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Failure To Assimilate The Matari: A Post Mortem
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Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#81 - 2012-04-29 23:44:25 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:

Who knows, even Jamyl Sarum got crowned, and she bears countless more sins than a mere racial issue.


Just so. Her Majesty's coronation was a matter of intense controversy, pressurized by a magnificent necessity - the ultimate example of the crucible that is Amarr. Nothing worth it is easy, here. To become Empress when you "shouldn't" requires lighting up a force of mysterious Olders with an even older super weapon. But venomous daggers remain always a capillary away, in the dark under our cathedrals, and even the mighty must continue to show merit day after day - for the alchemy of hatred does not let up.

It is this which makes us the only true meritocracy in New Eden.

Ssakaa wrote:

Gosakumori Noh, I'd like to hear more from you about your Udorian heritage.


We are a dynasty of mutts, the Noh, and so it is true I have some Udorian (inter alia) ancestry. However, I nevertheless fall along the (Mostly) True Amarr line. I settled in Tash-Murkon because, on a small scale, I initially faced challenges similar to those confronting the Udorians. Those fluid shadows those marvelous schemers have wrapped themselves within provide more opportunity for advancement than the obsidian darkness native to Dam-Torsad. Although my clan's monastic getaway is located on (or at least off the coast of) Athra itself, an ancient boarding school devoted to meditation and swinging swords while perched on wet rocks in glacial tarns could not serve as a proper foundation for rising in Domain "the old fashioned way."

Speaking of the old ways:

Ava Starfire wrote:

To claim that due to some intertribal squabbling means that one Tribe will sell the others into slavery makes about as much sense as claiming that, due to interfamily squabbling, one Holder family will soon hand the others over to the Minmatar.


One Holder family would sell another to the Minmatar in a *heartbeat* - if the opportunity arose and it conferred advantage. I would hesitate to do such a thing, myself, only because it is much better to keep an enemy Holder's family near. However, if the enemy was sufficiently weak and the price was sufficiently high, why of *course*.

Now, as for this: "while the Sebiestor and Krusual may not always see eye-to-eye...."

I love you, baby, you're beautiful, but come on. *That* is how you now characterize a marvelous tale of a Krusual shaman summoning tidal waves to drown the Sebiestor, and storms to drive away the food and starve them?

"Gather around, children, and I shall tell you the story of the Krusual and the Sebiestor: they 'may' not always see eye to eye!"

I hear young voices crying out in terror all the way over here. Waiter, what *is* that racket?

Let's see, a little editing, and...: "The Krusual shaman summoned the waves to drown us, summoned the storms to starve us, and summoned the Devourer's tentacles from the sky to carry us off into the black void of space."

Which version do you think will sell more tickets at the box office?

Some Matari "tribalists" seem perilously close to separating from a fascinating past as part of a futile effort to pretend there are no divisions in the present. The Galois version of tribal rivalries seems a bit more in tune with this emerging narrative: "tribes give us a convenient way to figure out what we are going to eat on any given night."

Perhaps packing up and moving to the Federation would make way for Matari voices that are a bit more *primal*?
Deceiver's Voice
Molok Subclade
#82 - 2012-04-30 04:47:37 UTC
Gosakumori Noh wrote:
Am I, Gosakumori Noh, to be given credit for single handedly altering the historical record to cast aspersions on the Sebiestor and Krusual;

No.
Quote:
or, are you going to concede that actually I know more about your people's history than, apparently, many of your people?

No.

Quote:
Which version do you think will sell more tickets at the box office?

Make the movie first.

Quote:
Perhaps packing up and moving to the Federation would make way for Matari voices that are a bit more *primal*?

Your opinion of your own brilliance does not make it a fact, and yes, many do move to the Federation. Despite what you think, you're not responsible for fixing the problems in the Republic.

I don't think that any would deny divisiveness, whereas a great many agree that being under the rule of the Amarr- in any way, shape or form- is far less appealing.

I'd rather there be a fractured Republic than one ruled by Amarr. I don't trust the Amarr to be any better, and know them to be far worse, than anything my own people can do to ourselves. I love my fellow Minmatar, from whatever tribe or clan, regardless of how they view me. That is something I learned from the only Amarrian I will ever call a friend- and the only person I will ever call a Mentor- and he was far more wise and influential than you or your poisonous ideas will ever be.

