
Sebiestor crimes against the Republic are racial: the pale pasty minority tribe has taken all the good jobs, while the brown people lift things.

Amarr understands racism, of course, we just happen to be honest about it. Moreover, in the present day Republic, Sebiestor continue to have all the good jobs, while brown people continue to lift things (except for the blind guy).


Like most Amarrians, you are so laughably misinformed so as to make me ponder whether you may, in fact, be talking to us from a completely different universe in which your petty delusions have some vague resemblance to reality, rather than merely being what they are in this universe - falsehoods born of ignorance and poor brain maintenance.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#105 - 2012-05-01 06:33:49 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Anabella Rella wrote:
Oh do shut up, Noh. Your act has gotten stale and quite tedious by now. No one here is enjoying hearing your fractured logic and pseudo-intellectual prattle except you.



May I respectfully point out that you are not helping your case with such answers ? At best, you deny people the right to express themselves - however one can feel about what has been said - and at worst, you only make yourself look unable to build a proper argument to counter what has been said. If it is so fractured and pseudo-intellectual, what do you have to fear if your answer is well documented and rationaly constructed ? By default, you implied that lady Noh won the argument as soon as you told her to "shut up". You also state that her argument has become stale and tedious, and yet offer no explanation of how you came to that conclusion.

It would have been ten times better for you either to build up a rational reasoning or either not to answer at all. If you think that people look stupid alone without your help, the audience will see through it too. Now that I think of it, you should follow the 10 PR rules of your own leadership, especially rules #8, #9 and #10. They are wise. Rules #1 and #2 are more of a concern for your leadership, I guess.



Pilot Farel you like to present yourself as the voice of reason but as another pointed out somewhat obliquely I'd like to state plainly; namely that something about who and what you defend (or attack) doesn't quite pass my smell test.

Why is it that you never spoke out against the utterly vile premise of Pilot Noh's original post yet, you're so incensed by Pilot Rella's off the cuff remarks that you felt it worthy of unleashing a fusillade of thinly disguised (and transparently passive-aggressive) insults under the guise of advise? Why do you not call to account the numerous Amarrian provocateurs who regularly post the most outrageous screeds totally devoid of fact yet, when an insulted Minmatar responds you take them to task for not following the "appropriate" rhetorical conventions? Could it be that your prior allegiances are coloring your supposed objectivity?

We're all human beings tainted by our past experiences, environment, etc. The best we can do is to recognize those biases, attempt to deal with them honestly and to knock them down when they interfere with our objectivity. Pretending that one is totally free of said bias and admonishing others as you do is either the height of naive self-deception or of breathtaking arrogant hypocrisy.
Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#106 - 2012-05-01 06:43:08 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
Why is it that you never spoke out against the utterly vile premise of Pilot Noh's original post etc etc etc


Actually, doll, she did: "In terms of logical reasoning, taking one specific fact as an example (premise : Rek Jaiga loyalty is unstable), and concluding that it must be the case for all, thus making up a generalisation out of one single fact, is absurd."

Thank you for the bump, though! Kisses. Hugs. All that.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#107 - 2012-05-01 10:50:35 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
Why is it that you never spoke out against the utterly vile premise of Pilot Noh's original post yet


She did.

Quote:
you're so incensed by Pilot Rella's off the cuff remarks that you felt it worthy of unleashing a fusillade of thinly disguised (and transparently passive-aggressive) insults under the guise of advise?


That's what it was? Odd, it read to me more like advice from someone who supported Captain Rella's position and wanted such a stance to not be discoloured by poor argumentation due to emotional compromise.

Because funnily enough it was exactly what I'd have written had Lynara not have done so, and for the exact reason stated above.


Quote:
Why do you not call to account the numerous Amarrian provocateurs who regularly post the most outrageous screeds totally devoid of fact yet, when an insulted Minmatar responds you take them to task for not following the "appropriate" rhetorical conventions?


