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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Proposal to Restart the New Eden Racing League. EVETV Coverage confirmed.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#21 - 2012-04-28 20:01:28 UTC
Whatever you do, make sure you run a couple of races before the main, publicized event. Otherwise, you will probably run into some embarrassing organizational problems and the whole thing will be a mess. It is much, much more tricky to organize a race than most people imagine. You do not only need the know-how; you also need routine.

Elsebeth Rhiannon
formely of Venture Racing
Erik Finnegan
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
#22 - 2012-04-29 07:53:31 UTC
Sub-warp racing...best racing.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#23 - 2012-04-29 08:59:14 UTC
I find subwarp races rather boring myself. To fly, that is - they are fun to watch.
Braka Hareka
#24 - 2012-04-29 15:24:07 UTC
I echo the points made above, but if I may direct you towards looking here
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=102496&find=unread

Not wanting to toot my own horn but perhaps you could take some of my idea's?

"One death is a tragedy, a million deaths, a statistic"

Joseph Stalin
Benilopax
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-04-30 13:55:32 UTC
Braka Hareka wrote:
I echo the points made above, but if I may direct you towards looking here
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=102496&find=unread

Not wanting to toot my own horn but perhaps you could take some of my idea's?


Very interesting ideas, a few problems with some of them, as having people join a corp closes off the race to a lot of people and the kind of prize money you are talking about would be difficult to gather with the current popularity of the concept.

I keep trying however, in talks with a few people about making it happen.


...
Braka Hareka
#26 - 2012-04-30 16:01:03 UTC
Keep trying sir, I only put forward the points as speculation. Message me in game, I would be more than willing to help.

"One death is a tragedy, a million deaths, a statistic"

Joseph Stalin
Niraia
Starcakes
Cynosural Field Theory.
#27 - 2012-05-01 12:14:43 UTC
Hi Benilopax,

Lyn Farel wrote:
I find it interesting. I however still have doubts on what will be done to prevent the unfortunate last events that basically lead the NERA to its end ?


Unless this can be adequately addressed, there's no reason to proceed. I'm also not sure why a self-proclaimed "fat and rich" mogul should be seeking donations at this early stage.

However, if you can work it out, it'd be nice to talk sometime. I'd personally enjoy watching the races, too.

♥
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#28 - 2012-05-01 16:00:53 UTC
What events lead the NERA to it's end? I've read that the organizer didn't enjoy organizing anymore, but I've not really understood what "unfortunate events" occurred before that.

Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation

Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#29 - 2012-05-01 17:08:52 UTC
The explanation I was given when I last asked was that some parties believed in following the letter and spirit of the rules, but that certain other parties didn't care as much about the spirit of the rules.

It didn't go over very well when the first group found out about the second group violating the spirit of those rules.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#30 - 2012-05-01 17:55:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
One of the teams choosed to probe out the entire planned region to find the waypoint containers and bookmark them before several races. A few ideas tried after that outrage to propose a starting "check" container at 0km (out of warp) in addition to the other containers to prevent that tactic to give a decisive advantage to the teams using it, but was rejected by a lot of pilots that wanted more "uncertainty" on the position of the containers on the track.

Another issue was also that every class of ship was running together, making the frigate and especially the assault ship classes more tied to their interceptor wingmates, providing them warp in points (preventing them to run all the way to each container), thus creating what was called "warp trains" where AFs and frigates were merely warping each time to the interceptors of their respective teams. Some pilots liked that and found the concept of getting a good warp train quite hard and interesting, while others found that it was not anymore about flying and racing by yourself, but just warping to their friends that made all the work.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#31 - 2012-05-01 19:32:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
From my point of view, it goes like this:

In the history of the league, several times some team came up with a clever tactic that others had not thought of. In many cases, they told about it to Gyra in secret, who then ruled that they can use the tactic since it is not against the current rules. When the tactic became generally known, however, she sometimes made a rule forbidding it, because everyone using it would break the league.

Whenever this happened, the people who did not benefit from the clever tactic felt that the other side had "broken the spirit of the league" and got really upset, being very nasty both to other teams who then were nasty back, and towards the league organizers.

This happened one time too many, and the organizer finally got enough of it.

Let me clarify that I have been on both sides of that over the course of my racing career. There was a time when I was the one using the clever trick and did not see what the **** the people flaming us where about. I got very indignant and attributed it only on them being upset that we won a lot. There was also a time when another team pulled a clever trick against mine, and I have to say I am not at all proud of how I behaved then, either.