Now, back to your corner. Minmatar problems are not your concern. You are no longer my concern.

Good day, and may you one day find true wisdom and insight.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#83 - 2012-04-30 06:30:46 UTC
Oh do shut up, Noh. Your act has gotten stale and quite tedious by now. No one here is enjoying hearing your fractured logic and pseudo-intellectual prattle except you.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2012-04-30 06:54:45 UTC
Pseudo-intellectual is really pushing it. I for one cannot understand why Noh receives such praise for her play with words.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#85 - 2012-04-30 11:55:07 UTC
Gosakumori Noh wrote:
Some Matari "tribalists" seem perilously close to separating from a fascinating past as part of a futile effort to pretend there are no divisions in the present. The Galois version of tribal rivalries seems a bit more in tune with this emerging narrative: "tribes give us a convenient way to figure out what we are going to eat on any given night."

Perhaps packing up and moving to the Federation would make way for Matari voices that are a bit more *primal*?


I never said that our rivalries, our "divisions", do not exist any longer.

I said they're none of your concern. What goes on between my Tribe and the Krusual is, quite simply, between my tribe and the Krusual, and is absolutely none of your business. For the present, the Amarr seem to have given us something far more fun to shoot at than each other, anyway.

As for the second bit... I thought you were better than that.

Once again, I see an Amarrian has proved my notions of them wrong. I once thought you were a reasonable and decent person, and you sink to the level of the Blakes and Fieraches of the cluster with childish insults. Im not even surprised anymore, really.

How typical of your kind.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2012-04-30 12:03:06 UTC
I'm going to be honest, I haven't actually been reading the last half a dozen or so Noh posts I've been responding to.

Responding to pretty accurately, by the way.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
#87 - 2012-04-30 12:50:45 UTC
Limit the Reclaiming?
No.

Focus on putting right our domestic issues at this time?
Yes.

Re-enslaving any of the Matari tribes within the immidiate few generations?
No.

Responding to any unagreed agression or contract violation from the Tribes?
Not with half-measures.
Our righteousness is evident in the failures of the heathen, God keep us from falling prey to their weaknesses.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#88 - 2012-04-30 12:55:39 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Oh do shut up, Noh. Your act has gotten stale and quite tedious by now. No one here is enjoying hearing your fractured logic and pseudo-intellectual prattle except you.



May I respectfully point out that you are not helping your case with such answers ? At best, you deny people the right to express themselves - however one can feel about what has been said - and at worst, you only make yourself look unable to build a proper argument to counter what has been said. If it is so fractured and pseudo-intellectual, what do you have to fear if your answer is well documented and rationaly constructed ? By default, you implied that lady Noh won the argument as soon as you told her to "shut up". You also state that her argument has become stale and tedious, and yet offer no explanation of how you came to that conclusion.

It would have been ten times better for you either to build up a rational reasoning or either not to answer at all. If you think that people look stupid alone without your help, the audience will see through it too. Now that I think of it, you should follow the 10 PR rules of your own leadership, especially rules #8, #9 and #10. They are wise. Rules #1 and #2 are more of a concern for your leadership, I guess.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#89 - 2012-04-30 13:04:45 UTC
I was going to reply to Captain Rella but then I see Lynara had written exactly what I was thinking.

I feel surplus to requirement.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Deceiver's Voice
Molok Subclade
#90 - 2012-04-30 14:05:32 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
May I respectfully point out that you are not helping your case with such answers ?

There are those who have no formal education in rhetoric and debate, Pilot Farel. I for one found the pathos and brevity of her statement quite appealing. I also recognize it for what it is; an expression of frustration.

Given your current and past employment, one cannot help but wonder as to your motivations; your ethos as it applies to this topic. Your attack against the logos of Pilot Rella's retort is indicative of similar frustration as to that expressed by Pilot Rella, non?

I would suggest sticking to the topic, Pilot Farel, and ignoring comments obviously made in the heat of the moment.
Kalaratiri
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#91 - 2012-04-30 14:08:42 UTC
Illuvian wrote:
Lyn Farel,

There is a difference between talking about how a brother may not like his sister's haircut, and talking about how a brother wants to sell his sister into slavery. One is gossip, the other is aspersion and slander.

Ms. Noh,
Political experts have long guessed at the aims of my Tribe, and they have often been incorrect. We have disagreements, but they are disagreements between blood.