I can't speak for Lynara on this one but at a guess, somewhere between "There's already a half dozen people who've beaten me to the punch" and "I don't care for them enough to offer advice as I don't support their position."

Quote:
Could it be that your prior allegiances are coloring your supposed objectivity?

We're all human beings tainted by our past experiences, environment, etc. The best we can do is to recognize those biases, attempt to deal with them honestly and to knock them down when they interfere with our objectivity.


I'm starting to question who exactly is unable to see past prior allegiances here that is putting bias to their judgement Captain.


Quote:
Pretending that one is totally free of said bias and admonishing others as you do is either the height of naive self-deception or of breathtaking arrogant hypocrisy.


Ditto.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2012-05-01 11:07:25 UTC
Why is Noh so ridiculously photogenic?

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#109 - 2012-05-01 11:10:59 UTC
Halete wrote:
Why is Noh so ridiculously photogenic?


The right application of light and makeup can achieve wondrous things.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2012-05-01 11:17:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Halete
I'm kind of wishing that the other Tribes did rat me back into slavery right about now so that I didn't have to hear more of this tripe.

The realization that I'm looking at what I'm going to have to tolerate for certainly the next few decades is a solemn one, indeed.

So how are you, Caellach?

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21

Ssakaa
Animatar Foundation
#111 - 2012-05-01 11:17:51 UTC
It's been an entertainment fit for emperors this debate of yours, photogenic Gosakumori Noh.

What we can glean:

Firstly, we learn that Udorians scheme against their masters and rivals and this is pleasing. It would appear, however, to a laywoman's eye that they're laboriously 'going around the parish to get to the church'; couldn't they simply drop a few micrograms of subtle poison into Jamyl's Weightwatchers' low calorie carrot and lentil soup at an opportune moment? Something simple like that or so-and-so.

A proposition of this kind must surely excite you! -after all, Family Tash-Murkon...

(honestly, that's an ugly monicker. I'm seeing thick oily moustaches)

... would certainly benefit from this creative, inventive, polyunsaturated coup-de-grace if successful. You yourself would indirectly benefit as you've identified a fondness for this part of your heritage (And why should you not? It's clear that your Udorians have been very hard done by, if one studies their history even in passing). Life really can be unjust sometimes, do you not agree?

Flights of fancy aside, secondly and more importantly, you've also raised the Krusualuu public profile, bless their hearts. Any publicity is good publicity as they do say from time to time. Please start a lively debate on our Thukker brothers and sisters next time, we so seldom get a chance to admire their achievements in our day-to-day lives and we ought.

Or better yet -nefantar. Lyn Farel could pontificate at her leisure in that one.

Lastliest, 'Family business' as pointed out to you. It really is insurmountable to assault from without and within, in our times.

Until next time, Gosakumori Noh.

"Modern Life is Rubbish"

Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#112 - 2012-05-01 11:24:30 UTC
I for one echo the former sentiment; talk of the Krusual is too scarce these days.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#113 - 2012-05-01 11:31:39 UTC
Halete wrote:
I'm kind of wishing that the other Tribes did rat me back into slavery right about now so that I didn't have to hear more of this tripe.


I'm sure the optional reading of the IGS is better than having your bare stomach prodded at by the toes of some old Amarrian Crone.

Quote:
The realization that I'm looking at what I'm going to have to tolerate for certainly the next few decades is a solemn one, indeed.


It could be worse, next time you find yourself saddened by the state of affairs on here, just think you could be subject to the cries of "Coochy coochy coo!" instead.

Quote:
So how are you, Caellach?


I could use a drink, but that's hardly anything new. Things otherwise are well, yourself?

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#114 - 2012-05-01 11:38:39 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:

I'm sure the optional reading of the IGS is better than having your bare stomach prodded at by the toes of some old Amarrian Crone.


Horribly addicted I'm afraid. I'm interfacing with dozens of things, as we speak. The relatively unabashed stream of information is very liberating.