In this latest I was neutral: I felt it was a clever trick and it was ok that the team inventing it got the benefit of going through all the trouble; I also felt that forbidding it when it became general knowledge was a good idea because it being in general use would have broken the league. I also have to say I get the organizer's decision to quit: the best racers are people who care about winning (no matter what we claim about sportsmanship and stuff), and they get really heated if they feel they have been "cheated". That sort of drama is usually not on anyone's list of Top 10 Favorite Things To Do On Their Freetime.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#32 - 2012-05-01 19:44:56 UTC
Excuse me to say so, Mr Rhiannon, but what you say does not make the smallest sense to me. According to you, it is ok for someone to use a new trick they elaborated by being clever, but it is not when it starts to get used by everyone ?

Also, there was nothing innovative at all in that specific tactic. I myself thought about it several times as soon as I was running my third race. It was just not possible to do it considering the time and the means involved for a single person, but that would have been definitly doable for a team with more generous numbers. It was pretty obvious that the track could be scouted before the races. It was not a matter of innovative tactics here, it was a matter of daring.
Erik Finnegan
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
#33 - 2012-05-02 05:16:34 UTC
Sounds like a racing concept that also....hm, favors such tactical trouble ? At least it is hard to referee.

Subwarp racing never saw such discussions. I enjoyed the concept : instructional video
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#34 - 2012-05-02 14:21:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Lyn Farel wrote:
Excuse me to say so, Mr Rhiannon, but what you say does not make the smallest sense to me. According to you, it is ok for someone to use a new trick they elaborated by being clever, but it is not when it starts to get used by everyone?

If someone invents (or puts the attention to) implementing some specific new tactic, yes, I feel it is fair they benefit from it for a few races (because it was clever, or it was effort and they were co-ordinated enough), but if it is league-breaking in general use, I also feel it is fair enough to change the rules to exclude it later. I also think this fairness holds in cases where the people using the tactic notify the league organizer about it and confirm that it is allowed - the situation is different if they do it in secret also from the organizer.

I believe in this case it is confirmed that the organizer was aware of the tactic being used. The reason that lead to the end of the league was not at all, as you implied, that some people wanted to follow the spirit and some the letter of the rules. I believe the reason was the drama that followed, and people's (on both side of the debate) abysmal behavior against the organizer about the calls she made. As a reward for what she did for us, she got people throwing tantrums if she does not do it the way they want.

That you did not have the co-ordination to organize for the scouting, nor the daring to ask the organizer yourself if that is allowed, is your loss. It does not make you a better person or a fairer racer. Trying to imply that people who did were somehow less "in the spirit of the league" is exactly the kind of holier-than-thou drama that I believe broke the whole thing.

But as I said - been there, done that, myself too. (In the covert co-operation between teams incident, for those who remember that far back.) I wish I hadn't, but it's quite too late for that now. Setting up a league is a hell of a job. Getting the kind of crap for it that the organizer has been getting for years... well, you get the picture. Serves us right to have it cancelled, to be honest.

Else
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2012-05-02 17:57:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:

If someone invents (or puts the attention to) implementing some specific new tactic, yes, I feel it is fair they benefit from it for a few races (because it was clever, or it was effort and they were co-ordinated enough), but if it is league-breaking in general use, I also feel it is fair enough to change the rules to exclude it later. I also think this fairness holds in cases where the people using the tactic notify the league organizer about it and confirm that it is allowed - the situation is different if they do it in secret also from the organizer.

I believe in this case it is confirmed that the organizer was aware of the tactic being used. The reason that lead to the end of the league was not at all, as you implied, that some people wanted to follow the spirit and some the letter of the rules. I believe the reason was the drama that followed, and people's (on both side of the debate) abysmal behavior against the organizer about the calls she made. As a reward for what she did for us, she got people throwing tantrums if she does not do it the way they want.

That you did not have the co-ordination to organize for the scouting, nor the daring to ask the organizer yourself if that is allowed, is your loss. It does not make you a better person or a fairer racer. Trying to imply that people who did were somehow less "in the spirit of the league" is exactly the kind of holier-than-thou drama that I believe broke the whole thing.

But as I said - been there, done that, myself too. (In the covert co-operation between teams incident, for those who remember that far back.) I wish I hadn't, but it's quite too late for that now. Setting up a league is a hell of a job. Getting the kind of crap for it that the organizer has been getting for years... well, you get the picture. Serves us right to have it cancelled, to be honest.