You discuss the history of rivalry between Sebiestor and Krusual and then remove from it all historical context. You discuss mistrust and war that occurred before our shared home was invaded, before the Amarr came.

You discuss how some felt that my tribe released technologies to the greater republic for the sole purpose of weakening the Sebiestor tribe. You forget your own history.

The Brutor and Krusual were in favor of reigniting war with the Empire. The Sebiestor and their Tribal allies stood opposed to the idea, and a Sebiestor Tribeswoman stood as Prime Minister of our Republic.

That was then, and political in-fighting should be something that you should be familiar with. So, attempting to describe a political argument as proof of long-term dislike... nay... hatred, is at best the foolish mistake expected of a schoolchild.

However, I doubt you have removed historical context from your argument because of an innocent mistake. Instead you seem to do this quite commonly throughout your arguments here, seeking to make out of whole-cloth a history that fits your narrative view.

It should not surprise us that you attempt to cast the Krusual as a villain in your fiction, after all, your empire was never very successful in "assimilating" us.

The Krusual have stood side-by-side with the Sebiestor, the Brutor, and the Vherokior since the founding of the Republic. You would be a fool to expect that to change.


I like this. Well said.

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#92 - 2012-04-30 15:33:34 UTC
Deceiver's Voice wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
May I respectfully point out that you are not helping your case with such answers ?

There are those who have no formal education in rhetoric and debate, Pilot Farel. I for one found the pathos and brevity of her statement quite appealing. I also recognize it for what it is; an expression of frustration.

Given your current and past employment, one cannot help but wonder as to your motivations; your ethos as it applies to this topic. Your attack against the logos of Pilot Rella's retort is indicative of similar frustration as to that expressed by Pilot Rella, non?

I would suggest sticking to the topic, Pilot Farel, and ignoring comments obviously made in the heat of the moment.


If rhetoric and debate is out of the question, maybe it is better to stick to weapons and combat in space as allowed by CONCORD rules, as crude as it may be. After all, it is often said that actions speak louder than words.

And, of course there is frustration. How can one not be frustrated when reading that kind of comment in any kind of debate ? That debate maye be a good one or a bad one, productive or unproductive, or whatever, but it remains a debate. If people can not stick to the minimum degree of civilisation when expressing themselves on public venues due to an education problem, well, a lack of education and ignorance are not incurable either. One does not have to be a master in rhetorics to adress politely to his pairs.

Also, I tried to be constructive and pointed out what could be improved.

As for my past employment, may I ask what are you refering to ?
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#93 - 2012-04-30 17:18:46 UTC
2012.04.30 04:47

Victim: Gosakumori Noh
Corp: Viziam
Alliance: None
Faction: Amarr Empire
Destroyed: Weak Argument
System: IGS
Security: 1.0
Damage Taken: A Lot

Involved parties:

Name: Deceiver's Voice
Security: 0.0
Corp: Project Daedalid
Alliance: None
Faction: None
Ship: Proper Mindset
Weapon: Rationality
Damage Done: 9001

Destroyed items:

'Noh's Premise' Inefficient Projector Unit

Dropped items:

This Thread
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2012-04-30 17:41:02 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
You are free to discount her as insane if you like, of course. Given how she's been dominating the conversation


That is entirely a matter of opinion. Of course she's going to be the dominant topic of a conversation in a thread discussing her particular brand of lunacy.

Scherezad wrote:
and how none of the opposing arguments have developed or persevered to rebut her - and how she continues despite garnering no support?


That's the convenient thing about lunacy. Given its lack of dependence on such churlish things as logic and substantiation, you really can't rebut or discredit it because it doesn't operate on a level that allows it. Of course, the obvious downside to this is that it also has basically no applicabiltiy to the real world, but in the mind of the lunatic, that's a non-issue.

Scherezad wrote:
I'd have to say that it looks like she's getting exactly the reaction she was hoping for. But, again, feel free to disagree. I don't think she should be taken as lightly as that. That's all.


What she's doing is talking to capsuleers. Capsuleers who by and large disagree with her. While certainly it makes sense that you'd want to sew dissent between the capsuleers supporting an organisation first, given that they're the most dangerous members of it by leaps and bounds, they're also much better-informed than most human beings and thus less inclined to believe the lies she ineptly spins regarding their history.