Quote:

It could be worse, next time you find yourself saddened by the state of affairs on here, just think you could be subject to the cries of "Coochy coochy coo!" instead.


Okay, point taken. ... Ugh.


Quote:

I could use a drink, but that's hardly anything new. Things otherwise are well, yourself?


I seem to vaguely remember throttling Rek yesterday, then it's all a blur after that. Considering my recollection of last night, I'm fairly well for the circumstances.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#115 - 2012-05-01 12:43:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Nick Bete wrote:

Pilot Farel you like to present yourself as the voice of reason but as another pointed out somewhat obliquely I'd like to state plainly; namely that something about who and what you defend (or attack) doesn't quite pass my smell test.

Why is it that you never spoke out against the utterly vile premise of Pilot Noh's original post yet, you're so incensed by Pilot Rella's off the cuff remarks that you felt it worthy of unleashing a fusillade of thinly disguised (and transparently passive-aggressive) insults under the guise of advise? Why do you not call to account the numerous Amarrian provocateurs who regularly post the most outrageous screeds totally devoid of fact yet, when an insulted Minmatar responds you take them to task for not following the "appropriate" rhetorical conventions? Could it be that your prior allegiances are coloring your supposed objectivity?

We're all human beings tainted by our past experiences, environment, etc. The best we can do is to recognize those biases, attempt to deal with them honestly and to knock them down when they interfere with our objectivity. Pretending that one is totally free of said bias and admonishing others as you do is either the height of naive self-deception or of breathtaking arrogant hypocrisy.


I am not really surprised to read that from you. As usual you prefer to go ad-hominem instead of adressing my points. I am also almost pretty sure that you agree with them, anyway. You just choosed to ignore their validity because it suits your own colored agendas - defending the people sharing your views whatever it takes, as poor as some of their answers could have been. And you call me colored ? What a bunch of populist hypocrits we have here.

The only one that choosed to be reasonable while still adressing some concern about my point was Deciever's Voice, and I agree with most of what she said.

As precised above, I raised my own points against the OP in my two first messages (pages 1 and 2). So yes, instead of using your tu quoque ad-hominem rhetoric, I would suggest that you start to use your own advice about knowing one's own biases. The correct truth is not always the one that seems to be.

When you say that I "never call to account all the Amarrian provocateurs", either you have a short memory, or either you only see what you want to see. I actually do it most of the times, though at least, and as absurd or non rational their drivels may be, they usually put the form and carefully explain their reasoning behind. But that said, why do you think I have been branded heretic in the past by numerous amarrian loyalists, like PIE Inc ?

Also, I do not really know what makes you and people think that I like to present myself like the voice of reason or other silly things like this (this purely out of curiosity ?). I try to remain reasonable and rational, but that does not mean that I am alone doing so, and I also wonder what you are waiting for to do the same. Yes, more respect and rationality, and less bias and demagogy is what I am looking for. I couldnt care less if people see me like an arrogant white knight or other silly considerations.


A small edit : this reminds me a little of Aria Jenneth. She sometimes faced the same remarks.
Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#116 - 2012-05-01 16:30:03 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Nick Bete wrote:

Pilot Farel you like to present yourself as the voice of reason but as another pointed out somewhat obliquely I'd like to state plainly; namely that something about who and what you defend (or attack) doesn't quite pass my smell test.

Why is it that you never spoke out against the utterly vile premise of Pilot Noh's original post yet, you're so incensed by Pilot Rella's off the cuff remarks that you felt it worthy of unleashing a fusillade of thinly disguised (and transparently passive-aggressive) insults under the guise of advise? Why do you not call to account the numerous Amarrian provocateurs who regularly post the most outrageous screeds totally devoid of fact yet, when an insulted Minmatar responds you take them to task for not following the "appropriate" rhetorical conventions? Could it be that your prior allegiances are coloring your supposed objectivity?