Else


That logics still eludes me. I was well aware that the organizer did not forbid the use of that tactic, where it made its use perfectly legitimate. What I am saying is that how this choice to firstly allow it has been made is beyond me. As much as I have not been implicated in the ensuing drama that followed, I still think that this was a poor choice, and very bad form. Considering the incredible advantage it gave to the team using the tactic, and the impossibility for all but the very large teams to implement it at each race, it is still beyond me how it continued in secret. Also, this very tactic signed the obvious end of the purpose of anchoring waypoint containers elsewhere than on the warp-in point, except being a reward for people with the means to shortcut it. And a reward giving such an advantage is not a reward, it is a game breaker. So, according to you it might be better to forbid the use of a tactic only when it starts to break the league. Well, it broke it as soon as it was put in application here. It hsould have been forbidden since the day it was discovered.

You also seem to believe that I feel personnaly offended by all of this, which is totally silly. You will not find any records of me saying otherwise or taking part in the whole outrage, because there is none. I am merely saying that I find the whole reasoning absurd.

And I never implied that some people wanted to follow the spirit and some the letter of the rules.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#36 - 2012-05-02 19:33:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
I am afraid I cannot explain my logic any better than I already did, so if you do not get if I guess we have to settle for simply disagreeing on the subject.

Note though that the team did not get any advantage that another team could not have gotten. You even yourself say that the thought occurred to you too. You could have very well done the same thing they did; you chose not to. Had you chosen otherwise, either you would have gotten the same advantage, or the organizer would have decided then to forbid it for everyone. As the end result, the other team would not have gained on you.

This is a situation very different from getting an advantage that you had no possibility to gain.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#37 - 2012-05-03 01:15:00 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Note though that the team did not get any advantage that another team could not have gotten. You even yourself say that the thought occurred to you too. You could have very well done the same thing they did; you chose not to. Had you chosen otherwise, either you would have gotten the same advantage, or the organizer would have decided then to forbid it for everyone. As the end result, the other team would not have gained on you.

This is a situation very different from getting an advantage that you had no possibility to gain.


Wrong. Several teams were made up of one or two people only. It was physically impossible for such small teams to scout an entire region in the time between the setup of the track and the race itself. It was not even a matter of choosing for them.

I will try to put it again differently : considering that most of the pilots were strongly opposed to that kind of tactics - they considered for most that racing was about racing, and not scouting a track that was supposed to stay hidden in the first place (I am merely stating what they thought here) - it was very unwise for the organizer to allow the use of such tactics nevertheless with the knowledge of that situation. I would say this was not far from being suicidal, actually. And it apparently was.

The wisest choice would have been not to allow it. If the team that used that trick asked beforehand, it was to stick to the rules, so they would have accepted that decision.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#38 - 2012-05-03 05:53:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Lyn Farel wrote:
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Note though that the team did not get any advantage that another team could not have gotten. You even yourself say that the thought occurred to you too. You could have very well done the same thing they did; you chose not to. Had you chosen otherwise, either you would have gotten the same advantage, or the organizer would have decided then to forbid it for everyone. As the end result, the other team would not have gained on you.

This is a situation very different from getting an advantage that you had no possibility to gain.


Wrong. Several teams were made up of one or two people only. It was physically impossible for such small teams to scout an entire region in the time between the setup of the track and the race itself. It was not even a matter of choosing for them.

I will try to put it again differently : considering that most of the pilots were strongly opposed to that kind of tactics - they considered for most that racing was about racing, and not scouting a track that was supposed to stay hidden in the first place (I am merely stating what they thought here) - it was very unwise for the organizer to allow the use of such tactics nevertheless with the knowledge of that situation. I would say this was not far from being suicidal, actually. And it apparently was.

The wisest choice would have been not to allow it. If the team that used that trick asked beforehand, it was to stick to the rules, so they would have accepted that decision.

1) There is nothing in the league that forces small teams to remain small, instead of allying with each other. Again, being too small to effectively co-operate was your choice (and mine, but still, a choice). Co-operation has always been a part of the league - e.g. using team-mates as warp-in to cover for botches was pretty much essential.
2) Again, I do not think the league died to the call the organizer made. People were willing to continue racing after it, after all. It is not like there were a major pilot walk-out or anything. It died to the organizer quitting, in my understanding due to the drama and complaints of "totally destroying the spirit" being the reward they got for the hard work they put into the league. I think that was a shame - but generally, judging from the drama I saw and still see, quite deserved.
Graelyn
Aeternus Command Academy
#39 - 2012-05-03 07:16:10 UTC
Anyhow, it sounds like the general tone in here is "We should have something nice, as long as someone else will do the hard work that it requires."

Cardinal Graelyn

Amarr Loyalist of the Year - YC113
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#40 - 2012-05-03 07:45:10 UTC
Graelyn wrote:
Anyhow, it sounds like the general tone in here is "We should have something nice, as long as someone else will do the hard work that it requires."


Lo and behold, the saga of the capsuleer.

**Vherokior **
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