She might have better luck with the baseliners, but she'd have to adopt a public image other than the decadent, addlebrained Amarrian drunkard desperately out-of-touch with anything other than her own personal delusions. That sort of personality doesn't tend to go over well with the average example of Republic citizenry.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#95 - 2012-04-30 17:43:56 UTC
I don't know who died and elevated Farel and Cael to the moral arbiters of GalNet but, I didn't get the memo. I therefore don't recognize your "authority" to tell me what I should and should not comment upon. The two of you seem to have something personal against me. Fine. Let's settle it in private or in space but, I'm tired of your attacks. You can both go straight to the slaver's hell.

How about you worry more about yourselves and less about me? And while you're at it, climb down from those high horses you're so precariously perched on. The lack of oxygen up there is affecting your brains.

As to my sarcastic response to Noh, I make no apology for it. Some "ideas" are so repugnant, so outlandish and offensive that they have no place in a public forum and don't merit a serious response.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Deceiver's Voice
Molok Subclade
#96 - 2012-04-30 19:33:00 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
If rhetoric and debate is out of the question, maybe it is better to stick to weapons and combat in space as allowed by CONCORD rules, as crude as it may be. After all, it is often said that actions speak louder than words.

I never said it was out of the question, just that you are making more of a comment than you should.

Quote:
Also, I tried to be constructive and pointed out what could be improved.

I applaud this.

Quote:
How can one not be frustrated when reading that kind of comment in any kind of debate ?

Frustration is one of the intended consequences of impassioned pleas.

Quote:
As for my past employment, may I ask what are you refering to ?

You know what I mean, and that is an example of a successful "hook".

Quote:
One does not have to be a master in rhetorics to adress politely to his pairs.

I agree. However I would like to point out one thing. You suggest a perception of equality that perhaps is not there, non?

This is of course all off topic. Pilot Rella has eloquently defended her statements and I would like to withdraw from this discussion. The intricacies of debate and their proper place are perhaps left for other times and places, and I would gladly continue discussing them in private.

I will not do so here.

Good day.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#97 - 2012-04-30 19:57:12 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
I don't know who died and elevated Farel and Cael to the moral arbiters of GalNet


Nobody, to my knowledge.

Anabella Rella wrote:
I therefore don't recognize your "authority" to tell me what I should and should not comment upon.


We have never claimed to hold such authority upon anyone.

Anabella Rella wrote:
The two of you seem to have something personal against me.


I can not answer for Mr Marellus, but I have nothing personal against you. Against your agressive and ignorant manners, though, I might.

Anabella Rella wrote:
Fine. Let's settle it in private or in space but, I'm tired of your attacks.


In private or whatever would be better yes.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#98 - 2012-04-30 23:07:53 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
I don't know who died and elevated Farel and Cael to the moral arbiters of GalNet but, I didn't get the memo. I therefore don't recognize your "authority" to tell me what I should and should not comment upon.


Quote:
Oh do shut up, Noh. Your act has gotten stale and quite tedious by now. No one here is enjoying hearing your fractured logic and pseudo-intellectual prattle except you.


So it's alright for you to speak your mind but if someone else speaks their opinion and it just happens to disagree with you they're just on moral high horses? You're better than such pointless hypocrisy...

Quote:
The two of you seem to have something personal against me. Fine. Let's settle it in private or in space but, I'm tired of your attacks.


And baseless paranoia...

Quote:
You can both go straight to the slaver's hell.


And lowbrow insults.

Quote:
How about you worry more about yourselves and less about me? And while you're at it, climb down from those high horses you're so precariously perched on. The lack of oxygen up there is affecting your brains.


I'm fine thanks, I enjoy being able to freely speak my mind.

Also for the record, I don't have anything personal against you either, but perhaps when you've taken time away from this to get some fresh air and come back, you'll realise what Lynara wrote was doing you a favour.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#99 - 2012-05-01 00:35:21 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
I don't know who died and elevated Farel and Cael to the moral arbiters of GalNet but
Every poster on IGS is the moral arbiter of GalNet...
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#100 - 2012-05-01 01:09:48 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Anabella Rella wrote:
I don't know who died and elevated Farel and Cael to the moral arbiters of GalNet but
Every poster on IGS is the moral arbiter of GalNet...

Perhaps, but only my opinions actually matter. For what it is worth though, Anabella Rella's comments were by far the most endearing, something about telling slavers to goto hell is just fun. Sadly people probably put me in that group for my loyalties....