We're all human beings tainted by our past experiences, environment, etc. The best we can do is to recognize those biases, attempt to deal with them honestly and to knock them down when they interfere with our objectivity. Pretending that one is totally free of said bias and admonishing others as you do is either the height of naive self-deception or of breathtaking arrogant hypocrisy.


I am not really surprised to read that from you. As usual you prefer to go ad-hominem instead of adressing my points. I am also almost pretty sure that you agree with them, anyway. You just choosed to ignore their validity because it suits your own colored agendas - defending the people sharing your views whatever it takes, as poor as some of their answers could have been. And you call me colored ? What a bunch of populist hypocrits we have here.

The only one that choosed to be reasonable while still adressing some concern about my point was Deciever's Voice, and I agree with most of what she said.

As precised above, I raised my own points against the OP in my two first messages (pages 1 and 2). So yes, instead of using your tu quoque ad-hominem rhetoric, I would suggest that you start to use your own advice about knowing one's own biases. The correct truth is not always the one that seems to be.

When you say that I "never call to account all the Amarrian provocateurs", either you have a short memory, or either you only see what you want to see. I actually do it most of the times, though at least, and as absurd or non rational their drivels may be, they usually put the form and carefully explain their reasoning behind. But that said, why do you think I have been branded heretic in the past by numerous amarrian loyalists, like PIE Inc ?

Also, I do not really know what makes you and people think that I like to present myself like the voice of reason or other silly things like this (this purely out of curiosity ?). I try to remain reasonable and rational, but that does not mean that I am alone doing so, and I also wonder what you are waiting for to do the same. Yes, more respect and rationality, and less bias and demagogy is what I am looking for. I couldnt care less if people see me like an arrogant white knight or other silly considerations.


A small edit : this reminds me a little of Aria Jenneth. She sometimes faced the same remarks.



You profess not to care and yet you respond to my charge of bias at great length. Hmmm... Somehow I'm not surprised. Roll

And madam I've read and admired Captain Jenneth's reasoned posts. Yours aren't even in the same parsec as hers. You give yourself far too much credit.

Crawl back underneath your bridge now Ammatar.
Jev North
Doomheim
#117 - 2012-05-01 17:02:14 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
(Words)

Well, the ratio of interesting discussion, sodomy and memetic engineering to the usual slap-fights was too good to be true for a while there, I suppose. And futile as this request is going to be, I'll still make it - if you have some kind of personal problem with Ms. Farel's behaviour or philosophy, or indeed anyone's, please whine about it elsewhere.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.

Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#118 - 2012-05-01 21:22:30 UTC
Ssakaa wrote:

Firstly, we learn that Udorians scheme against their masters and rivals and this is pleasing. It would appear, however, to a laywoman's eye that they're laboriously 'going around the parish to get to the church'; couldn't they simply drop a few micrograms of subtle poison into Jamyl's Weightwatchers' low calorie carrot and lentil soup at an opportune moment?


Now, sweetie, as I mentioned some time back, Amarr is not civilized, it is a viper pit, a cavern of venomous spiders spinning webs in the dark under our cathedrals to the glory of hatred and strife. Poisoning the Sovereign? A capitol suggestion. The Sovereign is of course also trying to poison you. Or catch you in the act of trying to poison Her, allowing a fine execution and the auction of your family to some arbitrary degree of relation and generation.

Moreover, it wouldn't be good enough to simply poison Her Majesty. That still leaves the other Heirs. They are all trying to poison Her too - oh, and you. Meanwhile, you are trying to poison them. We don't use soup so much as artisan chocolates and Merlot. I myself send boxes of my best candies to family every Winter Solstice. "Merry Frozen Death!" A cousin of mine wrote this year to rave about their quality. A nephew of hers had been lax in keeping up his antivenoms, and died a horrifying death, turning all shades of purple and black. They strung him up on a web of golden chains and lit the funeral pyre beneath. "Merry Frozen Death!" young one's squealed as the victim's possessions were distributed amongst them.

Knowing my proclivities, they sent me his favorite young Sebbie playmate. Such a beautiful gesture!

Where was I? Oh, yes, no one expects to poison the Sovereign. They are Sovereign for a reason. Whatever it might have been, it certainly was not: "easy to poison." But let's say you succeed! You don't then get to be Sovereign just because you got lucky with a toxic truffle. There are the Trials. You have to win (though this may now be a bit up in the air). So maybe you'll make a deal with a young upstart in a rival House. Between the two of you, another lucky toxic truffle finds its mark! Stupendous! Oh, dear, what have you done? You got rid of someone who was weak enough to poison, and replaced them with someone who is strong and knows your tricks. But no matter! Someone else poisoned him just before getting stabbed and now you are Sovereign! Boy-oh-boy-bottoms, does everybody with an estate cellar of poison chocolates *really* hate you.

Nothing is easy in Amarr. It's why I say we are the only true meritocracy in New Eden.

Now, if someone were to poison that blind Brutor... oh what a glorious mess that would unleash. I mention the Krusual here for no particular reason. Well, I suppose there is the fact hey are the most interesting of the Matari tribes. They've got bite. They've got ambition. They know how to plan for the Long Game, too. Amazing, isn't it, that the Amarr knew exactly where to hit the Other Tribes - but not so much the Krusual - on that day the Devourer's tentacles came down from the sky?

Now, the Thukkers are so disinterested in the fate of the Republic that they are without interesting qualities themselves. As the Olders little pets, the Thukkies have their bags packed and are ready to bail at a moment's notice. I dare say many of them have bailed already. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

The Nefantar are the winners of the future Republic by default. They have played both the Amarr and Matari frightfully well. Collaborating on the frontside, and then a little magnanimity toward the irrelevant Starkohnoesitsorbitalbombardment on the backside, and they're heroes within the Republic while retaining Amarr's religion and backing in the Mandate. Neffies are the only winners in all of the factional back and forth that has been going on across all of the cluster. With a foot firmly planted on both sides, Neffies will become the dominant "baseline" population in all of the border systems between Amarr and Matar; and, they'll still have the Mandate. "Plan A," we'll call them.

In the absence of some remarkable development, it's a lock.

But I'm not really a fan of "Plan A." It's dull. The Neffies are positioned to become the second coming of the Khanid, but Amarr's crucible of merit depends upon *pressure*. If the Nefantar turn all of the Republic into one big Mandate, Amarr will have nothing left to do but crush the Gallente once and for all, and then where has the pressure gone?

Who can save us? The Krusual! The Krusual can poison the blind guy, wage war against the other tribes, hand the hated Sebbies over to Amarrian Sebbie-chasers (oh I love it when Mummy's little boy bottoms wiggle above the surf as they run away like that!) for fun and profit, and in place of a Mandate, we shall have a Krusual Khanate awash in glorious blood and mayhem. Now that's *pressure*, sweeties!

Speaking of poisoning the blind guy, it occurs to be that the Serpentis might be terribly useful for... no reason in particular. The Serpentis are in... Fountain? Ooooh, that's a big mean mess, now, isn't it?


ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#119 - 2012-05-01 22:36:06 UTC
Quote:
Amarr will have nothing left to do but crush the Gallente once and for all...


The sheer insanity of this Noh person, is painfully evident with this statement, the Federation has some of the best technology and fashion around, to think that the empire in it's current state could win such a battle is downright hilarious to me. In fact, I think you and Vaari should go out drinking sometime, I think you two have lots in common.

And even if capsuleers are involved, the "frogs" are also better than the "squids", so even that wouldn't make that a reality.
Arkady Vachon
The Gold Angels
Sixth Empire
#120 - 2012-05-02 04:15:36 UTC
Somehow I am not too thrilled with this whole 'poison the blind guy' concept.

Nor am I thrilled with the whole 'crush the Gallente' statement - and I do not consider myself terribly patriotic.

Nothing Personal - Just Business...

Chaos Creates Content